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Two 2003 VRSCA's: CTHULHU is Black/Sterling, N/A ; EVIL TWIN is Anodized and S/C
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Discussion Starter · #63 ·
Updated Build sheet. I have both the DTT and the PCV on here just to bookmark the part numbers. Have to choose one over the other. My Dyno guru is now Dan Thayer. He uses both but is leaning towards the DTT for my build. He specified C16 fuel for it and wants to run it in late November/Early December. So now I have a completion deadline. I can always rob the V&H Comp. Series 2-1 I have on Cthulhu for this build if money gets tight. I can also pull the dyno run with the belt drive and switch to chain in the spring of 2023 if money is tight. Main thing is getting it there on time for Dan. He wants it cool out but not COLD because his dyno booth is not heated and he runs several fans. He dresses for the occasion but doesn't want to have to wear a fvcking snomobile suit lol! He gets too busy any other time of the year so this is my DEADLINE!

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Discussion Starter · #64 ·
Knut J I sent an email with an invoice request to MecTec for the caged bearings. On your recommendation! Let's hope Kjell-Anders Sildeman can work with me as he hasta ship from Sweden to USA. I have time, am in no hurry as you can see on my build sheet above. I shall begin the tear-down in August when my buddy visits from North Dakota. He's going to help me film, photograph, and catalog it all. Then I'll have approximately 3 months to build it before my Dyno appointment. Should be enough time to wait on parts and account for anything I might have overlooked.
 

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Knut J I sent an email with an invoice request to MecTec for the caged bearings. On your recommendation! Let's hope Kjell-Anders Sildeman can work with me as he hasta ship from Sweden to USA. I have time, am in no hurry as you can see on my build sheet above. I shall begin the tear-down in August when my buddy visits from North Dakota. He's going to help me film, photograph, and catalog it all. Then I'll have approximately 3 months to build it before my Dyno appointment. Should be enough time to wait on parts and account for anything I might have overlooked.
I would get wrenching asap as the amount of dyno time you need will be more than you expect. Between the cams and the blower I would estimate a good 2 days of dyno/tuning time. You will have to dial in your VE table which will take a decent amount of time regardless of what spreadsheet/tool you use to create a baseline map.

Also.....don't underestimate the desire to advance timing without proper knock sensing. If you are using either of those two aftermarket options for an ECU I recommend VERY conservative timing values and then read some plugs after a run (tedious, but you aren't left with anything else if you abandon the oem ion-sensing system).

Just trying to save you some cash and expensive dyno time....
 

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Discussion Starter · #66 ·
Thanks freudie I do value your advice. I abandoned the notion of having my local H-D shop dyno it. There are too many regulations in NY and I heard they have to adhere to them so funk dat noise lol. Dan Thayer is his own man. Machinist Builder racer dyno tuner. He made an appointment with me a couple weeks ago and gave me 3 hours of his time at the end of the day to show me what he's all about and explained a lot of things to me. Gave me a complete tour of his facilities. He's low key and humble but extremely intelligent and has experience with Superchargers and Turbos and Nitrous and everything in between. He gets called to help dyno shops learn how to tune. I have every confidence in him. But I take all advice from every side and keep it all tucked away so I can apply it where and when necessary so thank you and thanks to everyone here. I couldn't have the confidence to tackle this without you all!

Sean
 

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Seems to me the Ion Sensing for knock should be retained for boosted applications if possible. DTT replaces the OEM Delphi ECU and doesn't have it. Doesn't the PCV still use the stock ECU and retain Ion knock sensing & timing retard Freudie ?
 

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Discussion Starter · #68 ·
Yes SRR you are correct. I would still like to go the PCV route but Dan told me if I consistently run C16 fuel and it is tuned to a T that there should be no knock. I'm nervous about this but he discussed it at length. He is a vendor for both systems. He's not biased one way or the other because I'm going to buy either one of them through him anyway. I'm not sure I completely understood him. But there is time for additional conversations before we decide.
 

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Yes SRR you are correct. I would still like to go the PCV route but Dan told me if I consistently run C16 fuel and it is tuned to a T that there should be no knock. I'm nervous about this but he discussed it at length. He is a vendor for both systems. He's not biased one way or the other because I'm going to buy either one of them through him anyway. I'm not sure I completely understood him. But there is time for additional conversations before we decide.
Bold statement (i.e. C16 and no knock). It certainly will give you a ton more latitude in timing advance, but to what amount at what load I couldn't say.

Another thought....is this a drag bike only? You know why I ask (VP C16 is about $25.00 a gallon right now!).

As for "best of both worlds" when it comes to aftermarket ECU and boost capable? I'd talk to Ron and JohnR about the PCV PTI (I think that's the correct acronym). It's a "piggyback" unit, but it retains the Delphi ECU + allows the PCV to intercept signals and let you tune based on MAP sensor values and/or TPS all boost referenced.

