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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Turbo AFR Data

I wanted to know what was going on with the tuning of my Vrod. The bike has SE cams in it with a Trask Turbo installed. The map provided by Trask is for a stock engine. There is an 1130 and a 1250 version available. My bike is somewhere in between.

I have changed out the exhaust pipes and replaced them with ones with bungs welded in them before the turbo. Exhaust pipes came from Trask and the bungs are in the same locations they used in developing the maps. I have installed the Twin Scan II + system which includes the WEGO II. After installing the twin scan one of the bosch aft sensors was defective and would not calibrate. I replaced both sensors with new so they would have equal run time. The new sensors calibrated just fine.

The unit only captures 12 minutes of data when the WEGO is attached with a .20 sampling rate. I put a travel bag on the bike and connected my laptop to the system to capture data in real time mode which didn’t work. I believe the issue is probably not the system but is the computer itself. I’m guessing it is a program called Boost Kit which frees up memory and is probably clearing out the buffer on the computer.

I reverted to downloading the 12 minute internal buffer files. I’m still learning the programs and will work on combining the four log files I have attached. Based on the initial data it looks to be running rich on the bottom and lean on the top. But that would be for a normal aspirating engine. I have no idea what is best for a turbo.

There is not a lot of information available regarding turbo tuning. I’m hoping to provide actual data to be examined and developed. I would appreciate it if we could keep this thread on topic. This site is all about sharing information to benefit the members. But too often technical threads become convoluted with unrelated disinformation destroying their intent.
 

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Inked up Irishman
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Don't know can't open them for some reason....
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
KWIKR said:
Don't know can't open them for some reason....
The files are data log files. To monitor the progress of the afr mapping you will need to have the Daytona Twin Scan II software loaded on your computer.
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/download/Twin_Scan2/Twin_Scan2.htm

Download the log files listed and save them to the Twin Scan directory. Open up the Twin Scan Program. Go to file, open and navigate to the stored files. Open the first file. Te file will open in a separate window called Twin Scan II Chart Display. Close that window. Then click on View, New AFR Table. This opens up the first file. It ony shows one data point.

On the top left click on File, then Open additional files. Navigate to the second file and open it, do the same thing for the third and forth. This compiles the data and fills in the cells. I will have to capture a lot of data to fill in the cells. It is a work in progress at this point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
It looks like compiling the data is going to be a bear. The software allows you to open up multiple data runs but the data cannot be manipulated or saved. When the first file is opened you can switch between the screen functions. After an additional file is opened these commands are grayed out and will not function.
There is no save function, you cannot copy the data and paste it in an excel sheet. It looks like the only option is to send it to print or a screen capture.

I also noticed that you can open up the same file repeatedly. The program adds in the values and calculates a new value for the cell. Have to be careful and load the files in order ensuring duplicate data is not applied skewing the numbers.

There is an export function allowing the data to be converted to an excel sheet. However to be useful a sheet would have to be developed that in itself calculated the required values. How are others dealing with this issue?
 

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The Hawk
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I tried to open it with my old twinscan 88+ log program and it would not open, even though the file extension is the same .log. Oh well.

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Elgavilan said:
I tried to open it with my old twinscan 88+ log program and it would not open, even though the file extension is the same .log. Oh well.

Mike
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/downl...Twin_Scan2.htm

Here is the link to the software. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. I know you have tuned a turbo before. I want to capture a lot of data and see where it is at. I have a start but a long way to go to fill in the majority of the cells.
 

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Red-Rod said:
http://www.daytona-sensors.com/downl...Twin_Scan2.htm

Here is the link to the software. Your advice would be greatly appreciated. I know you have tuned a turbo before. I want to capture a lot of data and see where it is at. I have a start but a long way to go to fill in the majority of the cells.
The Twin Scan files are just CSV files and can be opened with Excel by changing the extension to "csv".

