Harley Davidson V-Rod Forum banner

1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Progress. I started a new thread. Not on purpose. Cant undo it. Need permission. I guess. Anyway So far so good. The mess found in water pump housing on the other thread is gasket material the black coating on the gasket peels off the thermostat hsg gasket and the water pump gasket. Not a big deal just collects in the water pump hsg cavity where it bleeds to atmosphere <img src="http://www.1130cc.com/forums/images/smilies/wazzup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="wazzup" class="inlineimg" />. And I decided to modify the oil pan w/ a magnet maybe two more in same area, back at the end of the oil pan near the trans, in hopes to catch more of the debris from a failed trans. Did not find any other issues that have not already mentioned. A thrust bearing worn somewhat on the corner. The Triple sprocket screw did not appear to be loose until I used my electric impact gun and it came loose without a grunt.(If u know what I mean). Since I have never had one of these this far apart, I also noticed the sprocket slides off the shaft hmmm. You would think a key way on the shaft there would be better. So I put loctite on the shaft and loctite the screw. My work area might not look the best, but you can bet that engine is clean.<img src="http://www.1130cc.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
441 Posts
Progress. I started a new thread. Not on purpose. Cant undo it. Need permission. I guess. Anyway So far so good. The mess found in water pump housing on the other thread is gasket material the black coating on the gasket peels off the thermostat hsg gasket and the water pump gasket. Not a big deal just collects in the water pump hsg cavity where it bleeds to atmosphere :wazzup:. And I decided to modify the oil pan w/ a magnet maybe two more in same area, back at the end of the oil pan near the trans, in hopes to catch more of the debris from a failed trans. Did not find any other issues that have not already mentioned. A thrust bearing worn somewhat on the corner. The Triple sprocket screw did not appear to be loose until I used my electric impact gun and it came loose without a grunt.(If u know what I mean). Since I have never had one of these this far apart, I also noticed the sprocket slides off the shaft hmmm. You would think a key way on the shaft there would be better. So I put loctite on the shaft and loctite the screw. My work area might look the best, but you can bet that engine is clean.:D
How old was your water pump cover gasket that it essentially melted/disintegrated? I ask as I just replace a 10 year old gasket on my bike and it was a bit bumpy from rust...but no mess like what you showed.

As for the engine...I would tear it completely down and get it hot tanked. Time to get the debris out of the equation.

Going forced induction? Now would be a good time to drop compression (i.e. lower compression pistons).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
How old was your water pump cover gasket that it essentially melted/disintegrated? I ask as I just replace a 10 year old gasket on my bike and it was a bit bumpy from rust...but no mess like what you showed.

As for the engine...I would tear it completely down and get it hot tanked. Time to get the debris out of the equation.

