V rod Cranks
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Which cranks rbabos ? Ron -hey I'm glad you started this - I'm interested in the Marine Cranks, Inc. 1/4 " Stroker Crank I think that crank, stock length rods, CP 4.134 12-1 pin up pistons may be the way to go for a bullet proof 1350cc street engine. Hope we find something out. I want the best that can be had.
Asking about the stock cranks. I know with nitrided journals, it's next to impossible to wear them out. I've never read of anyone throwing a mike on them and mentioning wear or out of round on the rod journals on these cranks, which, this area normally would wear the most. Lack of any of this makes me wondered if they were nitrided and wear proof or nobody has enough miles on them to produce this measurable amount of wear, or they just look at the color code and replace without measuring.
I've read about the Marine cranks and can't say either way if they are treated either.
Having flown with the old VW engines and rebuild/converted them to aircraft apps, I've never seen a bad crank in them, even run with no oil filters. That's what got me thinking. Nitride also stiffens the crank that would greatly reduce main bearing walking in the case, likely more then the typical girdle which to me has no real means to accomplish the task it was designed for. I'm sure others have questioned this as well. My opinion, obviously but in reality crank flex is the contributor to movement in the main bearing bores.
Ron
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Cranky thoughts.
I would think Porsche would definitely have nitrided the cranks, there was a guy that had access to OEM Revo technical info here a while back he would probably know, hope he reads this - chimes in.
The Marine Crankshafts, Inc. V Rod stroker cranks are reportedly "triple heat treated, Ion Plasma Nitrided for superior journal hardness and wear resistance." Sounds real good. If my crank checks out bad I'm buying their 1/4 stroker, wish there was some M/C's reports here.
Crank flex is a contributor to main bearing movement but a case set that's not robust enough to resist it is also a major contributor. I've got my 1250 cases and 2 Lb. ! Trask girdle w/ARP studs on the bench now, when you look at the way it ties together the 4 low end bosses of the main bearing area there is no way that it can't help. Just damping the case vibration and helping to prevent case spreading and the ARP studs will keep case main bearing area clamping pressure at the maximum, it will help greatly. I see some say pinning the bearings is a must, some say it's unnecessary. I have heard using too thick of a layer of case sealant and/or not getting the cases assembled before it sets up a film that prevents full clamping pressure and contact on the main bearing area can allow the bearings to be loose and rotate. Makes sense -I saw there is a very good sealant application diagram in the manual - it's not put everywhere only where needed, and I think it's a only 4mm diameter bead. On lower Hp engines assembled properly pinning is probably not a necessity, high hp I would probably do it it's cheap insurance. :blahblah:
I would think Porsche would definitely have nitrided the cranks, there was a guy that had access to OEM Revo technical info here a while back he would probably know, hope he reads this - chimes in.
The Marine Crankshafts, Inc. V Rod stroker cranks are reportedly "triple heat treated, Ion Plasma Nitrided for superior journal hardness and wear resistance." Sounds real good. If my crank checks out bad I'm buying their 1/4 stroker, wish there was some M/C's reports here.
Crank flex is a contributor to main bearing movement but a case set that's not robust enough to resist it is also a major contributor. I've got my 1250 cases and 2 Lb. ! Trask girdle w/ARP studs on the bench now, when you look at the way it ties together the 4 low end bosses of the main bearing area there is no way that it can't help. Just damping the case vibration and helping to prevent case spreading and the ARP studs will keep case main bearing area clamping pressure at the maximum, it will help greatly. I see some say pinning the bearings is a must, some say it's unnecessary. I have heard using too thick of a layer of case sealant and/or not getting the cases assembled before it sets up a film that prevents full clamping pressure and contact on the main bearing area can allow the bearings to be loose and rotate. Makes sense -I saw there is a very good sealant application diagram in the manual - it's not put everywhere only where needed, and I think it's a only 4mm diameter bead. On lower Hp engines assembled properly pinning is probably not a necessity, high hp I would probably do it it's cheap insurance. :blahblah:
Well, pinning can't hurt but suspect if bore shifting is controlled and crush retained , might classed as insurance the a must do. Most likely I'd do it however if the condition is fairly common. I'd have to look closer at the girdle thing but I get the impression it's just a big flat washer. Possibly because it unitizes all four studs and clamps all for faces where the original bolt would contact, this is where it helps. Ok, sounds logical the more I think about it. Should minimize fretting then.I would think Porsche would definitely have nitrided the cranks, there was a guy that had access to OEM Revo technical info here a while back he would probably know, hope he reads this - chimes in.
