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No idea. It was a low mileage bike when I got it a 2 years ago. It had around 11000 miles. Now about 17000. I will dig into more next week. I was devastated to see this. Tempted to get a used engine to drop in it and do a tear down later.

Last year I had a shop change my shift drum because it was sliding out of 2nd. I know they had to split the case. I don't think they would mess with the cam caps but maybe. Or it has always ran like 馃挬 since I owned it and I just figured its how it sounded. Frustrating to say the least. I think I will just grab a used engine at this point. It will give me a great parts engine.
Can't see them touching the cam area either unless they figured it was time to do a valve check. This would be shown in the work order as part of the tasks performed. On the clock, I doubt they would do any more then needed, as in shift forks and put it all back together. Covers and cam chain timing and call it done , most likely.
Ron
 

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I would not think they had that apart either. Around 15k is when the first valve adjustment is supposed to be done. Dont think it was done before that. Hmm another delima.
 

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Managed to dig this up, somewhat related as to a possible cause.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #24
Managed to dig this up, somewhat related as to a possible cause.
Ron
Interesting read. Probably exactly what happened by the previous owner. Thanks for the information.
 

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Yeah I guess I will change my bolts next valve adjustment. I reused mines at least four times. I still believe someone screwed up on torque at one time or another. A practice I use if u are going to reuse the bolt. I am careful with torque. The torque is for new bolts. U go in there and put that torque on a used bolt. U have to feel the bolt tightness. Not just rely on the tool. If there is oil under the bolt can give false readings etc.
 

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Yeah I guess I will change my bolts next valve adjustment. I reused mines at least four times. I still believe someone screwed up on torque at one time or another. A practice I use if u are going to reuse the bolt. I am careful with torque. The torque is for new bolts. U go in there and put that torque on a used bolt. U have to feel the bolt tightness. Not just rely on the tool. If there is oil under the bolt can give false readings etc.
Did you notice in the SM, at least in one spot of the several on the same operations it shows oiling the bolt up before installing? I agree, dry or lubed the 86"lbs can result in two different torques. Torque wrenches can also be notoriously inaccurate . Using anything but motor oil can screw it up also. All of the other critical fasteners that are torque plus degree are lubed as well. So this raises the question for the guys who have done valve shimming a few times. Do you oil the bolts or torque them dry?
Ron
 

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For me, the old bolts usually have enough oil. New bolts need oil. Yep this practice is normal. Putting oil on head bolts etc before torque. And that's usually under the head of bolt.
 

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For me, the old bolts usually have enough oil. New bolts need oil. Yep this practice is normal. Putting oil on head bolts etc before torque. And that's usually under the head of bolt.
Sounds about right. High friction area at the contact point on those bolt heads.
Ron
 

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I bought a set of cam ARP bearing cap bolts from Vreelands for like $ 110 - the stock bolts are really not very robust looking for the forces they must resist - I'd say if you pull the cam caps to shim valves just put new bolts in there be they H-D for stock single use or better yet ARP - especially with stronger valve springs, bigger cams. Multiple bolt uses ? Don't think that's the best idea. I think H-D built the engine to sell, not to maintain over & over, many of their bolts are " one use only " due to the thread lock patch on the bolts, but you can clean and re-use them with new locktite. But Cam cap bolts look weak, and they are weak - skinny looking barely adequate, if any are they should be one use. Used carefully obviously guys get away with multiple uses, but you never know what the guy before you did and all of us have seen stupid shit happen in the hands of less than experienced mechanics. Also if you get too much oil or locktite in a dead ended threaded bore you can get a hydraulic lock that will give a false torque. Later it seeps past the threads with time and you guessed it - loose bolts that get broken off by cyclic loads. Clean oil out of bores and when in doubt replace bolts - I consider any internal to the cases bolt to be a one use - if for nothing else to keep me from kicking myself in the A$$ later. (y) :cool:
 

