[freudie1]

Backstory:

Problem #1:

If you have turbocharged or supercharged your Vrod you may have noticed there are NO shaft seals in the throttle body. "So what! I have been running my turbo/supercharger/leaf blower for years this way", you say.

Indeed! You also are venting boost to atmosphere when it should be going into your engine (and not a little bit by the way).

Why did Harley NOT include seals? Two reasons: Cheap and no reason for an engine that was never designed to see forced induction.

Problem #2:

It's been well known (I have lost count of how many stories/tales of woe I have read about this issue) that stock throttle body shafts are a problem. They don't capture the plates (the butterflies mount on the shafts, not between a slot/captured). Carsten from Holy-Moto (now defunct) created the solution to this by fabricating shafts with a wire EDM'd slot in the center to capture butterflies as previous vendors attempts at welding screws did not solve the issue.

YES this has been reported even with stock cams. It really gets exacerbated when you use cams such as the SE2 cams from the MoCo. Supposedly not so much the case with Jones cams, but none the less the stock design of the shaft is anything but safe (ask the unfortunate soles that had an engine eat a screw).


The Solution:

I have been working with a local and very high end machine shop to perform the following:

• Install lip seals on ALL points of boost leak/areas that need sealing: This includes not only the sides with bearings, but the other side where the shafts go through a bushing. This WILL solve the boost leak issue permanently. This is not a "remove shaft and install magic seals that fit" solution. It requires precision machining and very small seals (that were horrific to source). It looks OEM (and frankly should have been there in the first place, however cheap rules the MoCo) and will function as such (the bearings are replaced with brand new ones during this process).
• Create essentially a copy with a few improvements of the old Holy-Moto shaft design (once again, a captured/wire EDM'd style shaft).

The Bad:

This kind of custom machine work is not cheap (especially in the volume, or rather lack thereof, that Vrods command).

I am going to post pictures of the finished product in about a month. My plan is to offer this as a mail-in service (or possibly core based if I can get a few throttle bodies in hand).

I'm planning on an initial run of 50 shaft sets (this might change as it's costing me a pretty penny or 10 to get these made.....).

The throttle bodies will NOT be offered in a bored out/larger option. I don't think they are necessary for anyone but big bore/drag strip used Revos (argue away, I don't care for big bore options...only forced induction when it comes to this bike).

Turn around time will be likely a month unless I can get some cores in hand and get a few pre-made on the shelf. However, unless interest is decent I'm not planning on anything but batches to be produced. At the current moment that's equal to about 1 month turnaround.

Soooooooooooo.....if this interests you, let me know. If it doesn't, OK! I'm not posting this to argue facts or opinion, just offering up a solution to a problem that no one has really solved in all these years.

 

[Jeffc12566]

Sounds like something my engine could benefit from, I have a spare throttle body

 

[freudie1]

Sounds like something my engine could benefit from, I have a spare throttle body

I'll let you know when I'm ready to get it in progress. I've been drawing and running back and forth to the machine shop for 2 months now. Glad to finally get this (and another much larger project) put into reality.

 

[Jeffc12566]

The amount of research and time that goes into projects is huge! Sounds great just keep me posted
Thanks!

 

[Knut J]

Interesting! Keep us updated, V-rod world needs people like you.

 

[Rapidone]

Very interested and have a spare throttle body.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[freudie1]

Interesting! Keep us updated, V-rod world needs people like you.

Much appreciated. Sometimes I think I talk to myself due to the low volume on this forum. Most of my "ideas" are literally personal projects that friends convince me to market. I've got some fairly wild stuff coming from my shop, I just need to finish drawing and get the CNC shop busy (that and open my wallet).

For anyone that cares...I bought a HUGE 3D printer over the winter to speed up development. Such a game changer. No more CAD....go to machine shop....create an ashtray....kick and scream about wasted cash, redraw/repeat. With the 3D printer I literally draw, print, hold up to the bike, keep on going. If only PLA was acceptable for actual parts...ha!

 

[dimebag]

Interested

 

[johnr204]

Backstory:

Problem #1:

If you have turbocharged or supercharged your Vrod you may have noticed there are NO shaft seals in the throttle body. "So what! I have been running my turbo/supercharger/leaf blower for years this way", you say.

Indeed! You also are venting boost to atmosphere when it should be going into your engine (and not a little bit by the way).

Why did Harley NOT include seals? Two reasons: Cheap and no reason for an engine that was never designed to see forced induction.

