Harley Davidson V-Rod Forum banner

1 - 20 of 21 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hey Guys, Been working little by little on the bike's tune and doing little mods here and there. Title has the mods, but i'll list here for you guys to have. This tune i'm attaching started off being a Fuel Moto Tune that wasn't the greatest (on my particular bike) and logs showed a lot of deviation from requested AFRs to actual, decel pop, hesitation when cracking the throttle... Etc.

I've posted tunes before here and got great feedback, and along with logs, and alot of riding, i've arrived at this one. Bike idles great, has no exhaust pop, the exhaust headers aren't bluing due to heat, no bucking at slow speeds... You name it, it does it well. Target tune is keeping AFRs almost identical to requested. Front end gets crazy light when you go WOT. It is very fast. This is on my particular Bike, cant promise yours would be the same. Ill be getting to the Dyno soon. Butt dyno definitely feels gains. Fuel economy isn't a priority, but its seems just as good as stock.

Notes on this tune:
-This has Target Tune enabled. Not sure if it can just be loaded on a standard non Target Tune bike.
-Adaptive has been turned off
-VSS set for 26T sprocket
-No knock in any of my logs, but I use only Shell 93 Octane
-Decel Enleanment and Acceleration enrichment have been lowered to keep the tune and AFRs as tight as possible.
-VEs has only a few cells maxed at 127.5.
-Redline Raised to 9500
-South Florida, sea level, temps at night average mid 190s, during the day may go to 217 and turn fans on just for a moment, but not often at all.

Mods:
PowerVision with Target Tune Wideband
K&N Air filter
Topless Airbox
Vance And Hines Comp 2-1 Exhaust
Fitzgerald 26T front Sprocket
Energy Suspensions Poly Cush Drive
New Michelin Scorcher 2 tires front and back
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #2
WHOOPS the tune didn't attach... How do I attach a PVT, file? or a ZIp?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,114 Posts
WHOOPS the tune didn't attach... How do I attach a PVT, file? or a ZIp?
You have to email it as far as I can tell. Good cal on disabling the adaptive. Learned that years ago. It is not v rod friendly and the tune is very unstable with it enabled. First thing I recommend before tuning with PV and a v rod. Reduction of the AE and DE another good call. Setting minimum KPA to the Idle kpa also aids in eliminating bad low end data from engine over runs as in light load operation. Sounds like you did your homework. As for loading a TT enabled into a bike with NB sensors, not really. It's set up to use AFR rather then CLB tables in the non enabled. Sure you can copy and paste ve tables but in the end, it would be easier to just start fresh with a NB tune. There might be some gains to keeping the ve tables from 50kpa and up from the WB data and merge the two with NB and WB but each bike is different and while it might be close, it won't be optimum on the next bike.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
You have to email it as far as I can tell. Good cal on disabling the adaptive. Learned that years ago. It is not v rod friendly and the tune is very unstable with it enabled. First thing I recommend before tuning with PV and a v rod. Reduction of the AE and DE another good call. Setting minimum KPA to the Idle kpa also aids in eliminating bad low end data from engine over runs as in light load operation. Sounds like you did your homework. As for loading a TT enabled into a bike with NB sensors, not really. It's set up to use AFR rather then CLB tables in the non enabled. Sure you can copy and paste ve tables but in the end, it would be easier to just start fresh with a NB tune. There might be some gains to keeping the ve tables from 50kpa and up from the WB data and merge the two with NB and WB but each bike is different and while it might be close, it won't be optimum on the next bike.
Ron
Thanks for the info Ron. Yes every bike is different so for any one that wants the tune just let me know and ill email it, but keep in mind... a bit of a light Auto-tune, or individual logging might be good. Like Ron said, no 2 motors are the same.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,114 Posts
Thanks for the info Ron. Yes every bike is different so for any one that wants the tune just let me know and ill email it, but keep in mind... a bit of a light Auto-tune, or individual logging might be good. Like Ron said, no 2 motors are the same.
Point is, your TT for someone to try cal with them also using TT, will be leaps and bounds ahead of the base cal they sent you. As you've found out they are not even close.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
I just bought target tune from Fuel Moto as well - but haven't installed it yet. I have similar mods, but not the same - I'll post mine below, but do you think I'd do well to start with this tune? I don't have the 26t sprocket so I'd need to adjust back for that...