The Marine Crankshafts, Inc. V Rod stroker cranks are reportedly "triple heat treated, Ion Plasma Nitrided for superior journal hardness and wear resistance." Sounds real good. If my crank checks out bad I'm buying their 1/4 stroker, wish there was some M/C's reports here.
Crank flex is a contributor to main bearing movement but a case set that's not robust enough to resist it is also a major contributor. I've got my 1250 cases and 2 Lb. ! Trask girdle w/ARP studs on the bench now, when you look at the way it ties together the 4 low end bosses of the main bearing area there is no way that it can't help. Just damping the case vibration and helping to prevent case spreading and the ARP studs will keep case main bearing area clamping pressure at the maximum, it will help greatly. I see some say pinning the bearings is a must, some say it's unnecessary. I have heard using too thick of a layer of case sealant and/or not getting the cases assembled before it sets up a film that prevents full clamping pressure and contact on the main bearing area can allow the bearings to be loose and rotate. Makes sense -I saw there is a very good sealant application diagram in the manual - it's not put everywhere only where needed, and I think it's a only 4mm diameter bead. On lower Hp engines assembled properly pinning is probably not a necessity, high hp I would probably do it it's cheap insurance. :blahblah:
Sounds like the Marine crank is well treated. Basically next to impossible to wear out if that's what's done to it. VW and Porsche air cooled both treated the cranks. VW didn't even use an oil filter. Any documentation on the v rod crank would be good to confirm but my gut feeling is not likely. I'm hoping it is.
Correctly done, case sealant if used on the perimeter will have no real effect on main bores. Too far away. With the squeeze out there's virtually no material on the joint, maybe .0005-.001 worst case. The area between the sealed sections and the 4 main studs will flex to a full metal to metal condition. While I like loctite 518 for many case apps, in this engine I'd stay with the OEM sealant applied as directed for amount, as it will not hydro like some sealants will, that would cause a thicker then desired bond area at the joint. As you know 518 will start setting as soon as the two surfaces make contact so you would have to be real quick on the torquing. Quick is best regardless of sealant used but the sillastic types are more forgiving for slower moving people.
Ron
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If the VW and air cooled Porsche cranks are nitrided I can't imagine them not doing the Revo cranks - I too hope and would bet it is. My understanding is some guys got in trouble putting sealant all around the case parting flange (even in places that don't need to be sealed ) this caused the slight case separation around the main bearings that got loose. I would think sealer that takes 24 hours to set and squish out would be ideal - no need for quick set at all. I bought the H-D sealant but it's basically non corrosive RTV - I'm not sure what the set time is I'll check it out.
Possible but cheap as HD is they might have skirted the nitride process to save a buck. Sealants, well, some get carried away with sealant not understanding the need to avoid certain areas with it or the need to control squeeze out to minimum. I've seen several other engines where it's ended up in relief valves and plugged small oil orfices when it broke loose , getting into the oil system. The HD sealant should be fine, used as directed. No way it can start to cure within a normal time frame for torquing up the halves. This allows squeeze out to the point where all that's left is product in the micro imperfections of the mating surfaces, with metal to metal contact elsewhere, so bridging is next to non existent. No effect on main bore area clamping loads.
Ron
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Porsche designed the Revolution engine and Harley-Davidson manufactured it. Comp Cams advised H-D against using the production camshaft cores for high performance camshafts due to the resulting small base circle and the problems associated with that but H-D went right a head and used the standard cores for performance camshafts. Therefore, I wouldn't assume that H-D did anything because they were advised to do it or that it was the right thing to do. As for the case sealer, Yamabond
Yes, and it doesn't have to be at the journal. The whole crank is done with the nitride process.
Ron
Different strokes. I tried it once and couldn't give the tube away fast enough. While it does work, it skins fast and if humid out it will attract moisture degrading the purpose. There are several grades of Yamabond but in the end I chose Loctite 518 for most apps like the big twin, two stroke aircraft engines and such. It's also killer for metal to metal sealing in coolant apps. For the Revo, as much as I dislike RTV types, for these engines, likely the most user friendly time wise. Yama and 518 require rapid torque up for different reasons. One skins over pre assembly, the other starts to set as case faces meet, within 5 minutes. Take too long with either sealant will hydro between the metal faces. The application speed and assembly time of Yamabond really pissed me off. I'm getting older and hate rushing now.
You can tell it's winter when we stoop to arguing about case sealants, right?
