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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
HI Folks - I am dealing with a high EGT issue with my 2014 Muscle engine installed in my Campagna V13R reverse trike and need to know if the stock ECU can be adjusted to alter F/A ratio and timing or even if I can read what the current settings are. HD service Mgr. was a little vague about this and not really willing to work on the machine.
Just what can be accomplished by hooking up whatever HD hooks up to the ECU? When I run the engine to 3500 RPM the first 6,7 inches of the pipe will glow red while stationary. Both pipes, front and rear.
I get no codes indicating problems. Auto part Muffler Automotive exhaust
When I changed the pipe with a new one Jet Hot ceramic coated for 1200 degrees (I read where header wrap is a bad thing) I discovered that the muffler for that pipe was broken internally and replaced that with a factory take-off that was solid to my knowledge. After viewing the new pipe flaking at the same spot after approx. 700 miles my investigating showed an air filter clogged with oil.
Waiting for a new filter and breather tubes as well. Don't know if that is related to EGTs though. Perhaps restricted air flow caused condition? Also waiting for HD crankshaft turning tool (any alternatives?) to adjust valves which have not been adjusted since new (24000 miles currently on engine).
Engine runs fine. Can't think off anything else. I do have a nagging thought that maybe nothing is out of kilter. Exhaust gases are hot! But I want to see the settings for reassurance.
Best regards from Maine - Mark Lane
:)
 

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Just what can be accomplished by hooking up whatever HD hooks up to the ECU?...
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There are several ways to adjust fuel flow on a VRSC engine:
  1. Pulse width modulators that interpret fuel injector signals and modify the on/off times
  2. ECM (Harley calls the engine management computer an Electronic Control Module) piggy back units like the Dynojet Power Commander
  3. ECM calibration hardware/software like the Harley super tuner, Dynojet PowerVision, or the TTS MasterTune
  4. ECM replacements like the ThunderMax or Daytona Twin Tec devices
The Harley dealer DT (digital technician) is limited as to what it can do in adjusting the VRSC ECM. Only Harley supplied exhaust, cam, and engine displacement modifications are covered.

You need to do some reading in the V-Rod EFI subforums.
 

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All of this can be dealt with in the form of more fuel in the right areas. Bike needed to pass EPA so leaner then desired, which causes high EGT , more fan run times due to hotter running engine overall and so on. It doesn't take much more fuel but more is required. Steve mentioned the options to deal with it. Idle is extremely lean on these bikes and mid range, 3-4k. Dealer actually isn't allowed to creep out of the EPA tune much. Some do, some refuse to get involved.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you for your responses

Education is a wonderful thing - this forum does a good job at that.
Thanks again - likely that I'm going to purchase one of the devices mentioned.
Mark
 

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One thing to consider--

Some of the units (e.g. Power Vision) are standalone-- you hook them up, go ride, and tune as you go more or less automatically. Others (e.g. TTS MasterTune) require a lot of time on the dyno to function properly.

You'll probably want to decide which way you want to jump before you make a purchase.

Just my 0.03.

R.
 