2009 VRSCF
PowerVision and soon to add in the Target tune
K&N Filter - not topless
Akrapovic 2-1

Thanks!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I just bought target tune from Fuel Moto as well - but haven't installed it yet. I have similar mods, but not the same - I'll post mine below, but do you think I'd do well to start with this tune? I don't have the 26t sprocket so I'd need to adjust back for that...

2009 VRSCF
PowerVision and soon to add in the Target tune
K&N Filter - not topless
Akrapovic 2-1

Thanks!
I got it from Fuel moto also and the cal they sent was identical to their non TT base cal. Im sure internally the code allows for the ECM to read the WB sensors, but as far as AFR, VE, Spark... all identical to the first PV tune they sent, Which itself was not too different from a factory stock cal. They are great to buy from... but their V-rod tuning left a lot on the table.

As far as using my tune to get a head start, I think it will be fine. Your airflow will obviously be different due to the airbox being closed, and the Akra pipe. But if you auto tune it will adjust VEs to your setup. Everything else should be fine. For the Sprocket, just change the VSS to 1341 ( for a 28T).

For Auto Tune, I suggest you make several runs, each run filling a different area of the chart. So for example:

-Run 1, You focus on riding areas from 1%-30% throttle. Use different gears and braking while throttle to help fill those hard to reach cells. Try not to allow engine braking when coming to stops.. Pull the clutch and go to idle as soon as you know you will be stopping. Do not record overun decel yet.

-Run 2, Focus on 30%-60%. this will obviously start getting you into much higher speeds. Be careful, and use gearing to get to those hard to reach cells. Dont record overrun yet either. Use the brakes to hold the engine in certain cells if needed but beware the brake temperatures, and safety aspects of it. Kind of to simulate a dyno load.

-Run 3, Focus on the last 40% of the cells. You'll be riding very fast at that point so I cant offer advice on how to fill those. You cant do it in 1st gear because it wont record if the cells are moving too fast, and doing it in 3-5 gear takes you past triple digits. Use your best judgement. Again no over run recording. Closing the throttle sharply from 9000 rpm causes the Auto Tune to just dump a ton of fuel into the 10.3 KPA area of the map. Your whole decel VE will be basically 127.5 max. You do not want this.

-You may have to repeat steps 1-3 multiple times to get the best results. Ideally you want each run, to have just 1-2% deviation in the VE cells. One run in each area may not enough. 3 Runs in each should be good, so 3 map areas x 3 runs each = about 9 Runs total. After every run, you have to save the results to the Powervision, reload into Autotune, and do the run again. I would also put them into Win PV and name them each. So you can go back one by one and see the differences recorded. May be overkill, but I have every single revision and tune I recorded.

-When you are happy with the results under acceleration you work on Decel. Do a few runs not in Autotune, just normal. But record LOGs. You need to log Decel from all Rpms. Bring those Logs into Dynojet software too see the Actual AFR vs Requested AFR for each area of decel you recorded. If you need help setting up graphs In Dynojet Power Core to show this, let me know. You then manually adjust VEs and spark to bring the decel VEs inline with your requested AFRs. This takes some tinkering and repeat runs. Auto Tune will not give you reliable decel results. Manual input is required.

Sorry for making this so long but I wanted to be thorough. If I had some one explain it to me it would have saved me a lot of time, errors, and fuel. Just passing along what I have Learned. You cannot replicate these real world runs and decels on a Dyno without spending a fortune. I hope I explained it well enough and will gladly clarify anything you need.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,114 Posts
I got it from Fuel moto also and the cal they sent was identical to their non TT base cal. Im sure internally the code allows for the ECM to read the WB sensors, but as far as AFR, VE, Spark... all identical to the first PV tune they sent, Which itself was not too different from a factory stock cal. They are great to buy from... but their V-rod tuning left a lot on the table.

