[Cali-V]

Glz:
I'm down, PM me to work out the details...
Cali-V

 

[vroddrew]

I first became familiar with H.I.D. lighting through my bicycle training. When your training regimen required 40-60 miles per day, and you had a full-time day job, early spring and late fall training rides pretty much meant you needed a good light on your bike to avoid becoming roadkill. And H.I.D. lights have some real advantages for bicyclists: they are MUCH more efficient at turning electric power into usable light than incandescent bulbs, which typically turn 85% of that energy into heat. There is a good early description of the H.I.D. process here .

With that said, I'm not totally sold on the H.I.D. process for motorcycles. For one thing, we aren't as concerned about battery life and efficiency of converting power into light for a very good reason: Our motorcycles have a very handy device called an alternator that generates all the electric power we need for lighting purposes "for free".

Secondly, while we might wish that we could mount searchlights, etc. on the front of our bikes, the fact of the matter is that both the law and other road users would probably (and rightly) object if we did so. The brightness and direction of lights fitted to motor vehicles is pretty tightly regulated by government regulation. I've heard of more than one person getting a traffic ticket for operating his high beams in a situation where he probably should not have done so.

The third main concern I have with the H.I.D. process is the lack of a second (high) beam bulb. If you've ever had a bulb burn out (and trust me - they do) its sort of nice to have a second beam to help you see the road on your way back home. (I'm guessing a police officer would be more sympathetic to me operating my bike with the high beam on if I could show him that my low beam was inoperative.)

I agree that it is a neat (and potentially useful) technology. But until I see more development for use in motorcycle applications, I'm going to steer clear.

 

[Kennedy]

Food for Thought... Think about what you're doing.

I first became familiar with H.I.D. lighting through my bicycle training. When your training regimen required 40-60 miles per day, and you had a full-time day job, early spring and late fall training rides pretty much meant you needed a good light on your bike to avoid becoming roadkill. And H.I.D. lights have some real advantages for bicyclists: they are MUCH more efficient at turning electric power into usable light than incandescent bulbs, which typically turn 85% of that energy into heat. There is a good early description of the H.I.D. process here .

With that said, I'm not totally sold on the H.I.D. process for motorcycles. For one thing, we aren't as concerned about battery life and efficiency of converting power into light for a very good reason: Our motorcycles have a very handy device called an alternator that generates all the electric power we need for lighting purposes "for free".

Secondly, while we might wish that we could mount searchlights, etc. on the front of our bikes, the fact of the matter is that both the law and other road users would probably (and rightly) object if we did so. The brightness and direction of lights fitted to motor vehicles is pretty tightly regulated by government regulation. I've heard of more than one person getting a traffic ticket for operating his high beams in a situation where he probably should not have done so.

The third main concern I have with the H.I.D. process is the lack of a second (high) beam bulb. If you've ever had a bulb burn out (and trust me - they do) its sort of nice to have a second beam to help you see the road on your way back home. (I'm guessing a police officer would be more sympathetic to me operating my bike with the high beam on if I could show him that my low beam was inoperative.)

I agree that it is a neat (and potentially useful) technology. But until I see more development for use in motorcycle applications, I'm going to steer clear.

Drew has some good points here:

First, some things to consider:

1) HID "retrofit kits" like on xenon depot and proxenon are completely illegal in the US... The can be sold under "off-road use only" premise. By no means am I safety enginner, but i spend enough time on the Volkswagen and Xterra automotive forums to have seen this come up MANY times. It seems that these kits violate Federal Motor Vehicle Safety Standard 108... Here's an email response from an NHTSA safety engineer:
and here is an email from an nhsta safety compliance engineer, sampled from vwvortex.com

"Thank you for your inquiry. There have been no new changes to our lighting regulations that would suddenly make "HID aftermarket systems" illegal. However, many "HID conversions" that exist on the market today may be in violation of our safety standards that have been in force for many years. The recent flurry of internet discussion related to HID conversions may have started because the agency recently initiated 5 investigations with several regulated parties concerning the compliance of the components they were selling in these types of kits.

In laymans terms, anyone offering for sale an HID light source that has been modified to fit into a headlamp originally designed for an H1, H3, H7, H9, H11, H13, HB1(aka 9004), HB2 (aka 9003 or H4), HB3 (aka 9005), HB4 (aka 9006), HB5 (aka 9007), HIR1, or HIR2, is likely to be violating 49 U.S.C. 30112. This is because it is highly unlikely that these replacement light sources could comply with FMVSS No. 108, paragraph S7.7, which requires that replaceable light sources comply with certain electrical and dimensional specifications.