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I’ve got a 2012 Muscle. Had a Toxic exhaust that was wrapped from front to back. This ruined the exhaust and it actually broke in half right about where you are having issues (rear cylinder). I was getting rear cylinder lean codes running this pipe and factory ecm settings. The front pipe was also disintegrating underneath the wrap in about the same place. Wrap is bad for pipes and will void any warranty your pipe may have. I replaced it with an Akropovic exhaust and used a Power Vision tuner. If you buy a Power Vision keep in mind it “marries” that ecm and will not be able to be used on any other bike. I used a tune that was already stored on the Power Vision by Dynajet for an Akrapovic pipe and increased it “globally “ by 5%. This worked great, the bike ran great and no more codes. You have the ability to adjust the A/F ratio throughout all different ranges of use seperately, like at idle, off idle, mid range, wide open throttle, etc., or just increase/decrease over all ranges globally as I chose to do. You then save that “tune” to the Power Vision. You can store several tunes and the device automatically saves your factory tune forever so you can always revert back to that. You can adjust idle speed as well. You can’t make timing adjustments with the Power Vision. You do not have to leave the device on the bike, it plugs into an exhisting pigtail behind the right side cover of my bike. When you find a tune that works, you leave the device off and button your bike back up. No need for a computer and no hard wiring required, You are programming the injectors to give a certain amont of fuel based on how the bike feels and reacts by the “seat of your pants”. This is why a dyno would be handy so you have objective data to see for each change you make. But if you want to, you can add wideband O2 sensors and an additional hard wired module that will monitor A/F ratios in real time and has the ability to hit desired/targeted A/F ratios on the fly. In other words you program it to hit a desired A/F ratio and it does it automatically. You can run it at a leaner A/F ratio at idle and cruising and fatter at wide open throttle. I considered doing this, but my bike runs so good with the tune thats in it I saw no need. As I said it has an Akrapovic Pipe tune that was stored on the Power Vision available out of the box. This tune was crafted by the folks at Dynojet who had access to a dynamometer and could see what adjustments did to a VRod with an Akrapovic pipe installed using a factory air filter. My bike has a K&N so I just guessed at the 5% global increase. I’m not that worried about fuel mileage and was concerned about exhaust temperatures as you are. Anyway it all worked so well and I was so happy with it I threw the Power Vision into a drawer and haven’t seen it in a couple years! By the way, I noticed my pipes turn CHERRY red for the 1st 6-8 inches when the bike is stationary and kept at 4-5,000 rpm for several seconds. The Akrapovic’s are all stainless so I’m sure that helps durability. No performance issues of any kind since I made these changes.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Reassured

Hi Dydameo - Although I am using stock 2014 Muscle mufflers and stock air filter and box and stock ECU it occurred to me that perhaps this issue is not an issue and that the melted head pipe was a consequence of the header wrap (and internal muffler faults) as I read when investigating the stuff as I was about to wrap the new pipe before installing it. Glad I did! That second bend in the rear pipe is the hot spot due to the relatively extreme bend and I had wrapped it with extra strips there in order to negotiate the radius and keep everything covered. That prompted the ceramic coating strategy. Perhaps the 1250F coating is not enough - they do offer higher temp coating.
Am setting valve lash and putting it back together and have obtained a clamp-on EGT probe and handheld reader as well as some brush-on coating that changes appearance at a preset temp. - one at 1200F and one @ 1500F. I'll see what's going one regarding EGTs! As TaxmanHog suggested I might seek out an exhaust shop that has an exhaust A/F ratio meter as well.
Thank you for the info regarding tuners as well as your personal experience with the machine!
Best regards - Mark
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi Folks - Back together and down the road the EGT probe (located 6 in. from port)reports temps of 1000F-1300F going slowly and when held at a steady throttle climbs higher to 1600F+. No codes, runs good.
That seems excessive to me and likely damaging to internals. Press the gas - temps lower - let off and cruise - temps go higher.
Without access to the HD Digital Tuner are any of these aftermarket tuning devices capable of reporting the current state of the ECM as I assume the HD DTII would and will it show any faults not revealed by the IM codes of which I show none?
I know that these devices will alter the parameters needed to fuel the engine properly but am concerned that if there is an underlying fault existing then the tuner will not be getting the correct input before adding corrections.

Mark Lane
 

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Hi Folks - Back together and down the road the EGT probe (located 6 in. from port)reports temps of 1000F-1300F going slowly and when held at a steady throttle climbs higher to 1600F+. No codes, runs good.
That seems excessive to me and likely damaging to internals. Press the gas - temps lower - let off and cruise - temps go higher.
Without access to the HD Digital Tuner are any of these aftermarket tuning devices capable of reporting the current state of the ECM as I assume the HD DTII would and will it show any faults not revealed by the IM codes of which I show none?
I know that these devices will alter the parameters needed to fuel the engine properly but am concerned that if there is an underlying fault existing then the tuner will not be getting the correct input before adding corrections.

