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I was thinking"I know it's Dangerous" :helpme: !Harley wins AMA Pro Star and NHRA Pro Stock!Now what about the grass roots guy who wants to compete in Shoot Out Series?Is there any Support Like the Other Factory's give?I know with my Motor Program"Big Bore,etc".It has been Very Tuff to find Anyone who Knows "JACK" about this thing! :tmbsdow: Jamie Mac has been helpful with the Forum,but we need more!Well also need to support the Harley Racers at every Level from are Bracket Race Champ Kevin"kspz3" to are Pro Star Champ Jamie Mac!To my Wild adventure in How Fast,and how much POWER can a REAL V-rod MAKE? :twisted: When I got my Race Tuner Last Year it was some Magic Thing!Now we Have are Members Making and Testing/Data Logging their owner special Program to their certain setups!No help from the Factory at all! :wazzup: We tend to know more about Our Bikes then the DEALERSHIP that Sell and Service them!WTF? :eek: Harley Davidson is an American Company that has Always been Big on Racing!The V-rod was derived from their racing program and has Brought HD to the 21st century!Fuel Injection,Water Cooled,Bad Boy that is Night and Day Better Motor then anything they had built before.This Forum showed are commitment by organizing their first ride at Daytona This Year!The VRF and it's Members are the Future of Harley Davidson and it would be Nice to Have a little more of their Support! :kaz:
 

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Super Kaz said:
I was thinking"I know it's Dangerous" :helpme: !Harley wins AMA Pro Star and NHRA Pro Stock!Now what about the grass roots guy who wants to compete in Shoot Out Series?Is there any Support Like the Other Factory's give?I know with my Motor Program"Big Bore,etc".It has been Very Tuff to find Anyone who Knows "JACK" about this thing! :tmbsdow: Jamie Mac has been helpful with the Forum,but we need more!Well also need to support the Harley Racers at every Level from are Bracket Race Champ Kevin"kspz3" to are Pro Star Champ Jamie Mac!To my Wild adventure in How Fast,and how much POWER can a REAL V-rod MAKE? :twisted: When I got my Race Tuner Last Year it was some Magic Thing!Now we Have are Members Making and Testing/Data Logging their owner special Program to their certain setups!No help from the Factory at all! :wazzup: We tend to know more about Our Bikes then the DEALERSHIP that Sell and Service them!WTF? :eek: Harley Davidson is an American Company that has Always been Big on Racing!The V-rod was derived from their racing program and has Brought HD to the 21st century!Fuel Injection,Water Cooled,Bad Boy that is Night and Day Better Motor then anything they had built before.This Forum showed are commitment by organizing their first ride at Daytona This Year!The VRF and it's Members are the Future of Harley Davidson and it would be Nice to Have a little more of their Support! :kaz:
:stupid: :stupid: :plause: :goof:
 

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Kaz,

MoCo has distanced themselves from much of the racing scene, and has established a different pace than in previous history.

If you read waaayyyy back, HD Race Teams dominated the race circuits, and between them and Indian it was a major war. With the entry of Honda in the 60's to the race circuit, and then other companies from Japan riding their crest of the wave of inline 4 development, HD Race Teams have seemed to fall by the way side.

Of course the XR-750 program staid the course for some time, as their specialty was the dirt track scene. Of late, and as of the mid to late 70's HD support for that program really felt the squeeze of capitol investment due to AMF's involvement and squandering of $ that should have been invested in new technology.

HD butt was literally saved when the personalities within moCo stepped up to the plate to save the company. Since that time, their only major entry into racing was the protype bike that ended up on the streets as we see it today, the v-Rod. Hell, MoCo has even distanced themselves from their bread and butter original racer, the Sportster, and have left Eric Buell up to developing more out of the motor in recent history.

What you and a handful of others are doing is probablly seen by MoCo as pushing the envelope on already a great motor and ride. They have done their job, and their interest in going further is no doubt seen as a cautious optimism of development within the aftermarket circles. Much like what had occured with Joe and Marge Smith of S & S fame. In their eraly years, they developed carbs, and as their following developed in depth, the money from profit became available to further what development came in the air-cooled V-Twins. Today, what you see is that many manufacturers that 30 - 40 years ago might have worked from their garages to make a widgit for their Harley, have cashed in on their struggles to make the Harley Motor a fire breather compared to what comes from MoCo assemebly lines.

Believe me, if MoCo did not think there was money there, there would be no Screaming Eagle, or 95 CID parts for the EVo and twin cam models. Think about how long from S & S's timme of offering their first side bowled carbs to today, where MoCo is now attempting to compete with the aftermarket developers and parts companies.

The bottom line is why should they invest more? let the aftermarket guys figure it out, then incorporate what has come from their development into more parts to be offered as options or bolt on at the parts counter from MoCo dealers.

