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valves

Sweet...I think you will like his stuff. I know of no failures on that set up. :deal: Glad you don’t have to split the cases!:dance:
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #64
PAC Beehives, don't know for sure but I think it's a freak failure.

Sent from my droid
 

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drag racer
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6,699 Posts
PAC Beehives, don't know for sure but I think it's a freak failure.

Sent from my droid
i know you know Dano Wert, has he seen this? maybe he can do something and help with $$ but 250+ runs is a bit excessive imo.

is there any recommendations on how many runs on a set of springs?
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #67
81 passes on the PAC springs since they were installed Spring 2012, I want to think the issue is a freak event and that I had one too many 10,300 RPM events during those 81 passes.

Here is a facebook video of the valve, apparently it did suffer a minor tweaking, not an issue since I am replacing all 8 valves and they will be riding in 8 new guides with eight new PAC springs coming from Ray Vreeland, the last set I got from Lou, so I do not think Dano would be able to swing any kind of help on the situation.

Lesson learned, the guides were tried, though my event is the intake, Ray said the the exhaust guides go out quicker in the Destroyers, they are the same materials used in the street heads, he suggested changing them out every 2 to 4 season depending on the number of passes being made.

Lesson Learned, my brain is getting old & slow, I'm adjusting my shift points just low enough to allow me to react and not spend any time in the high risk RPM zone.
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #68
If not coil bind or valve float from excessive RPM could be metal fatigue. I had expereinced similiar breakage when missing a gear at high RPM on a roller cam set up with a radical ramp profile.

Jim
That's probably the root cause for me too! :banghead:
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #69
Heads got cleaned up this weekend in preparation for new valve guides, we're gonna use a heat treating plant over to bring teh heads up to about 350' hoping that along with chilled NEW guides will make it easier to press the old ones out and the new ones in.

Most of the work involved creating custom extraction & insertion drift's (calibrated to sink teh new guides to the correct depth, intake and exhaust sit in the head at different heights.

The Intakes top of guide are 0.750 to 0.0765" above the head casting (with the spring base removed)

The Exhausts top of guide are 0.795 to .0710" above....

Here's the video of the cleanup in process, a lot of fuel deposits with only a short 2012 season
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=10201285937614858
 

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drag racer
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6,699 Posts
noel, i dunno if you've thought about this but the way i set shift points up. is to set them about 400 rpms before where you want to shift. it takes everyone different rpms/time to react to the shift light. kinda like anticipating the tree. our shift rpm is 9700 and i think the light is set for 9300(ain't got my notes in front of me right now) but if you ain't already doing that look into it at some testing.
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #71
noel, i dunno if you've thought about this but the way i set shift points up. is to set them about 400 rpms before where you want to shift. it takes everyone different rpms/time to react to the shift light. kinda like anticipating the tree. our shift rpm is 9700 and i think the light is set for 9300(ain't got my notes in front of me right now) but if you ain't already doing that look into it at some testing.
Yes, been doing that all along, problem is my clunky slow brain.

Destroyers Stock limiter is 10k, because of the crappy stock springs.
The PAC are good for a couple hundred more but the racer should -NOT- be going there on a regular basis.

I'm lowering the limiter to 10,100, and s/p's @ 9700 like you say, that should give me enough for the ADHD days (LOL) :spank:

Thanks for the reinforcement,
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter #72
Out with the old valve guides and in with the new, job done this evening with help from my buddy Bill and his wife Jamie graciously allowed us to warm the heads in her kitchen oven, they are preparing to move to a new home so they weren't worried about the oil smoke we generated warming up the heads to 350 degrees.

The old guides came out nicely with some custom tooling Bill created.

Then we drifted in the new guides using more custom created guide drifts, with alignment pilot shaft, pre calibrated depth such that they landed at just the right depth for the exhaust at about 0.710" and them with a washer for a shim, we set the intakes to about 0.770"

We're on hold waiting for MSC to get me a 6mm machine ream to confirm the guides are cut back to the correct stem/guide tolerance.

Also waiting for two more 42mm intake valves, they are on backorder, I have all the other valves ready to go in.
 

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Lubedude
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213 Posts
Way to keep up the momentum, Noel.

Sam
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #74
All Parts in as of Friday afternoon, we completed the guide ream & hone, lapped the valves, all fell right into the zone on the seats, Cleaned and ready for reassembly.