Problem #2:

It's been well known (I have lost count of how many stories/tales of woe I have read about this issue) that stock throttle body shafts are a problem. They don't capture the plates (the butterflies mount on the shafts, not between a slot/captured). Carsten from Holy-Moto (now defunct) created the solution to this by fabricating shafts with a wire EDM'd slot in the center to capture butterflies as previous vendors attempts at welding screws did not solve the issue.

YES this has been reported even with stock cams. It really gets exacerbated when you use cams such as the SE2 cams from the MoCo. Supposedly not so much the case with Jones cams, but none the less the stock design of the shaft is anything but safe (ask the unfortunate soles that had an engine eat a screw).


The Solution:

I have been working with a local and very high end machine shop to perform the following:

• Install lip seals on ALL points of boost leak/areas that need sealing: This includes not only the sides with bearings, but the other side where the shafts go through a bushing. This WILL solve the boost leak issue permanently. This is not a "remove shaft and install magic seals that fit" solution. It requires precision machining and very small seals (that were horrific to source). It looks OEM (and frankly should have been there in the first place, however cheap rules the MoCo) and will function as such (the bearings are replaced with brand new ones during this process).
• Create essentially a copy with a few improvements of the old Holy-Moto shaft design (once again, a captured/wire EDM'd style shaft).

The Bad:

This kind of custom machine work is not cheap (especially in the volume, or rather lack thereof, that Vrods command).

I am going to post pictures of the finished product in about a month. My plan is to offer this as a mail-in service (or possibly core based if I can get a few throttle bodies in hand).

I'm planning on an initial run of 50 shaft sets (this might change as it's costing me a pretty penny or 10 to get these made.....).

The throttle bodies will NOT be offered in a bored out/larger option. I don't think they are necessary for anyone but big bore/drag strip used Revos (argue away, I don't care for big bore options...only forced induction when it comes to this bike).

Turn around time will be likely a month unless I can get some cores in hand and get a few pre-made on the shelf. However, unless interest is decent I'm not planning on anything but batches to be produced. At the current moment that's equal to about 1 month turnaround.

Soooooooooooo.....if this interests you, let me know. If it doesn't, OK! I'm not posting this to argue facts or opinion, just offering up a solution to a problem that no one has really solved in all these years.

*Souls.......
Jus sayin.......

 

[mukle]

I have edm machine at my work and made slotted shafts to my 58mm TB. Shafts are silver steel EN 1.2210 and blades 1.5mm thick AL-7075 aerospace grade aluminium. Those screws in the picture has been replaced to 10.9. grade screws. Secured by glueing and hammered small dents to other side. Did not want to weld them in the case of disassembly.

Please Freudie keep on going good work. This is highly recommended upgrade in my opinion. I cannot start making them more.

 

[freudie1]

I'm back from the land of prototyping!

The GOOD news: It works!

What did I do?

Here goes:

First, on the side with the bearing, I removed the bearing from the bore it sits in. Then I had the bore cut deeper. Then I installed a nice lip seal and a new bearing after that. On the other side (the one with the bushing) I had the bore AND the bushing cut/made deeper. I then installed a nice lip seal with a spring retainer/girdle built in.

The result? NO LEAKS! NONE! I tested it so far with my usual ghetto boost leak tester (rubber boot, pvc cap, schraeder valve, and my bike racing tire pump + some fancy duct tape sealing on the top side of each bore to seal during testing....oh yeah, and of course the IAC hole in each bore (forgot that initially and swore I had a seal leak until I drank coffee).

The result of the boost leak test? I can physically move my hand up with the duct tape when you pump the air pump. FYI: My air pump can pump over 120 psi into bike racing tires....I guesstimate this would hold at least 40 psi if I had a way to actually seal the top side of each bore (I might make a test pipe with gasket groove/gasket to bolt into the top side with my 3D printer if I get so inclined to really give it the beans!).

The BAD!

This was not cheap. The lip seal on the bearing side was very small and odd spec. I had to figuratively go around the globe to find such a rare beast deep in eastern europe. Shipping was more expensive than the actual seals (yeah stupid). I'm hunting for a US source via my machine shop friends to get these down in cost and increase availability.

The machine work was fairly easy, but required precision. Took the shop a month to get around to it (small jobs always get last priority), BUT all is well.

Fun story: When I first got the throttle body back I thought the shafts were too hard to rotate with the seals. We trimmed a tiny amount of each lip seal to loosen the fit. Yeah......that worked great except for leak city. Who would have guessed lip seals only work when they compress around the shaft. HA.