I do not have the authority to make determinations of compliance, and the above statements are just my personal opinion. However, the agency has evaluated one example of an HID conversion kit and published its opinion in November 2002. A copy of this opinion can be found at http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/....html. Furthermore, the agency currently has 6 investigations open with sellers of HID conversion kits, and two active recalls of HID conversions manufactured by the American Products Company (APC) and RM Racing.

The date that you reference, August 15, 2003, is the due date for many of the company's under investigation to respond to our inquiries. Failure to respond may result in a civil penalty of up to $5,000 per day. Furthermore, the maximum civil penalty for the sale of noncomplying motor vehicle equipment is $5,000 per violation. Thus, if a regulated party were found to have sold noncomplying replaceable light sources and ballasts in the form of a kit, the maximum possible penalty could be as high as $20,000 for each kit (e.g., two light sources and two ballasts) with the maximum penalty for a related series of violations of up to $15,000,000.

If you require any further information, please do not hesitate to contact me again.

Regards.

Mike Cole
Safety Compliance Engineer

National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
Office of Vehicle Safety Compliance
Mail Code: NVS-222, Room 6111
400 7th Street, SW
Washington, DC 20590

2) HID retrofits are NOT NEARLY as effective as headlights designed for thier use. Usually HID Xenon lights utilize projector style lenses to safely channel the light out in front of the vehicle. The common reflector based housing coupled with HID bulbs NOT designed for those housings, result in an enormous amount of glare as well as an enormous dazlle effeect to oncoming traffic.
Ever been riding, and get blinded by a car you thought had it's high beam on?... I'm pretty sure that would be a rice boy kid with a $500 HID conversion in his car.

No doubt they put more light on the road, but they also put it in your and other peoples faces, as well as break the law.

The Vicory Vegas has an OEM HID headlight option that I would love to see... and experiment with. I'd also like to see what the good Dr. has in store.

The BPP kit is exactly as described above, a $500 xenondepot kit cut in half.

As for "High beams"... My VW Jetta has European specified OEM HID lights that I had imported (HID aren't available in the US for the Jetta). The are entire headlight housings that utilize projector lenses (like on bling escalades, and MB/BMWs). Traditionally, HID's are the low beams, and the high beams are a standard halogen. The only difference, is that in Europe (and I think this is also true for US Spec legal HID), the High beam stay on with the lows... I KNOW that ballast ignited HID lights DO NOT like to be flicked on and off, thus if you integrate a retrofit kit inot your bike, you should rewire your harness to prevent the low beam from going out when high beams are engaged. There's no faster way to fry the ballast... Of course, with HID bulbs, you RARELY need high beams.

Not saying I won't try one of these out, but I want all of us to be aware of the implications...

Just some food for thought.

 

[Ketsugo]

You absolutely must have the HID source in a proper projector housing.

The best way to do this is to visit the scrap yards. I have a friend who transplanted the HID projectors from a wrecked BMW into his Honda Passport (mini-SUV). He ended up mounting the entire assembly behind the Honda's headlight glass. The results are great -- as you would expect.


John

 

[vilzrod]

whats our alternative NOT going with HID"S???? Anyone know of a great bulb replacent that won't burn up are electrical and h/l??? and is a much stronger source of light???

 

[gar]

Hold on guys, I’m not sure the projector lens and HID lights must go hand and hand. Projector lenses have become the Germans (and a few Japanese) manufactures preferred way of aiming light to the road but may of today’s new cars offer HID lights without the projector lens. My SUV had the option of HID lights but either way it comes with projector lenses.

No matter what light source is used, aiming them properly and in the right setting (mainly reflector housing) will produce a headlight that does not blind on-coming traffic.

One last note; The concern about being "illegal in the US." You are correct, most changes to the OEM equipment is not legal. If we apply that rule to all parts of the bike, heavycycles.com brake lights and turn signals would also be outlawed. I think we all agree, illegal or not, his products are a clear improvement to the bikes visibility and safety.

 

[mjw930]

To take John's comment a bit further, the light source needs to be identical in position and size to the OEM bulb for the reflector housing to work correctly or you get the effects mentioned in Drew and Kennedy's posts. There are HID upgrades that are sold as complete units that use reflector housings, Philips make a series of conversion kits that include both the bulb, ballast and housing.