I tried to attach an excel workbook with your four files and a plot of RPM, front AFR, and rear AFR for each run but the forum has a 488.3KB file size limit and this combined file was 1.2 MB. Each run spreadsheet with a plot is 703.5 KB. Each spreadsheet without the plot is 318 KB. The plots are each 581 KB in excel form.

Due to the attachment size limit I had to attach four separate spreadsheets without plots and a pdf file showing the plots.

edit: I used the zip file attachment limit to upload the combined workbook with plots included.

I haven't had time to analyze your data but these files might help others look at your data that don't have the Twin Scan application.
 

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Red-Rod said:
... Based on the initial data it looks to be running rich on the bottom and lean on the top. ...
From what I see in your data, front and rear AFR are tracking fairly close to each other.

Also, I'm not sure what you mean by top and bottom but you're running lean at low RPMs (1200 to 3000) and rich at high RPMs (4000 to 5000) compared to the target AFR.

You don't have much data at 5000 RPM and very little above this (a few brief excursions above 6000 RPM).
 

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The Hawk
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Looking at the data posted above, it looks like you got the idle AFR pretty much lined out at about 13.5 which is where it should be. You can slowly ramp up the AFR toward 14.3 from about 2250 rpm to 3000, then hold it at 14.3 in the cells below 10% throttle up to about 5000 rpm and slowly ramp back down from there to red line, end up at 12.5 AFR at 60% throttle and up. From 3500 rpm and up with 10% to 20% throttle you will be getting into boost so you want the AFR to be ramping down as the boost goes up, to the low 12's. Then hold the low 12's or high 11's in everything above that.

At least that was what worked on my RCC turbo setup.

Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Steve, all I can say is wow. Thank you very much for all the work you did with the files. The data is a lot easier to understand and follow. It looks like you have excel mastered for sure. I was hoping to have a lot more data logged by now but problems at work have screwed up my vacation time.

The data is easy to see and comprehend in the excel format. Thanks again what a world of difference it makes!
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks for the info Steve and Mike. The bike is running fine and the plugs look. I want to log a lot more info before messing with the map. The limited runs were basically to see if the system was working.

On the excel sheet run two. You can see two 100% throttle runs. The first is entering an on ramp in first, lines 745-759. I cranked it until it hit the rev limiter. I wanted to see what the afr would do. Line 752 shows 8848 rpm. Note the front afr goes to 20.

Thanks again Steve this is a great data format! I see the light!

Then in line 1000-1010 you can see where I did it again. At line 1007 it hit the limiter at 8909 and the afr went to 20. The rpm limiter is set at 9,000.

I have attached the race tuner map for reference.
 

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The Hawk
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You sure don't want to be running an AFR of 20 at any throttle setting, but especially at 100% throttle. That will destroy things very quickly. Get it down into the high 11 or low 12 range and it will be good to go.

Also, take a look at your knock sensor on the log, I'll bet it was pulling a bunch of timing out when you were at the 20 AFR readings.

Mike
 

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Elgavilan said:
You sure don't want to be running an AFR of 20 at any throttle setting, but especially at 100% throttle. That will destroy things very quickly. Get it down into the high 11 or low 12 range and it will be good to go.

Also, take a look at your knock sensor on the log, I'll bet it was pulling a bunch of timing out when you were at the 20 AFR readings. ...
The lean condition at 9000 RPM could be the result of how the rev limit shuts down the system. I don't see this high AFR value at any other high TPS condition.

The TwinScan II doesn't log front and rear knock data when you have it set to read the AFR sensors.

I was going to call them to ask why this wasn't included but wanted to spend more time with the unit (I just upgraded my TwinScan to TwinScan II and installed it this week).

