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Noel
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Discussion Starter #101
Sans dynamic balancer meaning your removing the balancer?
Exactly, several Destroyer racers have made this delete, not sure why HD did not consider removing it. I'm looking forward to seeing how well she performs without it.

Granted there will be a bit more vibration, but only for ~9~ seconds LOL:angeldev:
 

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Exactly, several Destroyer racers have made this delete, not sure why HD did not consider removing it. I'm looking forward to seeing how well she performs without it.

Granted there will be a bit more vibration, but only for ~9~ seconds LOL:angeldev:
Wasn't that one of the failure causes in early Destroyers???
 

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Exactly, several Destroyer racers have made this delete, not sure why HD did not consider removing it. I'm looking forward to seeing how well she performs without it.

Granted there will be a bit more vibration, but only for ~9~ seconds LOL:angeldev:
Looking forward to you experience on this, might consider it for a winter refresh. As of now there is virtually no noticeable vibration with it, so I wouldn't think it would be unbearable without it.
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #104
Wasn't that one of the failure causes in early Destroyers???
I'm not aware of the balancer removal causing catastrophic issues.

What was a problem were the street stock clutch baskets loosening the rivets on the gear plate, when those went you ran the risk of trashing the engine. FIRST mod I made on mine after a soft & slow training season was to install the FINISH LINE basket with only one of the two gears (removed the damper gear).:notworth:
 

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Lubedude
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213 Posts
I'm doing the same thing on my build, just like Noel.... Dyers rods, PAC valvesprings and titanium retainers, Muscle pump, R&D tranny, Lindskog balancing, Scott Fitzgerald crankcase pinning/brace/throttle body blueprinting, counterbalancer removal.

From what I understand, the original purpose of the counterbalancer is really more for the "front to back" vibration harmonics of a typical V Twin, and its effects show up more at crusing speeds, noticably in reduced mirror shake and "buzz" in the handlebars. ((I was amazed at how smooth the Destroyer was compared to both my Roadstar Warrior (which will shake your fillings out) and even my Buell 1125R which has a counterbalancer, but still has an annoying buzz at around 3600 RPM.))

Like Noel said, we don't plan on spending much time below around 9,000 RPM except when taxiing to and from the runway. Plus, Noel and I only plan on running the stratospheric RPM numbers for around nine seconds at a time!

Finally, this mod is recommended by every racer I've talked to on this forum who we know and respect.

The key benefit of removal is not so much the reduced mass, but the reduced mass that is accelerated. From calculations I've seen from my old car racing days, reduction in weight of the recipricating and rotating engine parts can have the same effect as removing anywhere from 5-15 times the equivalent weight off the vehicle, depending on the weight of the component, acceleration rate, and radius. For example, in my old Mustang, converting to a 10 pound lighter aluminum flywheel was the equivalent of removing 97 pounds of weight off the vehicle when accelerating in first gear. On the counterbalancer, this would be figured in a different fashion, where the acceleration inertia of the existing one would be calculated to get an equivalent weight.

I have the formula, but I get a headache when I try to use it. If youre interested, send me a message and I'll get it to you.

Sam
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #106
Dropped off my stuff with the crank shaft balancer yesterday, unfortunately Zint was out on sick leave when I got there, but spoke to his associate, He'll be back on Monday.

I pulled out the balancer last night, a little Yankee ingenuity to get it pulled, the old head bolt is the same pitch/size as the balancers gear retainer bolt, using a 40mm 1/2" drive axle socket I was able to draw it and the right roller bearing out of the case.

Then slipped the balancer from the center of the case.

The left bearing was a bit more challenging, I did not have a collet tool to grab the bear and draw it from the case, so I plucked all the steel pins and plastic alignment cage from the outer race (all accounted for), I am still going to try to get the out race out but it's firmly pressed in the lower case half, I don't think it will fall out, I was worried about the pins getting loose.

Waiting for the balancing work to get completed and a few parts to repair the front heads exhaust valves.
 