As far as using my tune to get a head start, I think it will be fine. Your airflow will obviously be different due to the airbox being closed, and the Akra pipe. But if you auto tune it will adjust VEs to your setup. Everything else should be fine. For the Sprocket, just change the VSS to 1341 ( for a 28T).

For Auto Tune, I suggest you make several runs, each run filling a different area of the chart. So for example:

-Run 1, You focus on riding areas from 1%-30% throttle. Use different gears and braking while throttle to help fill those hard to reach cells. Try not to allow engine braking when coming to stops.. Pull the clutch and go to idle as soon as you know you will be stopping. Do not record overun decel yet.

-Run 2, Focus on 30%-60%. this will obviously start getting you into much higher speeds. Be careful, and use gearing to get to those hard to reach cells. Dont record overrun yet either. Use the brakes to hold the engine in certain cells if needed but beware the brake temperatures, and safety aspects of it. Kind of to simulate a dyno load.

-Run 3, Focus on the last 40% of the cells. You'll be riding very fast at that point so I cant offer advice on how to fill those. You cant do it in 1st gear because it wont record if the cells are moving too fast, and doing it in 3-5 gear takes you past triple digits. Use your best judgement. Again no over run recording. Closing the throttle sharply from 9000 rpm causes the Auto Tune to just dump a ton of fuel into the 10.3 KPA area of the map. Your whole decel VE will be basically 127.5 max. You do not want this.

-You may have to repeat steps 1-3 multiple times to get the best results. Ideally you want each run, to have just 1-2% deviation in the VE cells. One run in each area may not enough. 3 Runs in each should be good, so 3 map areas x 3 runs each = about 9 Runs total. After every run, you have to save the results to the Powervision, reload into Autotune, and do the run again. I would also put them into Win PV and name them each. So you can go back one by one and see the differences recorded. May be overkill, but I have every single revision and tune I recorded.

-When you are happy with the results under acceleration you work on Decel. Do a few runs not in Autotune, just normal. But record LOGs. You need to log Decel from all Rpms. Bring those Logs into Dynojet software too see the Actual AFR vs Requested AFR for each area of decel you recorded. If you need help setting up graphs In Dynojet Power Core to show this, let me know. You then manually adjust VEs and spark to bring the decel VEs inline with your requested AFRs. This takes some tinkering and repeat runs. Auto Tune will not give you reliable decel results. Manual input is required.

Sorry for making this so long but I wanted to be thorough. If I had some one explain it to me it would have saved me a lot of time, errors, and fuel. Just passing along what I have Learned. You cannot replicate these real world runs and decels on a Dyno without spending a fortune. I hope I explained it well enough and will gladly clarify anything you need.
Did we talk before? Sounds like a carbon copy of what I tell people when trying to tune.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
Did we talk before? Sounds like a carbon copy of what I tell people when trying to tune.
Ron
We've exchanged messages but no so in depth haha.

We all go down this road sooner or later to get to the correct method.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Sorry for making this so long but I wanted to be thorough. If I had some one explain it to me it would have saved me a lot of time, errors, and fuel. Just passing along what I have Learned. You cannot replicate these real world runs and decels on a Dyno without spending a fortune. I hope I explained it well enough and will gladly clarify anything you need.
Thank you so much! I had to work my way through logging and adjusting a tune on a car I had years ago so I know how much time and frustration you’ve saved me... seriously, I really appreciate the help!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
I just bought target tune from Fuel Moto as well - but haven't installed it yet. I have similar mods, but not the same - I'll post mine below, but do you think I'd do well to start with this tune? I don't have the 26t sprocket so I'd need to adjust back for that...

