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Discussion Starter #1
Whos running with this kit right now? Any more mods? Put a picture of your bike, dyno and mods in this thread and maby we can help each other out on spare parts, more mods and finding more horsepower


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Discussion Starter #2
This is my bike
Like the stealth look but are now going for an muscle airbox for more cold air to the supercharger






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Discussion Starter #3
Some testing with a dump valve installed


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A couple of observations (I am knee deep in R&D with a new Rotrex based kit for these bikes so I speak from experience):

I would move that supercharger oil ("traction fluid" as Rotrex calls it) to on of the front frame rails. It's advised to always use an oil cooler in the oil circuit for that supercharger, however I believe if you can keep the fluid under 85 C you are "OK". Putting the reservoir under the airbox without direct airflow is doing nothing but increasing the oil temp (and taking precious room under your airbox for other things). I know why Carsten designed it this way (stealth), but in reality it's a poor location for that reservoir.

Catch can: Does the kit provide a source of vacuum for the catch can or is it a simple 2 port can that vents to air? If so, you can do much better going with a 3 port can and introducing a vacuum source (think coupler for supercharger air filter...excellent vac source).

Those clamps.....THOSE clamps......I don't recommend jubilee style for pipes that see boost. They fail (and they suck for clamping high pressure). Go take a google for t-bolt style hose clamps. Cheap and much more effective.

Boost control: Ditch the conical intake restrictor he included (besides being non adjustable that puts unnecessary stress on the impeller) and install one of these:

Intake temps: I believe Carsten included a different IAT sensor that screwed into the bottom of his plenum. If so, do you have logs of the temperatures seen when you see boost? I'm a huge believer that non-intercooled forced induction is a recipe for knock. I know the math shows that at around 6 psi you should be seeing 40-50 F increases above ambient. Add in a smaller plenum chamber and I worry about lack of expansion room for the air charge (read inability to dissipate heat). The goal should be an intake charge temp of 140 F or less (ideally as close to ambient...but without an intercooler that's a fantasy of course). I am working on resolving the intercooler dilemma in a way that no one has done yet (but should have).

Have you had issues with the crank adapter/flange for the big pulley? If I recall right, there is not a bearing in the stator cover for that flange/adapter, just a single double lip oil seal right? My concern is side loading, however if the shaft is short enough (which it appears to be) it apparently (the crank bearings) can handle it.....in other words, no oil leaks or issues right?
 

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Discussion Starter #5
A couple of observations (I am knee deep in R&D with a new Rotrex based kit for these bikes so I speak from experience):

I would move that supercharger oil ("traction fluid" as Rotrex calls it) to on of the front frame rails. It's advised to always use an oil cooler in the oil circuit for that supercharger, however I believe if you can keep the fluid under 85 C you are "OK". Putting the reservoir under the airbox without direct airflow is doing nothing but increasing the oil temp (and taking precious room under your airbox for other things). I know why Carsten designed it this way (stealth), but in reality it's a poor location for that reservoir.

Catch can: Does the kit provide a source of vacuum for the catch can or is it a simple 2 port can that vents to air? If so, you can do much better going with a 3 port can and introducing a vacuum source (think coupler for supercharger air filter...excellent vac source).

Those clamps.....THOSE clamps......I don't recommend jubilee style for pipes that see boost. They fail (and they suck for clamping high pressure). Go take a google for t-bolt style hose clamps. Cheap and much more effective.

Boost control: Ditch the conical intake restrictor he included (besides being non adjustable that puts unnecessary stress on the impeller) and install one of these:

Intake temps: I believe Carsten included a different IAT sensor that screwed into the bottom of his plenum. If so, do you have logs of the temperatures seen when you see boost? I'm a huge believer that non-intercooled forced induction is a recipe for knock. I know the math shows that at around 6 psi you should be seeing 40-50 F increases above ambient. Add in a smaller plenum chamber and I worry about lack of expansion room for the air charge (read inability to dissipate heat). The goal should be an intake charge temp of 140 F or less (ideally as close to ambient...but without an intercooler that's a fantasy of course). I am working on resolving the intercooler dilemma in a way that no one has done yet (but should have).