Not trying to be "that guy", but the DTT is kind of like carving with a butter knife (and their support is a joke).
 

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Bold statement (i.e. C16 and no knock). It certainly will give you a ton more latitude in timing advance, but to what amount at what load I couldn't say.

Another thought....is this a drag bike only? You know why I ask (VP C16 is about $25.00 a gallon right now!).

As for "best of both worlds" when it comes to aftermarket ECU and boost capable? I'd talk to Ron and JohnR about the PCV PTI (I think that's the correct acronym). It's a "piggyback" unit, but it retains the Delphi ECU + allows the PCV to intercept signals and let you tune based on MAP sensor values and/or TPS all boost referenced.

Not trying to be "that guy", but the DTT is kind of like carving with a butter knife (and their support is a joke).
Ron here. We decided against usning the PTI part, which all the PCV are capable of, just so you know. Only difference is if you order the PTI it comes internally wired, which is only one wire you would add to the sockets of the PCV box anyway to read the 2 or whatever bar MAP sensor if it's installed. We went with TPS tune instead, mostly due to the pulsey nature of the v twin a lower rpms, not real friendly in that area for stable pressure readings. In Johns case, it's PCV with Autotune set up for TPS tuning.
Ron
 

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Ron here. We decided against usning the PTI part, which all the PCV are capable of, just so you know. Only difference is if you order the PTI it comes internally wired, which is only one wire you would add to the sockets of the PCV box anyway to read the 2 or whatever bar MAP sensor if it's installed. We went with TPS tune instead, mostly due to the pulsey nature of the v twin a lower rpms, not real friendly in that area for stable pressure readings. In Johns case, it's PCV with Autotune set up for TPS tuning.
Ron
Ah! I vaguely recall that detail from you guys. So essentially you are tuning alpha-n style.
 

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Discussion Starter · #72 ·
Thank you guys. I'll discuss this with Dan. I'm not sure he's aware of the capability of our single unit coils as far as their ion sensing function is...he's going to be tuning another VRod from my area and the owner just installed a TTS-PERFORMANCE Stage 1 kit. So...Dan can get used to it with that bike and he should be able to extrapolate that tuning data for my bike. I think that guy went DTT. Ill keep up on it and keep you guys in the loop. I value your contributions to this thread!

Freudie this will be my dedicated drag racing bike. I have an N/A 2003 A model (CTHULHU) for the street. I've raced it and will continue to race it this season until I have EVIL TWIN ready for next season. I might get squirrely and want to romp on EVIL TWIN round abouts my house occasionally but I'll be mindful of the expense of the fuel. I am going to buy a 54 gallon drum of C16 for next year. I know prices just jacked but maybe by next year it will be more stable. Who knows. Dan said it's better to buy a drum than a can because of how the fuel behaves in the container. A stable drum in a cool dry place like my barn will give more performance than a frequently disturbed 5 gallon can. Dan explained it better but he said it's a winner's secret ;)

Sean
 

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Ah! I vaguely recall that detail from you guys. So essentially you are tuning alpha-n style.
Yup, Alpha-N. Big difference or choice for using PCV was boiled down to keeping ion sensing function intact. DTT or TMAX do not use this feature, which we both thought being it's road tune, on a base cal we made up, a feature worth keeping . We can log the bike with PV and look for any knock events that way. Started with POD logging but it's limited in file size per run(s) . So far, I've only seen on minor -2 pull from a knock event, which went away with more refinement from the autotune process. I will say this and sure John will agree, road tuning a SC is an absolute prick to do. Not enough time spent in an area of higher tps areas for quick data collection. It accelerates too fast. 🤣 Dyno rules in that regard.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #74 ·
KnutJ I got my tracking info from MecTec. 3 caged needle bearings. Shipping costs sucked but I'm confident in your recommendation that these are the absolute best and MecTec was very honest about these costs and I accepted it knowing he's only charging actual rate. Just the way of the world these days with shipping being outrageous no matter what you are shipping and where. I've lost multiple deals on wheels, heads, and exhausts due to outrageous shipping costs quoted after the agreement was made despite my inclination to give members my lowest bottom line price on my parts. I still have a set of '03A stock heads all boxed up and ready to go sitting in the back seat well of my truck -for weeks- when the deal was lost because it costs as much as I was charging for the heads just to ship them to Cananadada. I remember the days when I used to part out Ironheads no problem because shipping was so cheap I could quote it as "free" or "included in price". Now I can't even get someone to buy an IAC bolt. Sorry about the rant.