Saturday we put it together, completed a bench shimming of the valves, only three were a little off compared to the old valves, I had a variety of shims all are lashed correctly.

Sunday, I will begin to engine prep & reassemble tonight & Monday, it's very possible I can be racing next week if the weather holds up, might go to test & tune on Friday night, then TOPBIKE on Saturday.

Thank you Ray Vreeland for getting me a fresh set of CHE guides and Nitrated Beehive Springs.

Precision Harley Davidson for getting all the Valves and assembly materials.

My buddy Bill of Roth Racing for his ace head & Machining work, with the right tools (even if custom created he can do anything)
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #76

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Premium Member
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327 Posts
Cams

Noel,

You posted in the other thread,

"The cam's were not as bad as the photo's make them out to be, Bill thinks this was a crude machining process on the cam grinds, it was uniform on all the cams on the leading & trailing ramps as well as the heal, only the nose of the cam was mirror smooth with no unusual wear,..."

and in post #19 in this thread you post pictures of the cams before and after polish.

I am sure that you have read and there are pictures in the HD Service manual that cams are ground either camground or micro-stoned, your pictures are of micro-stoned. Did you remove any material and/or change the profile by polishing the micro-stoned to the finish of camground ?

And the pitting on the cam journals ?? If you polished that out (not likely) wouldn't you have changed the fixed clearance of the cam in it's bore ?

Just sayin' ....... this is puzzling me. Old school would say that you could possibly set up the situation to break a cam due to the pitting.

k



.
 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #78
Those photos are from my initial refresh project last year winter 2011/2012.

When we pulled the heads to repair the broken valve spring a couple weeks ago the cam's looked fine.

The surface of the cam lobes were smooth before and after the 2011/2012 polishing process, there was no tactile feel to what the camera picked up optically from the flash.

The Pitting you see in this photo is on a portion of the cam that is NOT the bearing (where you see the oil passage hole) or cam-lobe section. We did not remove the non critical pitting, nor did we polish the bearing surfaces (only the cam lobes).

 

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #79

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Noel
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4,579 Posts
Discussion Starter #80
As reported in the Racing thread for 2013, we were off to a moderately good start as I resumed the race program, but $hit happens if you know what I mean!!!!

Back at the shop, unloaded the bike & gear, Marie took me out to a post race day dinner, just the two of us, broke the bad news to her, exactly what the problem is I don't know yet but it's not sounding good, I intent to tear everything down for a FULL REFRESH, I should have done this at the onset of the head work project but felt confident we had the no issues in the bottom end to worry about. Lesson learned, it's probably worth checking after an incident (guides & springs) especially since I hadn't done a winter refresh with the limited (In my opinion) number of runs in 2012, hindsight says it was a bad choice, live and learn.

So we got back from dinner, and I'm anxious to tear into see what is up. the rest of my buddies are enjoying the beautiful weather and wrap up to Laconia Bike Week with a day trip the Weir's on Sunday, I am too bummed to be any good company so, passing on the trip.

I Spent the rest of the evening, preparing for engine pull number three, first order of business was OIL DROP, the oil is brand new and already has a sheen of golden silk hue to it, this is very fine particulate from the bearings, under normal wear and tear (street riding you might see it in your oil at the change intervals, and maybe a fleck or two of steel particulate from the rings and tranny gears.

There was a number of flecks of bearing materials, I suspect to find more above the pan gasket!, I dumped the majority of the oil to the waste bucket now with 10 quarts of new junk oil.

Pulled the intake, exhaust, drained the radiator, reserve bottle and block.

Got a closer look at the valve action as I hand turned the motor, the intakes are moving just fine, as I see them opening I can see the exhaust nearing the complete closing cycle, all ok on the rear head, but the front right exhaust valve is not pulling all the way to the seat? Could it be a weak spring, (unlikely) could it have seized up in the guide? possibly though we reamed and honed the guides to spec's.

It's possible a ROD bearing went out on me and there was enough lash to allow the piston to contact the valves, possibly the LEFT Exhaust escaped damages because it was moving more freely in it's guide?

This is one of those which is the root cause questions, (Chicken & Egg) if you know what I mean.

As of now, I am writing these reports, and psyching myself up to get the engine out of the frame, on the engine stand and commence with the FULL TEAR DOWN!
 
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