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Hate those damn loctite patch bolts. Best left for assembly line and lazy HD techs. They see a wire wheel before use and regular loctite on my watch. Pretty sure nobody uses loctite on the cam cap bolts, so over twisting them isn't an issue. Hydro lock can happen if not careful but those holes would require quite a bit to cause it. As for the bolts themselves, yup, pretty damn small and critical. All the cam operational loads are up toward the caps with those bolts doing the job. Torque is critical to get the right stretch and eliminate any cam cycling loads effecting the bolt in operation. I've yet to determine what grade they are and torque load ratings are all over the place for the same 8.8 grade on the internet. I believe these cam bolts are 8.8 grade, and the flanged head 8.8 do come in close to the book torque of 86" lbs, in the split of dry/oiled ranges. On a 10.9, which I believe it's the grade used here, 86"lbs is about 65% stretch or less . Very minimal stretch at best. When you get into the 85% range, it's mostly a one time use bolt, that being the 8.8 grade in this case. Being flanged the stretch will be reduced at the same torque value, so it's a 50/50 reusable or not assuming dead nuts on the torque wrench calibration. Between dry, oiled, and questionalble torque wrench calibration, there's plenty of error factor that could bite you in the ass down the road. So, who here has their torque wrench calibrated to exactly 86"lbs? Now that I confused the whole thing, my job here is done. 馃榿
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #31
So after further disassembly the exhaust valves were seized in the open position. Which caused the cam to blow the cam cap apart as well as break the chain. Looking into the fuel intake port it has a huge amount carbon build up. The carbon build up looks to be delaminating off the walls. I wonder if chunks of carbon seized the valves. I am sending the fuel injectors out to get tested. The spark plug was ashy as well. I also wonder if the V&H fuel Pak is not good for the bike.
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Generally a rich mixture like that won't cause valves to stick. Bad valve seals allowing oil get between the stem and guide over time will choke the valve stem to the seizing stage. This would be a wet looking black crusty carbon indication and I'm not really seeing that in the pics. Both seizing at the same time would be rare. One thing that can do it is a bike stored exposed to high humidity for long periods with the exhaust, or intake valves open can rust the stems up. They likely will gall up the guide and get tight. Not sure if this is the case or not. I think you meant intakes were stuck, not the exhaust since it was blowing in your face and the pics show intakes open. The soot you see in the intake tract is fairly normal and from reversion. No sign of running lean, that's for sure. I'm somewhat stuck for an explanation as to how both would freeze up but the stress imposed has to go somewhere as in the cap and chain. In the real world exhaust valves are more prone to seizing, intakes almost never due to them running so much cooler. Weird shit for sure, especially have them both stick partly open. I guess that's better then fully open. Piston hates that. On that note, it's also possible the piston hit them and bent them enough so they don't close. Pull them and see. That would make the most sense other then why they made contact in the first place.
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Discussion Starter #33
It is very puzzling. The piston does look as if it made contact. It will be fun getting the valves out the tappets are wedged in the space. I am thinking of drilling a hole to attach a puller.

Thanks again for all the help.
 

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Cam chain may have broke, piston came up, hit the valves broke the cam caps & bolts - I don't think it happened the other way around but who the heck knows ?
 

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Cam chain may have broke, piston came up, hit the valves broke the cam caps & bolts - I don't think it happened the other way around but who the heck knows ?
I am leaning more this way. I don't see that damage being caused by the piston hitting the valves in a normal cycle. I dropped a valve once on the rev limiter and the piston turned the valve into a nice piece of art and did some damage to the seat, but nothing else was damaged. And as Ron says its so unlikely that 2 valves would be down unless the cam was holding them there while the piston came back up. Also as Ron says there is nothing out of the ordinary in the ports with regard to carbon. Looks exactly like the old UK Ford diesels use to look when they snapped a belt, was always a toss up with them whether the cam caps broke or it punched a section of camshaft out between the caps. Deifinetly cam chain snapped first in my book.
 

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Cam chain may have broke, piston came up, hit the valves broke the cam caps & bolts - I don't think it happened the other way around but who the heck knows ?
Yep sounds like chain broke. That may be the reason for minimal damage to valves. Piston was able to push them back up since no interference from chain. And broke cap. Wonder how loose the chain may have been. Need a pic of top of piston. And pic of cam sprockets.
 

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It is very puzzling. The piston does look as if it made contact. It will be fun getting the valves out the tappets are wedged in the space. I am thinking of drilling a hole to attach a puller.

Thanks again for all the help.
I don't think I would be bothering. You can't swap cam caps, so basically cyl head is toast without paying for a lot of machine work (line boring etc). Cheapest and simplest fix for this is a S/H cyl head. Look for one complete with cams and buckets, check valve clearances and away to go.
 

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Quite a few on Ebay.
Here is a pair with everything you need for $400
Only thing is I hoped they marked which caps came from which head!!

Or a safer bet.

Many more also.
 

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Head and cam caps should be sequenced number marked. At least mine are 1-8, all arrows to the center. As for the buckets frozen, more likely top of hole got some impact damage to the bore holding them in. Both, is weird though as that cap had to be bouncing around in there for a while. To me, that means the chain didn't break first in this failure. Still looks like the cam cap detatched, beat the crap out of the top of the bucket hole(s) which would slightly open the intake valve(s) and further running like this, the chain said enough, I wasn't designed for this shit. Failure analysis as I see it. If the chain broke first there would be no other damage in there, as the cams would have stopped turning.
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Head and cam caps should be sequenced number marked. At least mine are 1-8, all arrows to the center. As for the buckets frozen, more likely top of hole got some impact damage to the bore holding them in. Both, is weird though as that cap had to be bouncing around in there for a while. To me, that means the chain didn't break first in this failure. Still looks like the cam cap detatched, beat the crap out of the top of the bucket hole(s) which would slightly open the intake valve(s) and further running like this, the chain said enough, I wasn't designed for this shit. Failure analysis as I see it. If the chain broke first there would be no other damage in there, as the cams would have stopped turning.
Ron
Very valid point, and there lies another anomaly. Could the cam cap actually come up off the camshaft with the cover in place? Maybe the bolts gave way, cam cap got a battering while being run, until it couldn't stand any more and broke in two. Then the cam managed to hold on briefly with one cap causing all the moving around damage,then maybe jammed the cam and snapped the chain. Be interesting to see some more pics of the other cam cap, camshaft etc.
 
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