One thing that usually get's screwed up when a bulb is re-based is the light source focus. At least one of the vendors I've seen makes a pretty strong argument that their re-based lamps retain the correct focal point. If true then these should not cause undue light scatter.

Remember people, Halogen lamps were illegal in the US back in the 70's because they weren't sealed beams. It had nothing to do with the properties of the light but simply the construction of the bulb. (they claimed that unsealed beams allowed for corrosion on the reflectors and a reduction in light. I ran Euro Halogens for years and never had a problem.

BTW, an alternative to the HID bulb replacement is a good set of 85 watt driving lights

 

[awtrott]

I too have been trying to think of an inexpensive solution, and is willing to try a higher wattage lamps, but I am concerned about damaging the electrical system. Does anyone know the maximum wattage allowed for our MC, that will not blow the fuse or worst melt the wire harness and connected components?

 

[Zijspan]

Does anyone know the maximum wattage allowed for our MC, that will not blow the fuse or worst melt the wire harness and connected components?

The wiring and fuses should have no problem with an 85 watt headlight. I'm running TWO 85 watt headlights on the stock wiring and stock 15 amp fuse. No smoke yet!

You didn't exactly ask about this, but here's another piece of the pie. Can the generator/regulator handle the extra wattage of an 85 watt bulb (compared to the stock 65 watt bulb)? My service manual indicates the generator/regulator can provide 22 amps @ 1200 rpm, and 36 amps @ 3500 rpm. If we assume the low rpm case, and lets say 13 volts, we get (22 amps) x (13 volts) = 286 watts. At the higher 3600 rpm we get 468 watts. Ok, that alone is plenty for an 85 watt bulb, but first we must subtract for the tail/running lights, ECM/TSSM/IM/Spark/FuelPump, and two radiator fans. My quick check suggests the fans may be as high as 85 watts each (ouch). The tail/running lights should be less than 30 watts total (don't stand on the brake, and run the turn signals all day), and the ECM/TSSM/... is under 1 watt (mine measures 0.87 watts when the fuel pump is running). So if this is correct, we have:
85 watts (fan 1)
85 watts (fan 2)
30 watts (tail/running lights)
1 watt (ECM/TSSM/...)
___________________
= 201 watts (without headlight)

Now, if we add an 85 watt headlight (assuming high and low beams are not on at the same time), we get 201+85=286 watts. Oops, we are exactly at the 286 watt limit if the engine is idling, and the fans are running (without brake light and turn signal). BUT, we are well under the 468 watts if the engine is at or above the 3600rpm point (riding). Now, I'm probably a bit high on the fans, so in reality, it's probably fine even at idle. And, I'm guessing you would be in quite a unique situation if you leave your bike idling for a LONG time (tens of minutes or hours), and the fans are running the whole time (VERY hot day). So, I would assume (based on these calculations) that the generator/regulator can easily handle an 85 watt headlight.

The "real" HID lights consume far less power (half or better) than standard bulbs, so they would improve the power margin even though they produce more light.

My bike has FOUR fans, and TWO 85 watt headlights. So far I have had no problems. But then again, like Kaz, I don't sit around idling much!

http://HogWildRacing.com

 

[awtrott]

The wiring and fuses should have no problem with an 85 watt headlight. I'm running TWO 85 watt headlights on the stock wiring and stock 15 amp fuse. No smoke yet!

You didn't exactly ask about this, but here's another piece of the pie. Can the generator/alternator handle the extra wattage of an 85 watt bulb (compared to the stock 65 watt bulb)? My service manual indicates the generator/regulator can provide 22 amps @ 1200 rpm, and 36 amps @ 3500 rpm. If we assume the low rpm case, and lets say 13 volts, we get (22 amps) x (13 volts) = 286 watts. At the higher 3600 rpm we get 468 watts. Ok, that alone is plenty for an 85 watt bulb, but first we must subtract for the tail/running lights, ECM/TSSM/IM/Spark/FuelPump, and two radiator fans. My quick check suggests the fans may be as high as 85 watts each (ouch). The tail/running lights should be less than 30 watts total (don't stand on the brake, and run the turn signals all day), and the ECM/TSSM/... is under 1 watt (mine measures 0.87 watts when the fuel pump is running). So if this is correct, we have:
85 watts (fan 1)
85 watts (fan 2)
30 watts (tail/running lights)
1 watt (ECM/TSSM/...)
___________________
= 201 watts (without headlight)

Now, if we add an 85 watt headlight (assuming high and low beams are not on at the same time), we get 201+85=286 watts. Oops, we are exactly at the 286 watt limit if the engine is idling, and the fans are running (without brake light and turn signal). BUT, we are well under the 468 watts if the engine is at or above the 3600rpm point (riding). Now, I'm probably a bit high on the fans, so in reality, it's probably fine even at idle. And, I'm guessing you would be in quite a unique situation if you leave your bike idling for a LONG time (tens of minutes or hours), and the fans are running the whole time (VERY hot day). So, I would assume (based on these calculations) that the generator/regulator can easily handle an 85 watt headlight.