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
So a question for the S/C gurus. I'm looking at buying my pistons soon. What compression ratio should I be running? 1130cc. Stock bore/stroke (100x72). TTS-Performance Stage 2 S/C with a C30-74 Rotrex. 12+ lbs. of boost. 80mm pulley. The engine will be braced and utilizing ARP bolts and studs. Fitzgerald billet oil pan (and brace). Jones Stage 2 Cams (still waiting on my order).

I am going to get the SwainTech Gold Coat on the piston domes, TBC Coating on the head domes and the valves, with the PC-9 coating on the piston skirts. The thickness of the Gold Coat application is 0.003" thick. The thickness of the TBC Coating is 0.002" Thick. The thickness of the PC-9 is 0.0008" thick.

So I'm getting conflicting information on the compression ratio for the pistons. I was going to go 9.5:1 but a guy on FB said he has the same setup and went "slightly higher than stock" with his compression ratio. I can only assume that means 12:1 I'm concerned about clearance with a higher than stock compression ratio.

Thanks,

Sean
 

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Discussion Starter · #78 ·
What is the recommended method for cleaning and preparing the heads and valves for these coatings? Pistons will be new. I'll wear gloves when I inspect them upon receipt.
 

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Updated Build sheet. I have both the DTT and the PCV on here just to bookmark the part numbers. Have to choose one over the other. My Dyno guru is now Dan Thayer. He uses both but is leaning towards the DTT for my build. He specified C16 fuel for it and wants to run it in late November/Early December. So now I have a completion deadline. I can always rob the V&H Comp. Series 2-1 I have on Cthulhu for this build if money gets tight. I can also pull the dyno run with the belt drive and switch to chain in the spring of 2023 if money is tight. Main thing is getting it there on time for Dan. He wants it cool out but not COLD because his dyno booth is not heated and he runs several fans. He dresses for the occasion but doesn't want to have to wear a fvcking snomobile suit lol! He gets too busy any other time of the year so this is my DEADLINE!

View attachment 610292
Hi mate, i'll be happy to follow this post!
(and sorry for my english)

I've purchased the same supercharger kit from TTS and received it also couple of months ago. I bought also the fuel pump and bigger injectors.

On my bike i had already a set of Toxic Pipes, k&n filter and Powercommander, but i've never tuned the bike, i just changed the stock fuel map for the one Toxic Pipes gave to me.

I can see you have a lot of knowledge and you did, and you are still doing, a lot of research before the insalation which is great. It wasn't the case with me, unfortunetly, here in Portugal we don't have any shops doing this kind of works in HD's so it's all a bit new. I didn't even know this forum existed!

So this is my story:

I took my bike to the dyno just to know how much HP it had on the wheel and it showed 103HP on the wheel.

My mechanic installed the supercharger kit and we had to make/buy a few custom pieces because my bike is already extremely customized. Mainly we had to relocate the oil cooler that comes with the SC kit because my exhaust wouldnt give enough clearence to install on the place TTS says, we had to costumize the gear shift linkage because it was rubbing onsays, but in the end it was really cool the final result.

I would say that if you dont have any setbacks it will take a full day (6-8 hours) to mount the supercherger kit, Richard from tts probably mounts it in 3 hours but thats because he created it lol.

The first time we fired the bike... omg what a monster.. i dont have a db killer on my straight pipe so it reallyy becomes a monster and the revving is so fast...

So next step was to take it to the dyno. On the dyno, the tune guy said he was feeling that after 5700 rpm the clutch couldn't handle the power so it would start to slip. So the reinforced clutch is a must, or at least stronger springs to huld the clutch plates.

Nevertheless, after tunning it, he did a few runs registering between 164 and 180HP on the wheel. And this numbers were while the clutch was slipping so the numbers will probably go higher.

After the Dyno i took it to the mechanic to put stronger clutch springs, i still drove it about 30-40 km and when i got there.. problems started.

So i had engine lots of oil coming from the air filter (air filter was soaked in oil) and black smoke coming from the exhaust. Probably the piston ring went to hell but this week the mechanic will be opening the engine to take a look.

I am now a bit desperate because i can't find forged pistons and rods and i have sent a few emails to companies that had it in the past but no one is replying.

My mechanic called TTS and they advised to get JE forged pistons and rod but on their website there isnt any option for the 1250cc engine.

I saw that CP-Carrillo pistons and rod might be an option as well but again on their website i dont seem to identify the Vrod 1250cc parts.

Any advice on where i can get them? (and good luck to your project!)
 

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Before putting engine to pieces it might be good idea to verify piston ring damage also by compression and/or leakage tests from spark plug holes.

Not so familiar how the oiling is organized with Rotrex SC but with turbo it can be flooded by oil if there is not proper oil restrictor used in supply. Also plenum can be full of oil if breathing is not enough e.g. too small breather filter and tubing. It is good to remember that with those hp numbers engine is bigger air pump also.

Wish you strength in troubleshooting (y)
 
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