Have you had issues with the crank adapter/flange for the big pulley? If I recall right, there is not a bearing in the stator cover for that flange/adapter, just a single double lip oil seal right? My concern is side loading, however if the shaft is short enough (which it appears to be) it apparently (the crank bearings) can handle it.....in other words, no oil leaks or issues right?
Yes, heat is a problem with this kit.. i’m going to try an muscle airbox with open airflow to the intake at this point but an intercooler is more effecient.

Catch can is just 2ports vented to air.

Ordering new clamps

Boost control, i didn’t get any restrictor with this kit

Intake temps, had to look into that one going to download a fresh log from the DTT tomorrow.

Crank adapter, it’s just an oil seal and i mounted mine in wrong order so i scratched the oil seal and have a minor oil leak from start. Hope changing the seal would work.

Thank’s for your input going to keep an eye on your project sounds interesting


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Yes, heat is a problem with this kit.. i’m going to try an muscle airbox with open airflow to the intake at this point but an intercooler is more effecient.

Catch can is just 2ports vented to air.

Ordering new clamps

Boost control, i didn’t get any restrictor with this kit

Intake temps, had to look into that one going to download a fresh log from the DTT tomorrow.

Crank adapter, it’s just an oil seal and i mounted mine in wrong order so i scratched the oil seal and have a minor oil leak from start. Hope changing the seal would work.

Thank’s for your input going to keep an eye on your project sounds interesting


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Thanks for the responses (very few seem to want talk about this).

I will post prototype pictures of my intercooler solution within the next month hopefully (finalizing design before I have the CNC shop busy).

Catch can: Terrible. You should definitely convert to a 3 port setup as I described. Will increase ring sealing/decrease blowby immensely (and really easy to do!).

NO intake restrictor?? What levels of boost are you seeing? I know originally he restricted boost to around 6 psi, however if you are going unrestricted you probably are seeing 10-11 psi (which without an intercooler is insane...the amount of heat would be around 80 F above ambient on a good day....probably more like 100 F over ambient based on the size of that plenum). You have larger injectors, fuel pump, and a 5 bar regulator I hope! <--I am going to write an article on the fuel system for these bikes. I have a serious setup in terms of wiring upgrades that I did for my fuel pump (Walbro GSS342) and the Porsche 5 bar regulator that I found (no modifications/completely plug and play with OEM quality).

Oil seal: Yeah, the problem is the limited space + the fact that the pulley mounts to the face of that adapter results in no chamfer being possible on the end of that adapter (which is normally what you design on a shaft that is sealed by a traditional lip seal). It's why he recommends greasing the seal before assembly. I have the same dilemma in my design, however with copious amounts of grease and care it works. Not ideal....but we are dealing with a motorcycle (read: very limited real estate).

I will give Carsten this...he was very artistic in his design. I don't care as much about form over function, but I do think superchargers should be concealed on these bikes if for nothing else weight balance (and taking advantage of the fact we have a nice concealed space under the faux gas tank cover).

My biggest dilemma is the pulley setup. My design does NOT include a jack shaft going between the cylinders, but rather an alternate approach that I will show shortly. This coupled with the fact that Rotrex doesn't offer and counter clockwise rotating C15-60 made my job much harder (but not impossible as you will see).

I will say this, Rotrex is HARD to deal with. Probably a combination of time zones and language barrier, but they are basically the only game in town for such a compact and efficient blower. I wish they dealt with the smaller guys a bit more friendly. Innovation often comes from small shops (that COULD become big shops if you catch my drift).
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Thanks for the responses (very few seem to want talk about this).

I will post prototype pictures of my intercooler solution within the next month hopefully (finalizing design before I have the CNC shop busy).

Catch can: Terrible. You should definitely convert to a 3 port setup as I described. Will increase ring sealing/decrease blowby immensely (and really easy to do!).

NO intake restrictor?? What levels of boost are you seeing? I know originally he restricted boost to around 6 psi, however if you are going unrestricted you probably are seeing 10-11 psi (which without an intercooler is insane...the amount of heat would be around 80 F above ambient on a good day....probably more like 100 F over ambient based on the size of that plenum). You have larger injectors, fuel pump, and a 5 bar regulator I hope! completely plug and play with OEM quality).