Ron
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The product i would use is called "Hylomar". We use it extensively at work on some fairly high tollerance gearboxes. It is similar to rubber cement. It never "dries" per se. When the box is taken back apart, it is still a gooey (read difficult to clean, they have a special remover) also, it only fills voids. If it is a true surface, it all squeezes out. The Germans made us use it to rebuild their greaboxes. After using it for quite afew years now, i am impressed. It creates no extra "gap", that can kill a fit. It also does seal stuff either out, or in, depending on point of view. I know in the beginning, we had to order from Germany, but i think (not 100% sure) that now there are vendors stateside. By the way...... the stuff, once opened, does have a shelf life. It carries my personal recommendation........ for whatever THAT is worth.....
Well, you made me investigate, AGAIN. I was aware of it being used on EVO base gaskets and such but never really looked at it otherwise. Thought it was old school shit at the time. Seems available everywhere and should work great on case halves. Here's the scoop. Sounds like the ticket for a layed back , no rush, no fear of bridging on the perimeter that could cause main bearing trans bearing clamping possible issues. Interesting stuff for sure.
http://hylomar.com/hylomar-product-range/
Seems the blue or M is the ticket.
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It is a very good product. I have used it for years. Point of interest it was actually created by Rolls Royce.
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I Love good sealant and I cannot Lie.
OK so yea, this is a great discussion ! - I've used Hylomar myself for years in the 90's working on a Rolls Royce Nene 10 Centrifugal compressor jet engine from the 1950's - in of all planes a Canadair CT-133 Mk3 /T33 " Shooting Star " trainer, stuff worked great on the fuel nozzles, compressor turning elbow seals, etc. Got a tube in my toolbox at home now. Doesn't wash out with fuel or oil or dry out as stated. Only gripe I have with it is just that - it remains moist, tacky which means it is also somewhat of a lubricant i.e. it does not "bond" the metal case halves together for additional vibration and movement resistance like an RTV or especially other anerobic or 2 part sealers do. The cases on these Revo engines ideally need to be almost glued together for additional strength. We have PRC sealants for aircraft sheet metal, fuselage, fuel tank assembly and they can be ordered in 1/2 to 24 hour (and more if needed ) cure times so I'm thinking of going that route. Plenty of time to assemble, squeeze out, and then it cures to a full bond. They also make lower adhesion variants which is easier to disassemble when the time comes. I agree with RonVRod on the cams and as H-D also went cheap once on the Revo pistons using some made in Brazil P/N 22934-08K's for a while with some problems, now obsolete and back to the old P/N 22928-05KA's which I believe are German Mahle 1250 pistons, forged. I don't think H-D ever went cheap on the cranks though, looks like same P/N 23725-01K all through the 15 year run, whether nitrided or not certainly strong and reliable, definitely proven. "You can tell it's winter when we stoop to arguing about case sealants, right ? Ron" Yup, well not really winter down here but my R's off the road to pull the engine so it might as well be - so this sealant discussion is right on time ! :notworth: :blahblah:
OK so yea, this is a great discussion ! - I've used Hylomar myself for years in the 90's working on a Rolls Royce Nene 10 Centrifugal compressor jet engine from the 1950's - in of all planes a Canadair CT-133 Mk3 /T33 " Shooting Star " trainer, stuff worked great on the fuel nozzles, compressor turning elbow seals, etc. Got a tube in my toolbox at home now. Doesn't wash out with fuel or oil or dry out as stated. Only gripe I have with it is just that - it remains moist, tacky which means it is also somewhat of a lubricant i.e. it does not "bond" the metal case halves together for additional vibration and movement resistance like an RTV or especially other anerobic or 2 part sealers do. The cases on these Revo engines ideally need to be almost glued together for additional strength. We have PRC sealants for aircraft sheet metal, fuselage, fuel tank assembly and they can be ordered in 1/2 to 24 hour (and more if needed ) cure times so I'm thinking of going that route. Plenty of time to assemble, squeeze out, and then it cures to a full bond. They also make lower adhesion variants which is easier to disassemble when the time comes. I agree with RonVRod on the cams and as H-D also went cheap once on the Revo pistons using some made in Brazil P/N 22934-08K's for a while with some problems, now obsolete and back to the old P/N 22928-05KA's which I believe are German Mahle 1250 pistons, forged. I don't think H-D ever went cheap on the cranks though, looks like same P/N 23725-01K all through the 15 year run, whether nitrided or not certainly strong and reliable, definitely proven. "You can tell it's winter when we stoop to arguing about case sealants, right ? Ron" Yup, well not really winter down here but my R's off the road to pull the engine so it might as well be - so this sealant discussion is right on time ! :notworth: :blahblah:
