Which one should i use?
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Every one I ask makes the face and on questioning they seem to know less theory than I do about the RT and I am going on 3/4 of the 123 page pdf. This has to be a bad sign.It does not seem like Rocket Science. Actually the RT seems quite user friendly. It WILL be more difficult in practice, I know! The stealer does not have a dyno. I can do it somewhere else but do you think I can make the tune myself with very little experience (cars) and with the help of a non RT oriented dyno tech (they do PC3 all the time).
The face I see in the stealer? This one! Bad sign or what?
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Hey!!! I have seen that very face over here!
:rofl3:
Ok, queston is, does the R/T 'require' a dyno to tune it? Are there pre-made maps (ala PC3) that can be used until I can get on a dyno? Seems to me that for the average joe (me) without a dyno, without good stealer support, that the PC3 (or other such animal) is the way to go. Please, enlighten me if I am wrong. I can't wait to perk up my baby's sound!
:rofl3:
Ok, queston is, does the R/T 'require' a dyno to tune it? Are there pre-made maps (ala PC3) that can be used until I can get on a dyno? Seems to me that for the average joe (me) without a dyno, without good stealer support, that the PC3 (or other such animal) is the way to go. Please, enlighten me if I am wrong. I can't wait to perk up my baby's sound!
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It really depends on how much your configuration deviates from the HD SE parts. The RT comes with maps for both SE pipes as a starting point. Be forewarned that the publicly available PCIIIr maps have met with limited success with many on this forum (others have no problems). EITHER one needs a final dyno tune to make sure everything's OK :2cents
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Thanks MJW930,
I guess more homework is in order. I have a friend that is pretty good with the PC, but I don't know of any one in my area (far west TX) that has the RT. I love the idea of the adjustability the RT has. Never an easy answer when $$$ and HP are involved. (sigh)
I guess more homework is in order. I have a friend that is pretty good with the PC, but I don't know of any one in my area (far west TX) that has the RT. I love the idea of the adjustability the RT has. Never an easy answer when $$$ and HP are involved. (sigh)
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I believe having a dyno is a big timesaving convenience. The reading of my RT manual tells me that you can strap a computer onto the back of the bike and data log some runs (identical to making the various dyno pulls).
The graphs should give you a decent idea of what your fuel/air ratio is doing. Pushing it up or down in the RT is easy. Then another run on the street (sorry, I meant to say closed circuit track) can be logged to verify the results. That is how the tuner was setup to work, the instructions step you thru these procedures. You may need to try it a few time to gain a little experience.
The RT claims to have a limited range of adjustability to protect you from tuning it down (or up) to a truly dangerous level for the engine. If that's any consolation... That doesn't mean that over a long time of running too lean, you wont destroy your engine, because you can. It means that your next immediate run during testing won't endanger your engine
The RT certainly can provide you with the power and versatility to get your EFI dialed in very tightly. All of that should be possible without ever rolling your bike onto a dyno. Share your graphs on this forum and the V-Twin EFI forum and you will get some good advice from the people who have a depth of knowledge and experience tuning with the RT.
But you gotta make yourself comfortable that you can do this first. If you don't like your results, you can always flash back to your current baseline, and go find that far away dyno...
The graphs should give you a decent idea of what your fuel/air ratio is doing. Pushing it up or down in the RT is easy. Then another run on the street (sorry, I meant to say closed circuit track) can be logged to verify the results. That is how the tuner was setup to work, the instructions step you thru these procedures. You may need to try it a few time to gain a little experience.
The RT claims to have a limited range of adjustability to protect you from tuning it down (or up) to a truly dangerous level for the engine. If that's any consolation... That doesn't mean that over a long time of running too lean, you wont destroy your engine, because you can. It means that your next immediate run during testing won't endanger your engine
The RT certainly can provide you with the power and versatility to get your EFI dialed in very tightly. All of that should be possible without ever rolling your bike onto a dyno. Share your graphs on this forum and the V-Twin EFI forum and you will get some good advice from the people who have a depth of knowledge and experience tuning with the RT.
But you gotta make yourself comfortable that you can do this first. If you don't like your results, you can always flash back to your current baseline, and go find that far away dyno...
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Orest,
The biggest drawback of not tuning on a dyno is the lack of any exhaust gas analysis. Strapping a computer onto the bike and logging data runs will tell you what the ECM is doing but it won't give you exhaust gas analysis. The AFR it records is the target number it reads from its tables, not what is actually coming out the pipe.
There is a way to convert the raw data into simulations. These simulations will report calculated HP and 1/4 mile runs. By tweaking setting you can use these as baselines but the process is tedious at best.
The best use of data logging is to record what's happening and what parts of the maps are being accessed during specific types of riding. Lets say, for example, that you're getting a stumble around 3500 rpm at partial throttle. You can strap on the RT and go for a ride to recreate the event. You then review the logged data for the time, RPM or speed that the problem occurred and find out what the areas of the map the system was in and what values seem the be out of line. You might find that the system is detecting knock and retarding the timing. You could then back off the timing in that area of the program, download the update and go for another ride. Race teams would use this to pull real time data on areas where they are having trouble such as 3rd gear shift point, deceleration into turn 4, etc.......
The biggest drawback of not tuning on a dyno is the lack of any exhaust gas analysis. Strapping a computer onto the bike and logging data runs will tell you what the ECM is doing but it won't give you exhaust gas analysis. The AFR it records is the target number it reads from its tables, not what is actually coming out the pipe.
