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Valves rattling starting off

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2.7K views 32 replies 12 participants last post by  capngeo  
#1 ·
wassup homies :wazzup:
Nothing special here, I just have Vmods(stock ones), Topless K&N, SE Stage1 Download for SE Slip-Ons & my new-eBay-found- PC3 USB.

I'm rolling with the " M809-021 Main Street Motorcycles modified stock mufflers, Stage 1 ECM and Screamin Eagle air filter " PowerCommander.com map.

I noticed yesterday -- when trying to get somewhere to put air in my front tire that had a 3/8" screw w/washer in it -- that she was valve-rattling a noticable amount while pulling away from stops at the low rpm's, minimal throttle.
I'm a heavier guy, 230-240 lbs, maybe this map's just not enough fuel down low??? I'd hate to hear "you gotta give her more rpms" & have to start pro-street-leaving everytime I pull out somewhere...

Any suggestions peeps???
 
#2 ·
Anything under 3K on the RPM's sounds like the valves are going on strike. I keep th eengine speed in th 4~5K range. At these Rev's the take off's are not THAT aggressive, fun, but not aggressive!

Oh BTW...I'm running 100% stock on the drive train, no mods at all. (if I start screwing around that way, I know I'll mess something up real BAD!)

Steve
 
#3 ·
Are you sure it wasn't the belt touching the guard or maybe even low octoane fuel pinging?
If the valve lash is too big then you would hear it especially in idle, rather then during accelerating.

edit: try and richen the mixture up a bit and see if it helps.
 
#4 ·
thanks for reply -
no, man, it's valve rattle. I'd venture to say richer mix down low (preferably a better PC3USB map) would cure most if not all rattles.
4 - 5k rpms is a helluva lotta gas for just pulling off - like around parking lots, advancing in line getting up to a stop sign or some skritt. ya know, parade duty.:wazzup:
 
#5 ·
Sounds like possible preignition or detonation to me.

This low rpm "valve rattle" you refer to, just what mechanically is taking place? Just how do you make the valves rattle within their guides, or defeat the valve springs, or from following the camshaft lobe profile? Help me out because I don't buy into it......
 
#7 ·
I run Shell 93 octane. Would this allow knocking?
You're kidding right? -- Injectors making a rattle like an 83 buick w/250 thousand miles climbing a mountain?
I've just always heard it coined as 'valve rattle' - 'knocking' - 'pinging' ???
 
#8 ·
Could be a language thing (I'm English) - I've never heard pinging called valve rattle, but whatever, we are clearly talking about the same thing. Is this when you nail it at low revs, or just moving around gently?

And yes, the injectors do make a lot of noise. It could easily be mistaken for pinging, in my opinion.

If it really is pinging, you'll kill it quite quickly doing that, again in my opinion. If it is only when you cane it at low revs, don't do it. If it is doing it even when ridden gently, there is something badly wrong.

US octane ratings are different, so I dunno about 93 octane, but I would do two quick tests: 1) run it on higher octane petrol, if that reduces it, then it is indeed knock and you need to sort it quick, and 2) trying sticking the lid back on the airbox, and if THAT largely gets rid of it, that's injectors, ignore it.

Just my :2cents:
 
#9 ·
'tanks for your :2cents:
I'll try the octane boost / continue trying to find a better map - if can find anyone else in agreement with that theory.
yeah, it's just at a little over idle (1750 - 2500rpms) she'll noisy up.
 
#10 ·
Just noticed you say "minimal throttle". That's not knocking through a slightly iffy map. That's either harmless injector noise or something badly wrong. What were you doing for fuelling before you put the PCIII on? Or did you just do all the mods at once?
 
#13 ·
ahh, was w/slightly modded (I mean slightly, just some 3/8"holes drilled thru the center baffles) SE slip-ons, topless K$N, with the Stage1 stealer flash for SE's.....so, just a Stage1 flash w/SE's.
And yes, I've just added the PC3USB & switched out to the stock Vmods (a much better choice for noise :D ).
 
#11 ·
Your a large guy you need to use more revs, V-Rods ride more like a sports bike than a big twin which can take off near idle. Petrol Shell is a high density fuel and if you do not have o2 sensors it may rum off. 2 octane rating is the resistance to knocking not a power BTU rating.

Valves rattle if they are loose not cause your bike is lean!

Try a different fuel and some more revs start around 2500 and see, Also being topless you do hear much more of the noise.

Have you had the bike on a Dyno with a compentant operator and check the AFR ?
 
#12 ·
I'm a large guy, but the bike still pulls away at low revs on low throttle openings round car parks and things (which is when he says his is rattling). Like you, I reckon he's hearing injectors.
 
#14 ·
Go over to the EFI Forum and find a map more to your liking. I would not trust those PW maps as they are pretty generic. Loads of maps in the EFI forum. Here is a link

Click Here
 
#16 ·
thank u there Rusty, this is the EFI forum btw, but I wouldn't know which one to try man.
am I anywhere near right on this thinking more fuel down low will reduce what I'm hearing?
 
#17 ·
Octane is a octane rating index that measures a fuels resistance to know RON / BTU ate the power a given amount of fuel delivers.

Higher octane fuel usually has more RON Look at Ethanol it has low BTU but very High octane resisatance to knock.
 