So, I had the pleasure of disassembling the entire prototype, reinstalling unmolested seals...and then discovered joy. The springs in the throttle body assembly are stronger than I thought. It does NOT snap back as crisp as stock, but from my limited bench testing it's more than sufficient for safety (and barely harder to open).

The shafts (I used a pair from Carsten/Holy Moto which look like Mukle's): They went in, however I HATE green loctite (wicking type). It got into shit it wasn't supposed to costing me another tear down. I'm going to use a tiny dab of red paste type loctite to avoid getting it where it shouldn't when installing the blade screws. ALSO!!!! If you haven't installed the Holy Moto shafts, note that on the front bore where the arm moves upward, it WILL barely hit/rub the thin nut on the front shaft. The fix? 30 seconds with a Dremel on the backside of the arm to clearance a little dimple. No more issues/rubbing.

And without further adieu....here are two pictures showing each side.

 

[freudie1]

One more thing, I have yet to mount this on the bike. I will do so shortly and check throttle pull feel/etc. After that I'll list pricing for this modification if anyone is interested (you should be, the before and after is startling in terms of leak....I can see/feel the oem TB leak with a piece of paper and my face easily).

 

[mukle]

Fantastic job Freudie! What I found difficult was to align blades so they are coaxial with the bore when they are closed. My first installation were not precise enough and blades were not closing enough. I noticed this on the running bike. IAC was ramping down to zero and engine light started to illuminate and code P0505 was thrown. Too much leak around blades to intake when idling and adjustment screw was out of range. My second alignment was more succesful after I got open those very secured screws. I put 0.05mm thick steel sheet around blades in four points and forced blades to center. Now they clap when closing and have to adjust them more open with stopper screw.

But this problem comes likely when new blades are made too. Tolerances are quite tight there.

This sealing is very interesting topic. I did not seal shafts more and minor leaks can be already shown by the marks even my shafts are full circles where they go through throttle body. Lip seal there is very good idea.

I really hope that Freudie you got this proto working as planned and put them to production.

 

[freudie1]

Fantastic job Freudie! What I found difficult was to align blades so they are coaxial with the bore when they are closed. My first installation were not precise enough and blades were not closing enough. I noticed this on the running bike. IAC was ramping down to zero and engine light started to illuminate and code P0505 was thrown. Too much leak around blades to intake when idling and adjustment screw was out of range. My second alignment was more succesful after I got open those very secured screws. I put 0.05mm thick steel sheet around blades in four points and forced blades to center. Now they clap when closing and have to adjust them more open with stopper screw.

But this problem comes likely when new blades are made too. Tolerances are quite tight there.

This sealing is very interesting topic. I did not seal shafts more and minor leaks can be already shown by the marks even my shafts are full circles where they go through throttle body. Lip seal there is very good idea.

I really hope that Freudie you got this proto working as planned and put them to production.

I noticed that too, it's a major pain in the ass to get the blades to align. My front one is a bit more open than the rear (and it's not an adjustment issue in the linkage). These really are cheaply made from the factory (read: looooooose tolerances). Not shocked as the MoCo is notorious for this.

I'm hoping I don't have the get the front blade out again. My green loctite experiment resulted in one of the blade screws being in there forever (well unless drilled out). The rear went in fine, the front....uggghh.

 

[johnr204]

I had the same issue with the blades, and alignment. Not as easy of a task as it would seem. Couldn't get the volts to spec, just would not cooperate. Good idea w/shims....
What I found that worked was shining a flashlight up from bottom and viewing from top. WOW...... They LOOK closed, until you see the gobs of light coming through. After that, I got it to an acceptable range, volt-wise. My best advice is to get this acceptable BEFORE applying loctite, or whatever method you plan to use.
Another issue I came across......
Synchronization of f&r blades.......
One would think both closed, then adjust turnbuckle and done.....
No. Did not work. Adjusted properly closed, (guessing here) when fully open the rear blade was 5 degrees from full open. NOT acceptable. Ron, a friend suggested using 2 - 1/4" drill shanks, between wall of tb & blade, adjust turnbuckle accordingly. That worked when fully open (more important IMO than when closed). Good idea Ron!!!
The other issue (among others, but fuelie addressed those) are like fuelie, my blades snap shut on the bench. But, fully assembled and operating, the throttle does not spring back, as it should. Days of messing with everything, right now I just ride like that. (Getting used to auto cruise control) But I picked up a second tb ($50 Ebay) and plan to redo the entire setup this winter, or whenever time permits. I have a second set of shafts.....
Fuelie, I would like a set of bearings & seals, message me when you have time. Wasnt aware you have spares.
John

 

[johnr204]

I noticed that too, it's a major pain in the ass to get the blades to align. My front one is a bit more open than the rear (and it's not an adjustment issue in the linkage). These really are cheaply made from the factory (read: looooooose tolerances). Not shocked as the MoCo is notorious for this.