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The left bearing was a bit more challenging, I did not have a collet tool to grab the bear and draw it from the case, so I plucked all the steel pins and plastic alignment cage from the outer race (all accounted for), I am still going to try to get the out race out but it's firmly pressed in the lower case half, I don't think it will fall out, I was worried about the pins getting loose.
Do you have a picture of said bearing in case? I would be interested as I may tackle this later. A lot of times if you heat up the aluminum case enough the bearing race will just fall out, especially if you cool the steel race with dry ice or something similar.
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #108
Do you have a picture of said bearing in case? I would be interested as I may tackle this later. A lot of times if you heat up the aluminum case enough the bearing race will just fall out, especially if you cool the steel race with dry ice or something similar.
I've been considering just that, I had great luck with heat & dry-ice removing the the cylinder sleeves, might work as well drawing out the race. :notworth:

I'll get a picture for you later.
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #109

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Thanks for the info, fiche very helpful. It looks like bearing 3 could be pressed out through the case after a threaded retainer is removed, am I missing something? I'm sure you know what your doing.
Thanks Jim
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #111
Yup, number 2 is the spring/c clip retainer which is removed, just need to get the proper tool to draw the race out, feels like a -0.0005 interference fit LOL
 

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327 Posts
Yup, number 2 is the spring/c clip retainer which is removed, just need to get the proper tool to draw the race out, feels like a -0.0005 interference fit LOL
Noel,

You need an aircraft engine valve seat removal tool. It would just fit in the race similar to a tool to drive in bearing races. It has a handle that holds three or four balls against the race. When you squeeze the handle the balls are pressed out. There is a fitting for a water line. Heat the case to 400 degrees, plop the tool into the race, squeeze the handle, the balls press out against the race and water is squirted against the steel race. The race contracts and you pull it out of the case. Almost as good as sliced bread.

Find the local aircraft engine overhaul shop and they could have you going in the time it takes to heat the case.

k
 

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327 Posts
Noel,

You need an aircraft engine valve seat removal tool. It would just fit in the race similar to a tool to drive in bearing races. It has a handle that holds three or four balls against the race. When you squeeze the handle the balls are pressed out. There is a fitting for a water line. Heat the case to 400 degrees, plop the tool into the race, squeeze the handle, the balls press out against the race and water is squirted against the steel race. The race contracts and you pull it out of the case. Almost as good as sliced bread.

Find the local aircraft engine overhaul shop and they could have you going in the time it takes to heat the case.

k
Here is another method...go here:
http://www.expaircraft.com/PDF/Lycoming-OH-Manual.pdf

begin at paragraph, 6-74
and look at the tool in Fig 6-29 Valve Seat Removal Tool.

I can think of no reason why this would not work on your bearing race. Note that Lycoming instructions use 600 degrees.

I am still looking for the tool with the handle, water and steel balls.

k

.
 

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Yup, number 2 is the spring/c clip retainer which is removed, just need to get the proper tool to draw the race out, feels like a -0.0005 interference fit LOL
Not seeing the actual case, is there a lip or something preventing the race from being pressed out in the outboard direction instead of drawing it out to the inboard?
 

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Here is another method...go here:
http://www.expaircraft.com/PDF/Lycoming-OH-Manual.pdf

begin at paragraph, 6-74
and look at the tool in Fig 6-29 Valve Seat Removal Tool.

I can think of no reason why this would not work on your bearing race. Note that Lycoming instructions use 600 degrees.

I am still looking for the tool with the handle, water and steel balls.

k

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Noel,

I called all over trying to find the tool. Burroughs Aircraft Tool made them, the company was bought out and the new company has since dropped the aircraft tool line.

I found three ways to do what you want, find a shop that has the Burroughs tool, the tools are out there, and have them pull the race for you, use the Lycoming sponge method which users say works very well, or use a TIG and spot weld in three or four places an insert of some kind to the race. The heat will transfer to the aluminum and then whack the adapter and the race will fall out.