2009 VRSCF
PowerVision and soon to add in the Target tune
K&N Filter - not topless
Akrapovic 2-1

Thanks!
Too funny. I also just bought a TT for the PV this week from Fuel Moto and have the identical mods.

@Daze513 do you care to email me the tune as well? My email is [email protected] . What is the 513 in your screen name? I ask because I am located in Cincinnati, Ohio where we have the 513 area code.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Too funny. I also just bought a TT for the PV this week from Fuel Moto and have the identical mods.

@Daze513 do you care to email me the tune as well? My email is [email protected] . What is the 513 in your screen name? I ask because I am located in Cincinnati, Ohio where we have the 513 area code.
Sure thing will email it in the next 20 min. Let me know what you think.

Honestly the 513 means nothing to me. It was suggested as part of the username years ago in the AOL days.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
Sure thing will email it in the next 20 min. Let me know what you think.

Honestly the 513 means nothing to me. It was suggested as part of the username years ago in the AOL days.
Got it, thank you! I'm hoping my Target Tune from Fuel Moto arrives any day. Once it arrives I hope to get it installed in the next couple of days so I'll be able to upload tune then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
@Daze513 got the tune uploaded last night after I got the TT installed and so far the bike does run lol. I want to get all the wiring cleaned up and I need to get the PV mounted to the handlebars then I'll be ready to start logging. It may have just been coincidence, but the bike started up very quickly (quicker than normal). Hardly any cranking before it fired up. Thanks again for the tune!

I do have one question. You mention you raised the rev limiter on this tune to 9500 rpm. When I look at the VE and AFR tables it only goes to 9k rpm? Is the software just only able to go to 9k rpm?
604597
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,114 Posts
@Daze513 got the tune uploaded last night after I got the TT installed and so far the bike does run lol. I want to get all the wiring cleaned up and I need to get the PV mounted to the handlebars then I'll be ready to start logging. It may have just been coincidence, but the bike started up very quickly (quicker than normal). Hardly any cranking before it fired up. Thanks again for the tune!

I do have one question. You mention you raised the rev limiter on this tune to 9500 rpm. When I look at the VE and AFR tables it only goes to 9k rpm? Is the software just only able to go to 9k rpm?
View attachment 604597
ECM will fudge the difference between the two.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
@Daze513 got the tune uploaded last night after I got the TT installed and so far the bike does run lol. I want to get all the wiring cleaned up and I need to get the PV mounted to the handlebars then I'll be ready to start logging. It may have just been coincidence, but the bike started up very quickly (quicker than normal). Hardly any cranking before it fired up. Thanks again for the tune!

I do have one question. You mention you raised the rev limiter on this tune to 9500 rpm. When I look at the VE and AFR tables it only goes to 9k rpm? Is the software just only able to go to 9k rpm?
View attachment 604597
Good to hear it loaded up well. I’ll be looking out for your feedback. Catch logs on your initial runs.

As for the 9500, the ECU carries its last programmed values (9000 rpm) with a few tiny safety adjustment. However I did that change more than anything for a cushion during shifting. With the redline at 9100 stock, I was bumping the limiter while initiating a hard shift. With the RPM cushion now I can initiate the shift right at 9k without bumping the limiter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
Good to hear it loaded up well. I’ll be looking out for your feedback. Catch logs on your initial runs.

As for the 9500, the ECU carries its last programmed values (9000 rpm) with a few tiny safety adjustment. However I did that change more than anything for a cushion during shifting. With the redline at 9100 stock, I was bumping the limiter while initiating a hard shift. With the RPM cushion now I can initiate the shift right at 9k without bumping the limiter.
Got a chance to test out the tune over the weekend at the V-Rod Rally. Bike runs fine and it very well could be rider mod, but it seems a bit down on power in comparison to other bikes with similar mods as me. That or the Akrapovic just really makes a lot less power than the V&H and Fitz exhausts. I was able to run a best of 12.22 @ 110.97 in the 1/4. I was hoping for at least a high 11 in the mid 115 ish mph so seems a bit off. I do need to do some datalogging still, but I am also going to start looking into a dyno tune. It put down 115whp and 84wtq although the bike was hitting the "rev limiter" at 8k rpm on all 3 pulls. It was very odd. The bike was pulling to 9500rpm per the stock tach just fine the day before.