Your feeling what these early pioneers felt when they attempted their land speed records, and quarter mile assaults, they had to do it all themselves to get there.

The Vance & Hines bike has little of what really appears to be a V-Rod, other than the fact that their quarter mile asphalt burner rides on 2 wheels. yes, the V-twin motor has the same configuaration, uses some design principles, but that is about it.

So, knowing that you are sort of a pioneer, dosn't that give you a nice warm fuzzy?
 

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Why should they support racing? To keep winning bikes on the track. Kaz is busting out of the envelope on his own and theres no telling how many V-RODs he will sell next year by dropping jaws every where he goes. The thing is that would be a lot more places if he had a little help. :2cents:
 

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I agree Kaz. H-D could learn alot from the Jap factory programs for the smaller series riders. This type of sponsership would go a long way to get H-D some much needed positive P.R.
 

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I agree that the factory should be involved in further development of racing in some form, but, realizing whta position they are taking might help in ways to approach asking.

Hey, even back in th elate 50's and the 60's, racing sold bikes too, with or without factory support. Just seeing someone win a race, specially a back yard mechanic, made others realize that if that guy could do it, so can I.

HD did not float a lot of racing teams then, but those they did have out there had the support from the thrid floor, and if you look at some recent articles about this operation, they were shoestring within the factory even. By that I mean they were like stepchildren trying to get a lot done on a minimum amount of $ involvement.

Jerry Branch would be one to talk to about all of this, to see what approach might be taken to ask for involvement, as he worked many years with MoCo on the factory racing projects.

not to belabor the point, but I agree 100% that there should be some support from the factory and dealer network too. cracking that boundry to get their help and why they should provide to someone that is out of the MoCo family, that means working for them, would be a hurdle to overcome.

like any other goal, you have to define what you want to do, timeline it, be specific about the steps and ask. So if you could, what would you ask for?

Money? R & D? Engineer support? How would it benefit MoCo if they did? Selling a few more bikes is one, but how would they sell that much more?

Just riding my V-Rod down the street turns many heads, and talking to people actually sells the V-Rod. I know one instance that in 5 minutes I talked another SPortster owner into purchasing a V-Rod, just by what my experience had been with mine.
 

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Rich Moran said:
The Vance & Hines bike has little of what really appears to be a V-Rod, other than the fact that their quarter mile asphalt burner rides on 2 wheels. yes, the V-twin motor has the same configuaration, uses some design principles, but that is about it.
Most people don't realize that! That bike is only related to a V-rod by name, two wheels and a V-twin engine (not V-Rod engine).
 

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The real support that I see at the tracks seems to be from local dealers, Kaz this might be the way to go. I realize that some know less than alot of the racers we have here but there are some that understand where the MC is going with this bike. It will tack time for the rest but they will come around or be left behind. Keep searching Kaz the help you need is out there, win races and they will find you. Good luck.
 

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It seems that the Factory's support of racing has historically been spotty, at best, an downright schizophrenic in recent years. Unlike sportbikes, sales of Harleys do not seem to tie into any particular racing platform, therefore, how much would getting into grassroots-level support really benefit them?
 

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KBOlsen said:
It seems that the Factory's support of racing has historically been spotty, at best, an downright schizophrenic in recent years. Unlike sportbikes, sales of Harleys do not seem to tie into any particular racing platform, therefore, how much would getting into grassroots-level support really benefit them?
This is true, or was until the V-ROD.
 

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Rich Moran said:
So, knowing that you are sort of a pioneer, doesn't that give you a nice warm fuzzy?
This is true. And if there is a market that MoCo is not satisfying (race enthusiasts?), that's an open door for you, Kaz, to fill in your own way. There's no reason the logo on the bike has to be HD. If you're attracting a lot of attention with your racing, then maybe Pepsi or your local dealer would pay a few bucks for THEIR name in that spot? Also, keep in mind there are THOUSANDS of us doing cool things with Harleys, and we all want some help :broke: . There's even some crazy guy with a dirt bike V-Rod! MoCo can't help everyone, so who do they help? I'll keep trying for additional racing support, but for now I just SMILE every time I twist the throttle! :ride:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
OKIE said:
This is true, or was until the V-ROD.
Thats My Point!The V-rod is all about Power and Performance!The Track should be a Natural.Screaming Eagle Needs more V-rod Specific performance Mods!Big Bore Kit,Cams,Fuel Injection Upgrades Ect,Ect!Screaming Eagle Spend Millions on The Pro Stock bike that has Only Name that the same as the Real Thing!We have Proven" If they Make it we will Buy"!Look how many Race Tuners are Forum has bought in the last Month!I bet it 95% of the Race Tuners sold in the Last Month were from are forum Members! :thumb:
 