The "real" HID lights consume far less power (half or better) than standard bulbs, so they would improve the power margin even though they produce more light.

My bike has FOUR fans, and TWO 85 watt headlights. So far I have had no problems. But then again, like Kaz, I don't sit around idling much!

http://HogWildRacing.com

Thanks for your detailed response, it is precisely the information I sought, with on exception. I would like to know if the 85 watts makes a significant difference.

 

[V-Man]

I just went ahead and ordered the HID kit from BPP. I guess someone has to be a guinea pig. I'll let you know how it works out. Anyone has any ideas as to how to judge its performance?

 

[Max]

Good V-Man I would like some feedback on the system.

Max

 

[0rest 0har]

My suggestion for an easy non-scientific approach:

Find a dark and deserted country road which is straight, in horse country. Someplace where you will have horse fences along both sides of the road, preferably white painted fences. Stop in the center of your lane shining your EXISTING headlight and count how many sections of fence seem to be lit up with the headlight. Describe what you see, how the light rolls off at the forward most tip of the beam pattern.

After doing such a baseline on the existing light, do the modification and return to the same exact location...

The fence posts will give you a sense of distance, and if they are white, you will get more reflection against which to analyze what you saw from the first headlight.

I would also suggest that you write down what you are seeing while you are still there. Don't forget to measure the distance between the posts (ore take a photo of your bike in front of the fence, we can scale it to determine the fence length).

Hey, every area has a horsey section, perhaps there is one close to your community?

 

[sslegend]

Hey V-man, any results yet??

 

[purevenom]

I like those Mirrors where can I get a set? Nice Bike!

 

[V-Man]

Well, got it on Fri, sending it back tomorrow... :hmm: Unfortunately there seems to be a pattern with BPP's products: grossly overpriced and they're not nearly as plug-and-play as implied.

What I received is a Phillips ballast and a no-name D2S bulb of unknown wattage or color temperature. Ernie was unable to tell me the specs for the bulb.

Here’s the problems I’ve found:

1. No instructions of any kind come with the kit. Had to call them and listen to the explanation over the phone.

2. Although D2S bulbs have the same base diameter as H9 there’s no retaining ring so the bulb won’t stay in. Ernie’s solution? Use epoxy to glue it to the headlight casing.

3. The suggested location for the ballast is on top of the battery. Fine if you’re running topless but you're out of luck otherwise, it’s too big to fit anywhere else.

4. The terminals that are crimped on the power wires won’t fit into the stock bulb connector. Not a big deal, just shows attention to details.

5. For the price ($400) you can easily get 2 of these ballasts and 2 Phillips-brand bulbs and still have some change left.

I will post some pics of the ballast and the bulb tomorrow.

I still think there’s a future to this project, just not with BPP’s parts. I’ve found a place to get a pair of brand new Hella ballasts (all German car manufacturers use Hella ballasts as OEM equipment) plus Phillips 4100K bulbs for $300 + shipping, does anyone want to split it with me?

 

[Zijspan]

I’ve found a place to get a pair of brand new Hella ballasts (all German car manufacturers use Hella ballasts as OEM equipment) plus Phillips 4100K bulbs for $300 + shipping, does anyone want to split it with me?

I'm somewhat interested, though I may want a complete pair. Are you willing to share with us where you found this $300 deal?

 

[gar]

I’ve found a place to get a pair of brand new Hella ballasts (all German car manufacturers use Hella ballasts as OEM equipment) plus Phillips 4100K bulbs for $300 + shipping, does anyone want to split it with me?

I will be happy to split the cost with you !! PM me.
Greg

 

[V-Man]

I'm somewhat interested, though I may want a complete pair. Are you willing to share with us where you found this $300 deal?

On eBay. If you're thinking of replacing both the high and low beam I don't think it's going to work, you really need a reflector to cover the bulb from the front (only low beam has a reflector).

 

[V-Man]

Here's a pic of the ballast and the bulbs (the stock is on the right).