#18 ·
I feel compelled to enlighten a few, I have a hard time dealing with the lack of knowledge. First off, a bit of background. I am an operations supervisor at the last grass roots oil refinery built in the USA, 27 years there. We produce about 6 million gallons of gasoline alone a day. I have worked in several areas of the plant, ran a couple DCS consoles, produced lots of fuel, gasoline, diesel, propane, butane, asphalt, fuel oil, ect. Also have hot rodded/raced cars and motorcycles off and on over the years, assembled a few engines, have a pretty good understanding of how an internal combustion engine works, converts or burns fuel to generate horsepower or energy. RON is a measure of octane, Research octane. There also is MON, motor octane. The octane advertised at the pump is RON+MON divided by 2, another words an average of the 2 ratings. RON is the result of our very expensive analyzer analysis, MON is a specialized 1 cylinder engine in the lab where the fuel is run and ignition timing and/or the engine's actual real time compression ratio is varied until the point of detonation to measure and determine the MON result. Generally fuels with a higher RON or octane have slightly less potential energy or BTUs than a lower octane fuel. So, another words if your engine manufacturer says the engine is designed to operate on 87 octane fuel, using 93 will don nothing for you really and may actually result in very slightly lower fuel mileage based on its energy content. Propane has a much higher octane than gasoline and when an engine is converted to burn propane, its mileage drops considerably because propane doesn't have nearly the energy or BTU content of gasoline, less carbon molecules, long chain hydrocarbons in the propane versus typical gasoline. Race fuels with an octane of say 115 burned in a everyday car designed for 87 will return lower mpg than a quality 87 octane fuel.

And about the "valve rattle" crap. Actually when the compression cycle takes place in a 4 cycle engine, the vrod engine for example, and the air/fuel mixture is ignited just before TDC, both the exhaust and intake valves are closed at that time. The exhaust valve is next to open but about 180° of crank rotation after fuel ignition/TDC. Gasoline when ignited in an engine under compression burns very quickly, actually a flame front. When the air fuel mixture detonates versus burn, hence the noise, the so called "valve rattle". The noise is not the valves rattling as they are fully closed and on their seats, but the actual echo of the detonation or explosion within a cylinder, within the engine block and its components. These events are very negative for an engine as the explosive forces try to halt the rising piston before TDC occurs. You see, the fuel ignition or spark plug firing occurs 10-35° before TDC occurs, depending on engine rpm, load and other data references. Sustaining such detonation over time can actually fracture or burn pistons, the rings, cylinder walls, damage the rod and crank bearings. Damage occurs much quicker on forced induction engines, such as turbocharged or supercharged engines, due in part to the higher effective peak cylinder pressures versus a normally aspirated engine, hence the need for higher octane fuel in turbocharged or blown engines to prevent detonation and damage, and why damage can occur so quickly in a blown engine with insufficient fuel octane, or incorrect ignition timing settings or faults, or overly lean air/fuel ratios.

Also, liquid gasoline does not burn, combust, or oxidize. The liquid gasoline must be vaporized either mechanically by the injector, or by heat of combustion. Vapors or gases combust/oxidize, liquids do not.
I could go on and on about the subject and with more detail, but this is getting lengthy. Hope it enlightens someone anyways.
 
#19 ·
yeah I'm pretty light now
so you say it's injector noise too huh coo-nass?
 
#20 ·
Homie, you are right about one thing. You were "light" before your initial post at the top, and your still "light", as you say just above.
 
#23 ·
so you know about gas. got it.

some bengal tigers gonna be a lil light in the pants too after that A kickin the Tide be dealin out this afternoon
 
#25 ·
Made a point of checking this yesterday.

My V-Rod will pull away from just off idle on a gentle throttle with no complaints, and while the injectors are loud, they are not loud enough pulling away to be mistaken for knock (they are loudest at low rev cruise, when they COULD be mistaken for knock).

In the meantime, if the OP is running a stage one flash plus fueller and map, it will be running rich, not lean, so no way is it running lean enough to knock pulling away gently, and if it was then it would be going bang very soon.

I suggest the OP removes the fueller briefly just to check that isn't the cause of something nasty, and assuming it isn't goes round checking for something loose or rubbing. Exhaust heat shields would be a good bet, followed by the clips still being left on the airbox lower.

If the noise is REALLY coming from the engine (which I very much doubt) then check for a massive air leak of some kind and then take to a dealer urgently.
 
#26 ·
Also, the stock ECM has the ion sensing spark knock detector and will cut back on the timing should any pre ignition occur, so you rarely get pinging with a stock V Rod setup. My guess is belt slap, check your belt tension, or injectors.

Mike
 
#29 ·
dy-no........
dy-no........
it's off to dyno I go
found a recommendation to a local joker w/a dyno close to here. maybe he's easy on the wallet, right?
I tried half a dose of some octane boost w/same as always, Shell premium 93 yesterday for a few miles, but in a hurry to get home to the game kickoff, didn't do a few consecutive stop-n-go's around parking lots or get a chance at stop signs. the couple stop signs I did stop at, I'd ease out w/ her as close to idle as I could leave her w/out stalling, then load some fuel off in her - never heard a rattle.
wtf:wazzup:

louis - appreciate the thoughts & you checking on this man
parkus - I did man, I used the "-021, Main Street Modified....".
Elrod - yeah, probably combo of not-so-perfect tune & lugging.

more soon fellers & I do appreciate your input.
d@m I'd never thought injectors would talk that much! anyhoooo
 
#30 ·
Shell Premium is plenty of octane. Good luck on the Dyno run. Make sure they do both cylinders. The cheap man's way is to do 1 cylinder and hope the second is the same.
Get a printout of the A/F ratios 0 - 9000 rpms.
 
#31 ·
I wonder why nobody suggested a lack of oil pressure causing "valve rattle"