Going forced induction? Now would be a good time to drop compression (i.e. lower compression pistons).
2012 bike. The gasket did not disintegrate, the black coating just came off. Well its was torn all the way down as pics from the first post. I am going back together w/ it. I pressure washed with high heat more times than I can count and blow air through all oil passages. I'm sure that will do it THIS TIME lol. As for forced induction just gonna keep it stage one. I really dont want to do this again.Worn out between this and the same shi* at the job lol.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Is this plug better than the one thats in it. Because the drain plug has a magnet on it, its just not good enough.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
Is this plug better than the one thats in it. Because the drain plug has a magnet on it, its just not good enough.
Probably better but this isn't the cause of the rod bearings going out. Still, to me, seems a loss of oil pressure briefly at high rpms. Let's face it , you can't be viewing the gauge full time, so it might have been not seen in that second or two it took to happen. Rob. Which oil pump are you running, the 4 lobe or the 9? early pump? Is there any signs of minor pitting on the lobe tips?
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,484 Posts
i often see these vids of guys screwing the shit out of their engines doing burnouts.do they ever wonder what is happening inside the enging doing that?.max ,sustained revs for long periods can lead to sump running dry due to lack of oil ,cavitation being the result,rod bearing failure.that is why the 4 lobe pump was introduced .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
Running 4 lobe if I remember correctly. I found the pressure relief valve stuck, when I took apart the pump. Remember this is the pump I replaced the last time. Anyway I cleaned up the pressure relief bore so the relief valve slides in and out under its own weight. Pitting on lobes, well a little from when it passed some rod material. I used a magnifying glass to clean it up. As said before the pump itself is fine. I believe the pump relief valve stuck as the bearings started to fail. Because of the amount of damage to the pressure relief was mnimal. I could not get that relief valve out the bore witout considerable effort yet the bore was good. Could see see bits of copper in it though. Its good now. The only damage everyone is the engine bearings and some damage to cams and heads, which I also cleaned up and gonna run it. I KNOW IT NOT THE BEST WAY. I installed cams in head and checked the amount of clearance and compared to the other cams and it is spot on and they rotate very well. There was no other damage to other engine bearing surfaces.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #9
I dont do burouts, but I hit the rev at times. So I bought the bike in 2012 new. And now after all the years of racing crotch rockets on and off. Kinda like they wanna run me if they see me on expressway and I might oblidge them lol. At 86k this all of a sudden happens. Why not at 50k. 30 k etc. Rod bearings replaced 2yrs ago.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Yep, But the only issue is to prevent the oil pump from picking up debris and jamming the relief valve or worse damaging the oil pump. Which I believe is what happen in my case. But I will get the filter magnets also. So It appears we have a issue w/ trans and engine mixing huh go figure lol. Like most trans and gear cases, there is a magnet installed. Not a cure all, just some extra protection for engine mainly.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
Hello everyone
Well I started it up and it ran well(so far) lol. I ran it about 45min at different rpms. Oil pressure started out at about 50plus and at high coolant temp oil pressure about 20 to 25psi (95 deg day here in Texas).Sounds good, have not rode it yet. Now gonna remove oil pan and inspect oil p/u tube and the three magnets I put in the pan,yep u read right, I added two more to the pan. Removing oil pan just to see how clean or not clean I got it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
Hello everyone
Well I started it up and it ran well(so far) lol. I ran it about 45min at different rpms. Oil pressure started out at about 50plus and at high coolant temp oil pressure about 20 to 25psi (95 deg day here in Texas).Sounds good, have not rode it yet. Now gonna remove oil pan and inspect oil p/u tube and the three magnets I put in the pan,yep u read right, I added two more to the pan. Removing oil pan just to see how clean or not clean I got it.
Funny you mentioned oil pressures. I recently moved my gauge to a more easily viewed location so I can see it while riding better. My cold starts have always been 60 psi. Allowing the engine to warm up to 175-180 prior to riding and hitting the road, it's running 70 psi solid. Starting off at less warmup time, it can hit 75-80 psi for a brief period. I've only seen 80 psi once, however. After extended running to get the oil temp up it stays in the 60 psi range. Idle at that temp will be 30 psi. If allowed to get hotter oil temp wise as in multiple fan cycles the hot idle will the odd time drop to about 25 psi. Back when I had a working oil temp gauge, I ran several fan on and off cycles in the shop, where the oil temp got to 210. At that point, idle was 20 psi. My conclusion is, these are not a very close tolerance engines. The recommendation to run 20/50 oil, pretty much proves that. Tight engines with less leakage need lighter oil to lube well and a thicker oil can actually allow a bearing to overheat due to lack of oil flow across the bearing, rod and mains. The other side of the coin can be the lower output late model pumps won't keep up as well at idle with hot oil to sustain a higher idle pressure, not that that's an issue. Any psi above 70 starts turning into a negative effect. I sometimes question if using the early high output pump and 20/50 was a wise choice and the actual reason for the cavitation was the viscosity more then anything else. As for overall lubing, considering the trans, I do feel better with the thicker grade, so all is well as it is currently.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
Yep Ron I hear ya. Well I removed the pan and still found some small debris.It was on top of the baffle/ pan gasket. Its from the clutch I know. So I reinstalled the pan and run it again. And this time no debris at all. Kinda like I need a final flush. I will replace oil and filter after a few miles. 100 or so. My oil gages are in plain view I posted my set up under shitznit racing I believe. Anyway to some all this up. If u have one of these trans bearing failures and the oil pump survives. Flush oil cooler, and lines,replace bearings. Clean what u can.You can get away with not doing a complete engine tear down. If the oil pump does not survive. A complete tear down and flush is needed. The second bearing failure I had destroyed the pump. The first bearing failure I had did not hurt pump and that same trans bearing failed again 2yrs later. That destroyed the pump. I am gonna remove the pan yet again today after I ride it. I just ran it in the garage earlier and it was to late after all the pan crap. I think my bearing failed due to the oil pump relief sticking from debris. Not suppling enough oil under severe load. We will see.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