Dyno video:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,114 Posts
Got a chance to test out the tune over the weekend at the V-Rod Rally. Bike runs fine and it very well could be rider mod, but it seems a bit down on power in comparison to other bikes with similar mods as me. That or the Akrapovic just really makes a lot less power than the V&H and Fitz exhausts. I was able to run a best of 12.22 @ 110.97 in the 1/4. I was hoping for at least a high 11 in the mid 115 ish mph so seems a bit off. I do need to do some datalogging still, but I am also going to start looking into a dyno tune. It put down 115whp and 84wtq although the bike was hitting the "rev limiter" at 8k rpm on all 3 pulls. It was very odd. The bike was pulling to 9500rpm per the stock tach just fine the day before.

Dyno video:
Doubt it's the pipe as I've seen a couple of 140s stage 2 with that pipe. You can't expect it to pull max power just by slapping someone elses tune. Sounds like it was hitting the cold engine soft rev limit of 8k. It will only hit 9k or whatever when it reaches a certain temp and above.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
43 Posts
Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Got a chance to test out the tune over the weekend at the V-Rod Rally. Bike runs fine and it very well could be rider mod, but it seems a bit down on power in comparison to other bikes with similar mods as me. That or the Akrapovic just really makes a lot less power than the V&H and Fitz exhausts. I was able to run a best of 12.22 @ 110.97 in the 1/4. I was hoping for at least a high 11 in the mid 115 ish mph so seems a bit off. I do need to do some datalogging still, but I am also going to start looking into a dyno tune. It put down 115whp and 84wtq although the bike was hitting the "rev limiter" at 8k rpm on all 3 pulls. It was very odd. The bike was pulling to 9500rpm per the stock tach just fine the day before.

Dyno video:
Glad it ran well. The power could be down because every engine is different. Is your air box topless? Not sure how the akro compares to the VH, but sure there will be differences in airflow there.

Did the dyno runs log any AFR values? Any feedback they gave would be great to hear

About the redline I’m not sure what it could be other than a soft limit by the ECU.

Let me know if you get any dyno tuning time.

Edit: I looked at your video and there are definitely airflow differences as you have exhaust popping and even some flame on one of the pops. I hear no pops and just gurgles on my setup.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
277 Posts
Glad it ran well. The power could be down because every engine is different. Is your air box topless? Not sure how the akro compares to the VH, but sure there will be differences in airflow there.

Did the dyno runs log any AFR values? Any feedback they gave would be great to hear

About the redline I’m not sure what it could be other than a soft limit by the ECU.

Let me know if you get any dyno tuning time.

Edit: I looked at your video and there are definitely airflow differences as you have exhaust popping and even some flame on one of the pops. I hear no pops and just gurgles on my setup.
I apologize if my post sounded whiny as that was not at all my intent. I am very grateful you sent me this tune to get started with as it is by far the closest thing out there for me to work with. My airbox is not topless. Anthony Rodrigues in Australia recently tested this out on his dyno with, without and with a modified airbox. No difference in whp or any kind of noticeable AFR running either of the 3 different methods. So I just leave mine on.

I've since learned that when my bike was on the dyno it was cold and it was hitting the cold 8k rpm rev limiter. You can see at 8k rpm the numbers were still climbing so I have no doubt in my mind that the numbers are better. I was more frustrated with my track times which is a guarantee'd rider error as there were guys with the same mods running upper 11's and my absolute best time was a 12.22 at 110.97.

Fitzgerald was not logging AFR as it was a dyno day and they were trying to get 30+ bikes onto the dyno for a couple quick pulls. It was also insanley humid as it was a very hot and wet weekend and some bikes were down as much as 10whp from previous years.

604817
 
1 - 20 of 21 Posts
Top