I would choose the sponge method. Your mileage may vary.

k


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Lubedude
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213 Posts
One other option, send the lower case to Scott Fitzgerald and have him pin the case, and get the crank brace combo you've been wanting for awhile. While he's got the case, he can pull the bearing for you like he did when he pulled my counterbalancer. He has all the specialty tools for these tasks.

Sam
 

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One other option, send the lower case to Scott Fitzgerald and have him pin the case, and get the crank brace combo you've been wanting for awhile. While he's got the case, he can pull the bearing for you like he did when he pulled my counterbalancer. He has all the specialty tools for these tasks.

Sam
Better yet.
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #118
Not seeing the actual case, is there a lip or something preventing the race from being pressed out in the outboard direction instead of drawing it out to the inboard?
The outboard (left) side has interference case structures that don't allow it to be pushed out, has to be drawn into the center of the case.

Thanks for all the research and suggestions, I'm sure we will get it out. But if not I'll install the spring clip to ensure it never comes out!

We're good either way!! :deal:

Good news, got the valves and head service materials in today, we'll give the front head another go over and get them collets and shims done right! :barf:

While waiting on the crank balancing. :broke: actually the price was cheaper than I feared, about $210 for the crank and $50 for the Stator.
 

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You know actually if you think about it, Leaving the outer race in the case may add structural integrety. Maybe that's the way to go as long as the race is retained as you say by the snap ring.
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #120
Comments extracted from Jim726's thread discussing how to properly filter the IAC air supply and in the grander scheme the discussion evolved to filter the entire intake of a race engine without affecting performance,:

Good feedback Griz, you sold me on getting this in place. :notworth:
Especially as I'm still in the middle of my rebuild, well worth protecting the ongoing investment!!
How is the refresh coming? Lots of chatter on the upcoming Rockingham race. Hope you can make it!
Griz, it's been a tough summer, lots issues have slowed my progress in getting this work done. Some uncontrollable issues, budget and timing have gotten in my way.


As far as the engine is concerned, it could all go together now, but the motivation has been very low at the moment, once we get past October to December time frame and know where we're going as a nation, the issues that concern me are at a boiling point and I'm not comfortable investing in this project or my passion for racing, folks who know me will understand my extreme caution :wazzup:

This year you heard the controversy at IRS, none of it is directly related to me but Congress' behaviour of late is having adverse affects on our operations, in the previous year I work my ass of on critical projects, regular duties and along with my dedicated coworkers have done our best to keep the ship of state steaming along.

As we are about to close the fiscal year 2013 on September 30th, the commissioner decided last week he would not pay out our incentive and performance awards program, for a 90,000 strong staff this is a 70 million dollar budget, the funds were diverted to allow the agency to remain open two extra days in lieu of sequestration induced shutdown, to say the least I and many of the folks who earned a place on the awards program are disappointed, yes we're glad we have jobs but knowing we gave extra efforts only to get a slap in the face financially is hard to swallow :broke:

People who do not pull their weight and fit the classic (comical) stereotype of government employee benefitted from my(our) industry & diligence. Next fiscal year is going to be worse double the cuts are expected, and the following year triple.

Also up coming this fall early winter will be a change in my duties & responsibilities at work, starting October 6th I will be shadowing a colleague who will be showing me the ropes on a one of a kind job at the IRS, once I have his duties & responsibilities down he will be retiring on Jan 1st 2014, at which time I will be his permanent replacement if all goes well this fall, this comes with a pay grade increase for me, that will help fund the race program in 2014 and beyond.

I'll either have revitalized motivation or not, as far as I can see, Spring 2014 is when a fresh and ready to go race bike will be done.

I definitely will get anxious by the dead of winter to get $hit done, come hell or high water I will be ready for a full race season in 2014, it may be a local season but at least I'll get on the track.

Sam has generously loaned me his crank shaft retaining tool, I still have it, hope it's not needed at this time, his project is progressing nicely to get back on track this fall!!!

Look forward to an update on this thread by the middle of winter if not sooner :angelwin:
 
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