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Super Kaz said:
Thats My Point!The V-rod is all about Power and Performance!The Track should be a Natural.Screaming Eagle Needs more V-rod Specific performance Mods!Big Bore Kit,Cams,Fuel Injection Upgrades Ect,Ect!Screaming Eagle Spend Millions on The Pro Stock bike that has Only Name that the same as the Real Thing!We have Proven" If they Make it we will Buy"!Look how many Race Tuners are Forum has bought in the last Month!I bet it 95% of the Race Tuners sold in the Last Month were from are forum Members! :thumb:
Kaz, maybe a bunch were sold, but the profit from the sales are not enough to fill the wind in race sails. Its taken years and years of the air-cooled v-twin to support the production of whatever screaming eagle components are out there. The pipes, air cleaner and little black box they sell were natural additions to the line up of options that HD could afford to leave on their shelves as an inventory investment.

They know that a certain amount of riders will buy into these parts, but not enough to cause them to jump in with 2 feet on a program that is still so new to the consumer.

I think the time will come, when the larger bore kits show bigger acceptance, aftermarket cams show more installations at the dealer level, and other trick race mods come in, that MoCo will focus a little more on adding components to their inventory for our purchase.

they are running this as a business, and profit is what a business is all about.

I am certain that many meetings in Milwaukee have occured regarding these same points we've hashed out here, the answer to all the questions is central to everything, and that is "at what point can we (MoCo) show a profit for the investment we would have to make for these extras"?

Look at the stock wheels on the V-Rod as an example. Hell, they know that there is something there that they could fill a void with. Do they do it? Sure, they offer OEM chrome wheels, nothing fancy, same wheel, just plain ol chrome. How many sets have they sold? Air cleaners on the other hand, well, they will sell those all day long, because they are a consumable. SE pipes? Well, what is the difference? An insert, so the shells of the mufflers, they have a ton of OEM stock, all they do is select the insert desired. How much is invested? On the sale of the SE, they have actually sold the owner 2 sets. One when the bike was new, the second set after the original sale occured.

Its taken MoCo how many years to finally realize that synthetic oils might be a good plus for them. A few years back, if you ran synthetics, and you had a motor problem, chances were the warranty was void. Today, they sell synthetic oil.

Sorry for belaboring the point, but, a good plan for lining up sponsorship, and the reasons why specifically with your dealer is no doubt the best that you might hope for. Ask them for oil, filters and rubber, and advise them what you'd give in return for their investment. Once that flies, then the next step is what else can be arranged?

People like Steve Stortz, here is a guy trying to sell inverted front ends for the v-Rod. he might be one to aqid in suspension

If you show them at the dealer level that you can get it all to work, and win races too, the factory guys when in your market might be approachable, if just for a meeting to get names and asking how to walk the path.

Another avenue might be to look up some of the older guys who did have sponsorship from MoCo, and get advice from them. The last thing as a pioneer that anyone would want is getting scratched by those branches that appear in your face when you least expect it. These old timers can offer sage advice to hold those branches back. Gaining their trust to get them on your team is needed too.

Its all hard work and planning, but if you can pull it off, that would be great.
 

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Its an old saw in the vehicle business - "Win on Sunday - Sell on Monday" - and it sure has worked for companies like Ducati and Honda. And I guess about eighty years ago it worked for Harley-Davidson too.

The problem (as far as H-D is concerned) is that nothing the MoCo sells is even remotely like a "racing bike." I have to laugh when I see Screamin' Eagle pipes for Road Kings and Fat Boy's sold with the tag "For Race Use Only" on them. Who are they kidding? It is true that Harley has had some success in the drag racing world with the V&H bike - but as others have commented, the link between this bike and the V-Rod is slender, at best.

Harley sunk many millions into supporting the VR1000 race program, and it met with extremely limited success. On the bright side, we did eventually get the V-Rod out of it. But unless H-D comes up with a bike that can win FIM F1 races, and has something similar in the showrooms, I doubt that there will be much in the way of factory sponsorships out there. You could argue that the fact that there is no credible Buell presence in the racing world is one reason they struggle to compete with other sportbikes, even in their home market. But the thought of an Erik Buell-tuned Sporty engine going up against the latest and greatest V5 from Honda is just laughable.

I think Rich probably has the best idea - there are a lot of companies interested in making aftermarket performance parts for the V-Rod. If you could get enough of them together to show off their products, and kick in a few dollars - you might have the beginnings of your own team.
 