There is a way to convert the raw data into simulations. These simulations will report calculated HP and 1/4 mile runs. By tweaking setting you can use these as baselines but the process is tedious at best.
The best use of data logging is to record what's happening and what parts of the maps are being accessed during specific types of riding. Lets say, for example, that you're getting a stumble around 3500 rpm at partial throttle. You can strap on the RT and go for a ride to recreate the event. You then review the logged data for the time, RPM or speed that the problem occurred and find out what the areas of the map the system was in and what values seem the be out of line. You might find that the system is detecting knock and retarding the timing. You could then back off the timing in that area of the program, download the update and go for another ride. Race teams would use this to pull real time data on areas where they are having trouble such as 3rd gear shift point, deceleration into turn 4, etc.......
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R&R Cycle is were I plan on going here in Manchester, NH.
http://www.rrcycles.biz/
They have a great reputation for dyno tuning, although their rep has been made primarily on the Power Commander product which they sell.
I just got past my 1000 mile break in just in time for the riding weather to get cold. I'm currently running V-Mods, K&N Filter, still got the top on, and '04 RT with the SE map found on the CD. My plan was trailer-in during the winter, when they have more time then they know what to do with, and work with their tuner -- kinda run what I know about the RT with the years of experience that their dyno guy has tuning race and chopper engines.
My wife has MoCo connections and every once in a while I run into the factory area rep during social events. I was thinking of phoning him to ask him which dealers in our area have top-notch RT tuners (stay tuned). Every dealer in my area has renovated or moved to a newly built enormous facility, but I never inquired about their capabilities because my timing for a Dyno was mid winter.
http://www.rrcycles.biz/
They have a great reputation for dyno tuning, although their rep has been made primarily on the Power Commander product which they sell.
I just got past my 1000 mile break in just in time for the riding weather to get cold. I'm currently running V-Mods, K&N Filter, still got the top on, and '04 RT with the SE map found on the CD. My plan was trailer-in during the winter, when they have more time then they know what to do with, and work with their tuner -- kinda run what I know about the RT with the years of experience that their dyno guy has tuning race and chopper engines.
My wife has MoCo connections and every once in a while I run into the factory area rep during social events. I was thinking of phoning him to ask him which dealers in our area have top-notch RT tuners (stay tuned). Every dealer in my area has renovated or moved to a newly built enormous facility, but I never inquired about their capabilities because my timing for a Dyno was mid winter.
I jsut noticed your Rt107 sign on your avatar.
I was on Rt 107 a week ago yesterday! Took it from the intersection of 108 up to RT 28 then up to alton and over to laconia. Great ride! Came up from just north of Boston and never hit a highway!!!!! Tons of bikes out that day.........im sure this week was wayyyyyyyy different (very cold/windy here)
I was on Rt 107 a week ago yesterday! Took it from the intersection of 108 up to RT 28 then up to alton and over to laconia. Great ride! Came up from just north of Boston and never hit a highway!!!!! Tons of bikes out that day.........im sure this week was wayyyyyyyy different (very cold/windy here)
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NH Rt 107
That was a freak day... 72 degrees, bright sunshine. You were on the best stretch of NH 107: between Rt 4 and Rt 28 (where you turned right to go to Alton Bay). That section rolls thru some big hills with sharp curves in every mile.
The next part that you missed continues rolling over big hills. There are many more vista views, the road stretches out much longer without crossing other roads or towns, and the curves are less twisty. We always make a point of either returning from or going to Laconia on 107.
You got a chance to experience first-hand that New Hampshire is the state with the highest per capita motorcycle ownership in the nation. Did you stop in to Merideth HD (just north Weir's Beach, Laconia)? My wife hung out there that afternoon, said that the parking lot looked like a giant bikers festival.
Tomorrows forecast looks more like December. My wife is however optimistic that we will get another day of warm weather to ride in before the winter blows in.
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Keep in-touch (my email appears below), it would be great to connect with a V-Rod or two. I'm typically the only one. There are thousands of miles of well maintained yellow strippers up here and the regular residents of this state are used to sharing the roads with thousands of bikers.
I'll post the results of "known good" HD RT locations as soon as I get a chance to meet up with the rep.
That was a freak day... 72 degrees, bright sunshine. You were on the best stretch of NH 107: between Rt 4 and Rt 28 (where you turned right to go to Alton Bay). That section rolls thru some big hills with sharp curves in every mile.
The next part that you missed continues rolling over big hills. There are many more vista views, the road stretches out much longer without crossing other roads or towns, and the curves are less twisty. We always make a point of either returning from or going to Laconia on 107.
You got a chance to experience first-hand that New Hampshire is the state with the highest per capita motorcycle ownership in the nation. Did you stop in to Merideth HD (just north Weir's Beach, Laconia)? My wife hung out there that afternoon, said that the parking lot looked like a giant bikers festival.
Tomorrows forecast looks more like December. My wife is however optimistic that we will get another day of warm weather to ride in before the winter blows in.
Keep in-touch (my email appears below), it would be great to connect with a V-Rod or two. I'm typically the only one. There are thousands of miles of well maintained yellow strippers up here and the regular residents of this state are used to sharing the roads with thousands of bikers.
I'll post the results of "known good" HD RT locations as soon as I get a chance to meet up with the rep.
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