Yep Ron I hear ya. Well I removed the pan and still found some small debris.It was on top of the baffle/ pan gasket. Its from the clutch I know. So I reinstalled the pan and run it again. And this time no debris at all. Kinda like I need a final flush. I will replace oil and filter after a few miles. 100 or so. My oil gages are in plain view I posted my set up under shitznit racing I believe. Anyway to some all this up. If u have one of these trans bearing failures and the oil pump survives. Flush oil cooler, and lines,replace bearings. Clean what u can.You can get away with not doing a complete engine tear down. If the oil pump does not survive. A complete tear down and flush is needed. The second bearing failure I had destroyed the pump. The first bearing failure I had did not hurt pump and that same trans bearing failed again 2yrs later. That destroyed the pump. I am gonna remove the pan yet again today after I ride it. I just ran it in the garage earlier and it was to late after all the pan crap. I think my bearing failed due to the oil pump relief sticking from debris. Not suppling enough oil under severe load. We will see.
The relief can stick in a few positions. Closed or near closed or open. Closed, this will cause way higher then normal psi at rpms. If it sticks open from it's normal pop off point, roughly about 60-65 psi, idle pressure will be very low. Relief valves on oil pumps are generally always closed on hot oil idle since the pressure is always well below the pop off point of 60-65. Idle pressure is a result of pumps lower output due to lower rpm and the amount of pressure leakage in the engine. I seem to remember you saying you saw 100 psi when it stuck once. This will force the valve beyond normal setting and produce a much lower running pressure then it should normally. This might have been the culprit, where it failed to have normal psi of 60-65 at higher rpms when the valve was stuck from the 100 psi point. Purely speculation for the exact cause of rod bearing failure, since nobody views the gauge full time. There is little doubt the debri from the output trans bearing was the start of the failure . Pump and relief valve both see unfiltered oil so it all likely started there for the rod bearing failure. Still sucks. I can't imagine not using an oil pressure gauge and relying on that stupid idiot light that if it comes on above idle as in 4k, it's way too late to save the bearings at that point. Since you posted the first time, now look for any signs of above normal psi, indicating a problem in the relief valve of the pump and what could have caused it.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
I will Ron. And I rode it and oil pressure was at 75 on start up and it gradually went to 50 and the rest the same as u. Yep I dont know if I could ever ride this thing w/o a oil gage. I learn more about the gages responses everytime. Ron how did u plumb your gage from the case? There is a reason I am asking.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
I will Ron. And I rode it and oil pressure was at 75 on start up and it gradually went to 50 and the rest the same as u. Yep I dont know if I could ever ride this thing w/o a oil gage. I learn more about the gages responses everytime. Ron how did u plumb your gage from the case? There is a reason I am asking.
I made a fitting to go in place of the idiot sensor. A braided hose comes out part way up and the top retains the idiot light switch. Made a mount off the water pump bolts. I've seldom looked at it until your episode. Damn you, LOL. If you blow the pic up you will see the aluminum fitting between the cyls. It's the last area for the oil to go, as in the front head. Tapping the oil filter housing would work too but it's at the start of the oil although I don't think it matters much.
Ron
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Ok u see the fitting I have and u can also see where the oil galley is in the case next to my fitting that feeds the cams.The pipe is 1/4 in, so is the bushing in the case . The hole in case that feeds the cams is about the same size.Now the line for the actual oil pressure inside dia is a hell of a lot smaller. Like a 32nd dia maybe. So if u can imagine the oil has to travel up to the cams and fill the oil gage cavity at the same time. Possible timing of how fast the oil pressure is reached as it travels to the cams to build pressure. So I made a restrictor in the bushing in the case. So this will act like the light sensor. Which stops oil as it moves up ward. My restrictor I welded the end of the fitting and drilled a hole in the brass weld. Drill bit size same as them oil lines that come w/ oil gages. Result I notice the oil light goes out in a second for real. And I notice the gage seems to almost respond like the tach. So I dont know what your ID of your line is but its worth a look. Remember with the light sending unit the oil pressure stops there.And oil pressure travels to point of destination faster.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,730 Posts
Ok u see the fitting I have and u can also see where the oil galley is in the case next to my fitting that feeds the cams.The pipe is 1/4 in, so is the bushing in the case . The tube in case that feeds the cams is about the same size.Now the line for the actual oil pressure inside dia is a hell of a lot smaller. Like a 32nd dia maybe. So if u can imagine the oil has to travel up to the cams and fill the oil gage cavity at the same time. Possible timing of how fast the oil pressure is reached as it travels to the cams to build pressure. So I made a restrictor in the bushing in the case. So this will act like the light sensor. Which stops oil as it moves up ward. My restrictor I welded the end of the fitting and drilled a hole in the brass weld. Drill bit size same as them oil lines that come w/ oil gages. Result I notice the oil light goes out in a second for real. And I notice the gage seems to almost respond like the tach. So I dont know what your ID of your line is but its worth a look. Remember with the light sending unit the oil pressure stops there.And oil pressure travels to point of destination faster.
Oil pressure would need to be a result of a full system under pressure rather than one area before registering. What I'm trying to say is oil pressure in any area or galley would read the same and is independent of actual oil flow. My braided line is about 1/8 id and the gauge has a restrictor in it to stop pulsing. That's about the size of a pin head in the center of the male 1/8 pipe fitting connection of gauge. My light goes out and gauge jumps to life about he same time. Possibly the light a spit second before the needle moves on the gauge. It jumps instantly to 60 and a hair over at times with a cold start. It will climb between 65 -70 if you rev it up a bit with cold oil. I'm thinking that between seeing this and a hot oil psi of 60 ish, the relief valve in my bike is set to pop off extra pressure in the 60-65 range. I've seen 80 once which could be from a slightly sticky valve at that particular time but have not seen that since. 70psi going down the road before oil temp is up is common, so far and it drops to 60psi gradually as oil temp climbs up to normal.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
637 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
Ok just something to look at just in case no one thought of this. I definitely see a difference in my set up. I have electric gages. You have the real deal. But mines work well enough. Better than that light.
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Top