Oil seal: Yeah, the problem is the limited space + the fact that the pulley mounts to the face of that adapter results in no chamfer being possible on the end of that adapter (which is normally what you design on a shaft that is sealed by a traditional lip seal). It's why he recommends greasing the seal before assembly. I have the same dilemma in my design, however with copious amounts of grease and care it works. Not ideal....but we are dealing with a motorcycle (read: very limited real estate).

I will give Carsten this...he was very artistic in his design. I don't care as much about form over function, but I do think superchargers should be concealed on these bikes if for nothing else weight balance (and taking advantage of the fact we have a nice concealed space under the faux gas tank cover).

My biggest dilemma is the pulley setup. My design does NOT include a jack shaft going between the cylinders, but rather an alternate approach that I will show shortly. This coupled with the fact that Rotrex doesn't offer and counter clockwise rotating C15-60 made my job much harder (but not impossible as you will see).

I will say this, Rotrex is HARD to deal with. Probably a combination of time zones and language barrier, but they are basically the only game in town for such a compact and efficient blower. I wish they dealt with the smaller guys a bit more friendly. Innovation often comes from small shops (that COULD become big shops if you catch my drift).
I haven’t messured my boost yet but i’t should be around 10psi.. i have bigger injectors and oem fuelregulator and fuelpump.

I’m going to take the bike to a dyno in August and we will messure the fuelpressure and boost then.
I have been thinking of changing to a bosh 5bar fuelregulator but maby i’t won’t matter without bigger fuelpump?

Yes this kit had a really nice design and the stealth look works great at the swedish inspection, they didn’t noticed the s/c so i got a blank papper
 

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I haven’t messured my boost yet but i’t should be around 10psi.. i have bigger injectors and oem fuelregulator and fuelpump.

I’m going to take the bike to a dyno in August and we will messure the fuelpressure and boost then.
I have been thinking of changing to a bosh 5bar fuelregulator but maby i’t won’t matter without bigger fuelpump?

Yes this kit had a really nice design and the stealth look works great at the swedish inspection, they didn’t noticed the s/c so i got a blank papper
You are guaranteed to be running lean (especially if you are around 10 psi). You want to be < 13:1 (ideally closer to 12:1 if running high octane gasoline) at that boost level. Couple of things to check besides pressure:

IDC (Injector Duty Cycle): You want that to be < 80% at WOT assuming your AFR is acceptable (see comment above). If you are lean and IDC is above that you are essentially running out of injector (in other words the injectors are basically running static and can't spray more fuel to achieve the AFR you want).

Fuel pump: There is debate over the true flow ratings of the OEM pump. Here is what I know. For $100 USD (or less depending on where you buy it) you can install the Walbro GSS342 and never have to worry about your fuel pump. NOTE: You MUST (some argue this, but the math concerning the tiny OEM wiring and type of wire says otherwise) upgrade not only the wire inside the tank to the pump but OUTSIDE the tank as well. Like I said earlier, I will put some pen to paper and write up how this is done with OEM style connectors and appropriate in tank fuel wiring (read: teflon coated milspec wire).

5 bar regulator: A must unless you are willing to change the fuel rail to an aftermarket one OR modify your OEM one such that you can run some of the very large Siemens Deka units. Me? I chose the infamous (infamous because they are hard as hell to find genuine units!) Magnetti Marelli IWP189 plug and play injectors (to my knowledge these are the best spray pattern and largest flowing injectors you can find for our oem fuel rail....). Couple that with the 5 bar Bosch regulator (and once again HARD to find genuine ones of these as I found many shops selling squished non 5-bar or worse China ripoff versions, and note: the REAL 5 bar Bosch regulators are NOT cheap. I have several in a box that I scored a bulk deal on) you should have more than enough fuel to handle 10-12 psi.

It's my firm belief that a lot of the "block shift" issues (with possibly exception to two members that are running > 2 BAR of boost on these bikes which is well beyond the intended design of the Revo engine/block) reported on this forum by the high horsepower bikes are a result of undetected knock (you can't hear the majority of knock events, especially on a motorcycle...and IF you can hear it, well that's typically so severe that you know what has already hit the fan). Several factors will induce knock of which going lean and/or excessive intake air temperatures (once again, high boost + no intercooler = knock city). Can I say this definitively in regards to Vrods? No. I can say this however in regards to gasoline 4 stroke engines and forced induction that these rules apply. Toss in the use of aftermarket ECUs that don't have a way of detecting knock (i.e. Daytona Twin Tec, Zipper's Thundermax) + all of the above and you are asking for two ashtrays.