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Rich Moran said:
Kaz, maybe a bunch were sold, but the profit from the sales are not enough to fill the wind in race sails..
What matters is that HD realizes that people are using their HP parts.This will make them think :hmm: "people actually buying our HP parts maybe we should research more into HP parts"
So what if the NHRA v-rod doesn't resemble a v-rod.It's the fact that someone will be curious as to what a real one looks like,if they haven't yet.That will get the person into a dealer to look at one. ;) I bet that HD is going to see a rise in v-rod sales withen a couple months because of the success that the v-rod on the race track.

Kaz,it's awesome what you have done and accomplished to the v-rod.But,it sucks being the pioneer.But look on the brite side you have Sam T.who has hooked you(and other forum members including me) up so far,with his knowledge and products.Also you have turbodan who put the 1st turbo v-rod(1st one I know of)on the road.He is a pioneer like you,and together u 2 will do amazing things in the future with the v-rod.
And you got me,remember what I do for a living? ;) I can help out with somethings,within my and employers capabilities.
:cheers:
 

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vrodvinny said:
What matters is that HD realizes that people are using their HP parts.This will make them think :hmm: "people actually buying our HP parts maybe we should research more into HP parts"
So what if the NHRA v-rod doesn't resemble a v-rod.It's the fact that someone will be curious as to what a real one looks like,if they haven't yet.That will get the person into a dealer to look at one. ;) I bet that HD is going to see a rise in v-rod sales withen a couple months because of the success that the v-rod on the race track.

Kaz,it's awesome what you have done and accomplished to the v-rod.But,it sucks being the pioneer.But look on the brite side you have Sam T.who has hooked you(and other forum members including me) up so far,with his knowledge and products.Also you have turbodan who put the 1st turbo v-rod(1st one I know of)on the road.He is a pioneer like you,and together u 2 will do amazing things in the future with the v-rod.
And you got me,remember what I do for a living? ;) I can help out with somethings,within my and employers capabilities.
:cheers:
Vinny, That is exactly what it will take to get their attention. Wins, and a following of new want-to-be owners of the V-Rod. Looking at it all though, and for as much as we all here love the bike, some folks look at the side that my $ will go for as much HP as I get get out the door from a dealer. Serious competiton with the inline 4's is there for the asking for less than a new or used V-rod. That competition will make it harder to get the numbers up in new unit sales, and thus, it is a cause and effect scenario.

I want as badly as the next V-Rod owner access to developed and proven race components. SOmething I can walk in and buy, and get it on the bike is what i think is reasonable. I do not see that today at the dealerships or aftermarket. Awhile back, I started a $ to HP ratio, and for the V-Rod owner, they have to spend serious $ to coax HP from the machine. The evos or air cooled bikes seem to have the benefit if you were, of being de-tuned, where the flip side on the V-Rod is, they've sold a bike that pulls HP from a well thought out design.

The 69 CID motor is tiny compared to the 88 and 95" motors MoCo puts in their lead sleds. Putting it into perspective that way makes one realize just what we got when we bought one of these. I think I am not saying anything new here in that.

Anyway, in the next 5 to 8 years, i think really exciting things will happen as more of these units are sold, and the demand for more power becomes a force that moCo will have to handle.

So it starts with people like Kaz and you, who have the want and desire. :cheers:
 

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Kaz - I agree 100% - Wiilie G and the screaming Eagle team just has not stepped up to the plate on this one - and it keeps me in total dismay. I just wrote a long reponse and lost it when I hit the enter key - I will have to respond tomorrow when I have some additional time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
kspz3 said:
Kaz - I agree 100% - Wiilie G and the screaming Eagle team just has not stepped up to the plate on this one - and it keeps me in total dismay. I just wrote a long reponse and lost it when I hit the enter key - I will have to respond tomorrow when I have some additional time.
Dam I hate when that happens! :banghead:
I think we should hear your side and Our Off Road Racing Buddy"Zijspan" that missed out on his Dakar Rally Dream this Year because of NO SUPPORT at any Level!How about Jamie Mac?Is he able to talk about his Factory Backed Program? :hmm: It's not Just the Money but the Technology the Factory has at their disposal has to be Huge!Please Harley Davidson if your Listening.Get More involved in all the Different forms of V-rod Racing and lets show the other brand of the World just How Great American Motorcycles can be! :kaz:
 

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Hey Kaz,
While H-D has a long standing history in racing, recent efforts have been less than successful. As such, Racing is probably low on the list of priorities for their marketing department.

WHICH MEANS: That if you are in a position to market yourself to H-D, then you may be able to garner their support. Racing--even on the factory level--is still very much a grassroots effort. Large corporations allocate just a few dedicated employees who are willing to travel to key events.

So what sort of support are you looking for? Direct sponsorship or are you trying to put together events?

I assume that you have a generous supply of images and data. You'd be surprized how far you can get with the right marketing proposal and the right contacts. (Yes, I'm in marketing)
/Steevo
 
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