The aspect of forever oooy gooy on Hylomar is likely why I've avoided it myself. Not sure if the bonding aspect really does much given the crush from the bolts but the argument regarding lube vs stiction of other sealants is interesting. Noting better then Loctite 518 for that but like I say it can bridge the gap if not clamped fast enough. For me and the need to control positive metal to metal for bearing bore size retention, as much as I dislike RTV types, it seems the safest bet for most of us.OK so yea, this is a great discussion ! - I've used Hylomar myself for years in the 90's working on a Rolls Royce Nene 10 Centrifugal compressor jet engine from the 1950's - in of all planes a Canadair CT-133 Mk3 /T33 " Shooting Star " trainer, stuff worked great on the fuel nozzles, compressor turning elbow seals, etc. Got a tube in my toolbox at home now. Doesn't wash out with fuel or oil or dry out as stated. Only gripe I have with it is just that - it remains moist, tacky which means it is also somewhat of a lubricant i.e. it does not "bond" the metal case halves together for additional vibration and movement resistance like an RTV or especially other anerobic or 2 part sealers do. The cases on these Revo engines ideally need to be almost glued together for additional strength. We have PRC sealants for aircraft sheet metal, fuselage, fuel tank assembly and they can be ordered in 1/2 to 24 hour (and more if needed ) cure times so I'm thinking of going that route. Plenty of time to assemble, squeeze out, and then it cures to a full bond. They also make lower adhesion variants which is easier to disassemble when the time comes. I agree with RonVRod on the cams and as H-D also went cheap once on the Revo pistons using some made in Brazil P/N 22934-08K's for a while with some problems, now obsolete and back to the old P/N 22928-05KA's which I believe are German Mahle 1250 pistons, forged. I don't think H-D ever went cheap on the cranks though, looks like same P/N 23725-01K all through the 15 year run, whether nitrided or not certainly strong and reliable, definitely proven. "You can tell it's winter when we stoop to arguing about case sealants, right ? Ron" Yup, well not really winter down here but my R's off the road to pull the engine so it might as well be - so this sealant discussion is right on time ! :notworth: :blahblah:
Speaking of PRC. The last aircraft I built had wet wing tank, all sealed with two part prc or pro seal as it was called. Stinks like hell, bonds like crazy and obviously fuel resistant. Not that I have a leaky stator grommet but if I did, that shit would be the cat's ass for a sure fire leak proof seal. It could still be disassembled but will require more effort then plain old rtv crap.
So, I take it no info on crank nitride on the Revolution?
Ron
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I got no Revo nitride info yet, but my bikes now off the road so with any luck I'll have my crank in hand ( no pun intended ) soon and can tell you if it's nitrided. The PRC also comes in A instead of B thickness A2 to A12 vs B2 to B12 the A is thin, almost pourable, B thicker, more body than RTV so the A would be better for cases to touch each other with no hydro and the 2 to 12 is the work time in hours before it sets. Either would probably work, go with the A with quicker set hours so it doesn't run or the B and go longer set time for full squeeze out. I'm going to look up the Loctite 518 as well.
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While all have an opinion, and reasons behind them, i think most products, used properly, will provide sufficient results. My reason for liking hylomar so much is that exact reason, the "ooey gooey-ness" that it retains over time. My reasoning is that i have used it for years on the gboxes at work and they are subject to a very harsh environment, and no evidence of leaks. Also, my belief is that a setting type would be more subject to leakage, because it cannot flex with the cases. Now, i may be all wet (pun intended) but ill stick to my hylomar.
I also have no complaints on the 518, but i have not tried that in place of the hylo, but would expect fair to good fesults. I have used that 518 in other apps, with real good resukts.
My 2 1/2 cents
John
I also have no complaints on the 518, but i have not tried that in place of the hylo, but would expect fair to good fesults. I have used that 518 in other apps, with real good resukts.
My 2 1/2 cents
John
Like I mentioned 518 is a great sealant but being anaerobic it starts to set as soon as the cases meet up. Take too long in the bolt up, there is a risk of bridging the joint. Not something desirable in a case where bearing bores must be clamped metal to metal. This includes trans bearing areas as well for clamping. The way I look at it is , if you know the risk is possible, avoid it. Go with a non anaerobic sealant in this case, as much as I like the 518 for just about everything else.
Ron
Ron
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If that's the case I agree, Locktite 518 is OUT. The speed of engine assembly should not be dictated by the case sealant. No one needs Revo case sealant to kick that fast because no one will get the engine fully assembled, timed, primed, and back in the bike fast enough to take advantage of a sealants fast setting times so it should not be used as a speed factor. The sealer I see on my 1250 cases is NOT non corrosive RTV like what H-D sold me after a month + of waiting, it is much closer to the flexible but super strong PRC sealants I have spoke of. The case halves should be carefully checked by hand for dings, imperfections, filed or oil stoned off for proper contact, and the proper sealant will take care of the rest.
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