I'm hoping I don't have the get the front blade out again. My green loctite experiment resulted in one of the blade screws being in there forever (well unless drilled out). The rear went in fine, the front....uggghh.

Heat will loosen the loctite. Works every time, but with the seals, not the best idea.....
John

 

[mukle]

Getting TPS voltages to 0.4V for idle might require drilling little larger holes to TPS sensor screws. Or minor slots with round file. I measured TPS sensor side shaft end key angle compared to blades little wrong and had to make larger holes to sensor to get it proper volts.

Also worth notice is that original plane seal above TB is crap especially if stiff plenum is used on top of it. Seal is too thick and soft material. When tightening 6pcs allen key M6 screws to right moments it can bend whole TB little bit so that the blades can start sticking again and making excessive friction. Springs cannot close throttle anymore. I throw that seal away and cut my own from the much thinner and stiffer material. Also plenum or what comes to it should have good and parallel plane against TB.

 

[freudie1]

Getting TPS voltages to 0.4V for idle might require drilling little larger holes to TPS sensor screws. Or minor slots with round file. I measured TPS sensor side shaft end key angle compared to blades little wrong and had to make larger holes to sensor to get it proper volts.

Also worth notice is that original plane seal above TB is crap especially if stiff plenum is used on top of it. Seal is too thick and soft material. When tightening 6pcs allen key M6 screws to right moments it can bend whole TB little bit so that the blades can start sticking again and making excessive friction. Springs cannot close throttle anymore. I throw that seal away and cut my own from the much thinner and stiffer material. Also plenum or what comes to it should have good and parallel plane against TB.

I was worried about that (seal on top of TB) as well during development. What I have so far is an integrated bottom section of my plenum that fits inside the lip of each bore, however I added o-ring grooves to each conical section of my plenum to seal each one as you bolt the plenum down (pictures are worth a thousand words here I know...coming soon). Doing this you should not have to worry too much about the true flatness (is that a term? ha) of the top of the throttle body as the conical sections/o-rings do the sealing.

Yeah....I just checked voltage on my modified throttle body TPS. I'm seeing .58 volts.....however I see the ECM translating that to 0% and when I fully open the TB I see a bit over 4 volts which = 100% according to the ECM.

On a fun note, I plugged in a bone stock TB (possibly messed with by previous owner). It shows .41 volts closed and a bit under 4 V wot which the ECU translates to 95-96%.....

John: Yeah, heat DOES work with loctite....unless you strip the top of the damn head off..................

So, my question is: Will this thing idle at these settings? Possibly, I have half the engine in pieces still though so it will have to wait.

 

[rbabos]

.58v is close to what the TC engines were set to. Best to dial it back to .47 max if possible. O% tps will be set , regardless of the volts on each KOE. As you know fueling is done via the voltage seen from the tps. I suspect if a cal is developed at 0.45 and the voltage is altered to 0.40 it might run a hair leaner and visa versa. There also might be a direct relationship between the tps volts and the IAC function. Back in the day, playing with larger tb on a TC engine, Steve Cole once told me if the tps volts are set too high, the ECM might fail to recognize idle correctly and this might be from the connection to the tps and IAC values in the calibration. Not saying you can't do a complete tune at .58 and dial it all in but it would be easier to start at a known good volt value and eliminate possible conflicts.
Ron

 

[johnr204]

If I recall correctly, Ron may remember better, but I did make a new plate, with relocated tps mounting holes. Worked, got the volts to .45. The issue (as I remember) was with bike running @ idle. I was "running out of steps with IAC" and couldn't get everything "happy". I made the new plate with a hole saw, cutoff wheel, and a couple drills. Easy enough, but I ended up going back to stock unit, once I did the flashlight trick.
In the images, the new one is on top. Note relationship of the small tapped holes in relation to the countersunk ones.
Not sayin this couldnt have worked, it just wasn't right. And I got scolded LOL, if I remember correctly. And, to be fair, it DID make a difference when I made it right.
John