It's possible that the memory needed for the "floating point" AFR values made adding the other data impossible. I'd trade the time data for front and rear knock info (the time data is redundant if you know the time interval).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Steve has it. The afr going to 20 is what happens when I hit the rev limiter. The afr is 10.4-10.7 at what appears to be full boost. Too little data to see true trends yet.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I believe I have found a glitch in the Twin Scan Software. Check out the attached PDF file showing the screen captures. The first paste is the results of opening up nine log files for the front cylinder. I then exited the files and loaded up the rear cylinder from the files. They were identical so I didn’t believe it. I closed out of the program and re-opened it and loaded the rear afr again. The data was different. Apparently you have to close out of the program completely or it will not clear its buffer.

I have included the new log files. Tried to import into the excel sheet Steve made but I havent figured out how.
 

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Thanks for the warning, I'll have to keep that in mind. I didn't like the way that feature worked anyway and was going to use excel instead. I've found a number of problems and deficiencies with their software. E.g.:

1) It's a pain that only one type of table at a time can be "averaged" by opening additional files.

2) It's strange that when displaying the AFR tables and the edit format option is set for SERT VRSC-Advanced the tables are displayed with RPM values of 7500, 8500, and 9500. These are only used for the newer VRSC ECM used after 2005 and for these bikes the ECM also uses 11000 RPM values and these are not listed by the Twin Scan II software. The only way to display the RPM rows used for the older 2002-2004 VRSC ECM is to select SERT VRSC-Basic.

3) The software doesn't allow you to copy the AFR values or VE corrections. The instructions tell you to print these out and edit the SERT maps one value at a time. Fortunately I found you can use Acrobat and print to a pdf file and use the Acrobat "select table" feature to cut and paste the printed tables into excel.

4) When the Twin Scan II is set to read WEGO data it doesn't log the front and rear knock data. I was told by [email protected]: "Sorry, the system doesn't suppport that capability."

I'm sure we'll be learning more of their software "features". I wouldn't worry about importing the files into the excel file I posted. That was just in case someone didn't have the Twin Scan software and was familiar with excel. If you're not familiar with excel it's probably not worth the bother to learn it.
 

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SNAFU
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Just so some expectations are set, Daytona Twin Tec is basically one person, Chris. He has a business partner and some assembly and stock room staff but he is the only one that produces the software and firmware. Of course there are gaps in the features but you should also remember that the software is free, what you pay for is the hardware.

I'm not trying to defend them, just pointing out why their stuff has some quirks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Mark, it is a great tool they have provided us. I realize this is an invention and it is not going to be perfect. I'm thankful Chris took the time to make this product for us. It's no diffrent that the problems that were noted with the VROD the first year.

As I said up front"There is not a lot of information available regarding turbo tuning. I’m hoping to provide actual data to be examined and developed. I would appreciate it if we could keep this thread on topic. This site is all about sharing information to benefit the members. But too often technical threads become convoluted with unrelated disinformation destroying their intent."

Thank you for your efforts in bringing this product to the market Chris. I just want to explore it and find out the best way to utilize the data provided. Mark, I respect your openion. You have helped me many times in the past. Your input would be greatly appreciated. I'm not looking to belittle the product but problems have to be identified so solutions can be formulated.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Steve, I think that excel is the way to go. You are on the right path their. I tried to import the files on separate sheets but the column formatting was wrong. I will need to read those strange things called instructions.

I was wondering id an IF statement could be used in the formula to export the data to a tally sheet. Something like If column A equals 1000 then? I think the issue I’m having with the software is I cannot see what is going on. With a spread sheet you can review the data and check it for accuracy.
 

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Mark,
Okay, I now understand the situation. I do appreciate that Chris doesn't charge "extra" for the software and makes it available to anyone. Of course, it only works with his product and I did pay for this, so I should have some leverage.

I should add that the Twin Scan devices (TS88 and TSII) are the most robust data loggers I have used so far (I've also tried both Dynojet and PLX Wide Band monitors/loggers and they are both much more cumbersome and/or worthless for use on the V-Rod). The extraction of data from the ECM data link makes the TS hook-up very simple and the available data quite impressive.
 
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