Mark Lane
The only underlying fault is the factory calibration for those high egt's. They had to pass EPA so the idle and cruise ranges are very lean . Night and day difference on how smooth these engines run and cool down with a good tune compared to the EPA tune. Key word is good and not all dyno shops are capable of it. It is so dramatic that if I had no way to alter the stock tune, I'd sell the bike. 1400-1600 should only be seen at WOT. 1250-1350* good all around temps and idle in the 9-1000 ranges.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi folks - Update to my high EGT's although somewhat late.
Got PowerVision on machine using supplied DynoJet map for my stock setup, installed EGT gauge on each cylinder and off I go. EGTs seemed high (15-1600F) so I quick tuned with tweeks which helped and I then edited the A/F ratios until the EGTs seemed normal (13-1400F cruising). Runs great. Greatly reduced decel pop. Idles well, decent mileage. Pipes not melted or glowing.
Winter struck so I will continue in the spring with more fine tuning. Pipes still a bit sooty.
This EFI tuning has a learning curve no doubt!
One question - because my machine puts the engine behind the driver inside the body should the front cylinder be fueled the same as the rear as the cylinders are not as exposed as on a bike? I assume that the cylinder air flow characteristics are the same front and rear.
Mark Lane
 

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Hi folks - Update to my high EGT's although somewhat late.
Got PowerVision on machine using supplied DynoJet map for my stock setup, installed EGT gauge on each cylinder and off I go. EGTs seemed high (15-1600F) so I quick tuned with tweeks which helped and I then edited the A/F ratios until the EGTs seemed normal (13-1400F cruising). Runs great. Greatly reduced decel pop. Idles well, decent mileage. Pipes not melted or glowing.
Winter struck so I will continue in the spring with more fine tuning. Pipes still a bit sooty.
This EFI tuning has a learning curve no doubt!
One question - because my machine puts the engine behind the driver inside the body should the front cylinder be fueled the same as the rear as the cylinders are not as exposed as on a bike? I assume that the cylinder air flow characteristics are the same front and rear.
Mark Lane
Hardly ever will a v twin have the same fueling/timing for front and rear. Let the O2 sensors work their magic for fuel while developing the ve tables and check the logs for any knock events that point to the need for reduced timing in those areas. Being liquid cooled there's not a lot of variance in temps between cyls. Maybe 2-4F , with the rear being slightly warmer. This can be from the path of the coolant as in front first, then the rear direction. I'd have to recheck, but you got the idea. Nowhere near the effect as in the case of an air cooled HD where the air is preheated off the front cyl moving over the rear.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks Ron for the reply and info. Basic Question - Where do the VE numbers come from, HD engineers who conduct detailed flow tests on the motor or determined by the ECU computer by ongoing inputs of various data? Too much detail will be welcome!

Best regards from snowy Maine - Mark Lane
 

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I wouldn't put much stock in anything some HD air-head has to say. They turned their back on Buell and Willie G. years ago and couldn't wait to hit the delete button between their eyes. Their field of expertise extends little beyond 1903.

Your answers, your only answers, are here -- amongst the brotherhood -- a wealth of knowledge spanning 16-years. We may not always agree on the best approach, but here, and only here, will you get tangible advice.

Speaking of which, I haven't read though each thread, but I hope you lucked onto the right fix that works for you. Fueler's are an essential add-on in almost every case, of which there are a lot to choose from. Pulse-width are cheap and dirty, but not very precise. Because stock ECM's are "narrow-band", or in other words, only good for low RPM's such as idle, and have no closed loop compensation for changes in altitude, etc. So, the only way to tune your bike properly for all conditions is by installing "wide-band" O2 sensors and a closed loop tuner of which there are many to choose from. It's money well spent, your bike will pull like snot, and you'll be thankful you did it.
 

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Thanks Ron for the reply and info. Basic Question - Where do the VE numbers come from, HD engineers who conduct detailed flow tests on the motor or determined by the ECU computer by ongoing inputs of various data? Too much detail will be welcome!

Best regards from snowy Maine - Mark Lane
Now you are entering the world of tuning and a steep learning curve depending on how far you take it.
Ve is a representation of the amount of air in the cyl or volumetric efficiency. More air (ve) the more fuel is needed generally. This is determined from O2 sensor data based on request in the calibration. It can be either an afr request or clb request depending on whether it's NB or WB sensor. These requests in fuel changes can be manually edited as in your PV calibration and other flash tuners as well. Changes are saved and loaded into the ECM. Once the new cal is loaded and the sensors see the request , basically a new ve table is created from the logs and software. This then over repeated runs will be the new calibration. Gets really long drawn and complicated but this is the basics. While ve is basically the charge of air, we think of it more in fuel terms. If ve has increased in the new logged cal fuel has also increased so we know the basic cal was leaner. CLB for example can be changed to force the senors to center the afr to the new voltage. This in turn creates a different ve in the cal for that new afr request.
Ron
 
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