Other things you should start looking into:

Throttle body shaft bearings and bushings. They have NO lip seals of any sort. Extremely cheap from a manufacturing standpoint. I have a throttle body that has been milled (think deeper shaft recesses) with tiny lip seals pressed to resolve the boost leaks that result from this (NOTE: You wind up having to replace the OEM bearings during this process for the throttle body shafts. The bearings are easy to find and are quite popular in SKATE BOARDS! Ha...not kidding).

Boost leaks around the intake boots right after the plenum stacks. From what I know about Carsten's kit he didn't really address this (correct me if I am wrong about this part). I have designed an integrated plenum bottom with conical/stack sections that sit in each bore of the throttle body coupled with an o-ring in each one. No more leaks. POSSIBLY leaks at the intake boot to head connection (not much you can do about that other than some decent sealant (Hylomar spray perhaps?), but so far I haven't seen that as a major leak area like the aforementioned other two.

So to recap:

Watch the IDCs vs AFR in logs.

Consider a larger fuel pump asap.

Install a method of controlling boost (the BLV device I mentioned is simple and effective).

Don't ignore wiring deficiencies.

Horsepower that is RELIABLE is expensive. You don't want to mess with counterfeit Chinese parts. I'm specifically referring to the fuel pump, regulator, even the injectors! It's insane what the Chinese will fake for a penny or two profit. It's also insane to risk an entire engine to save a few dollars on critical parts (not saying YOU are doing this, just a general warning for others who read this as I had a hell of a time finding real deal fuel components for this bike....ridiculous and expensive).

Boost leaks are a big problem with the oem parts. A bit of creativity and some machine work are needed.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
You are guaranteed to be running lean (especially if you are around 10 psi). You want to be < 13:1 (ideally closer to 12:1 if running high octane gasoline) at that boost level. Couple of things to check besides pressure:

IDC (Injector Duty Cycle): You want that to be < 80% at WOT assuming your AFR is acceptable (see comment above). If you are lean and IDC is above that you are essentially running out of injector (in other words the injectors are basically running static and can't spray more fuel to achieve the AFR you want).

Fuel pump: There is debate over the true flow ratings of the OEM pump. Here is what I know. For $100 USD (or less depending on where you buy it) you can install the Walbro GSS342 and never have to worry about your fuel pump. NOTE: You MUST (some argue this, but the math concerning the tiny OEM wiring and type of wire says otherwise) upgrade not only the wire inside the tank to the pump but OUTSIDE the tank as well. Like I said earlier, I will put some pen to paper and write up how this is done with OEM style connectors and appropriate in tank fuel wiring (read: teflon coated milspec wire).

5 bar regulator: A must unless you are willing to change the fuel rail to an aftermarket one OR modify your OEM one such that you can run some of the very large Siemens Deka units. Me? I chose the infamous (infamous because they are hard as hell to find genuine units!) Magnetti Marelli IWP189 plug and play injectors (to my knowledge these are the best spray pattern and largest flowing injectors you can find for our oem fuel rail....). Couple that with the 5 bar Bosch regulator (and once again HARD to find genuine ones of these as I found many shops selling squished non 5-bar or worse China ripoff versions, and note: the REAL 5 bar Bosch regulators are NOT cheap. I have several in a box that I scored a bulk deal on) you should have more than enough fuel to handle 10-12 psi.

It's my firm belief that a lot of the "block shift" issues (with possibly exception to two members that are running > 2 BAR of boost on these bikes which is well beyond the intended design of the Revo engine/block) reported on this forum by the high horsepower bikes are a result of undetected knock (you can't hear the majority of knock events, especially on a motorcycle...and IF you can hear it, well that's typically so severe that you know what has already hit the fan). Several factors will induce knock of which going lean and/or excessive intake air temperatures (once again, high boost + no intercooler = knock city). Can I say this definitively in regards to Vrods? No. I can say this however in regards to gasoline 4 stroke engines and forced induction that these rules apply. Toss in the use of aftermarket ECUs that don't have a way of detecting knock (i.e. Daytona Twin Tec, Zipper's Thundermax) + all of the above and you are asking for two ashtrays.

Other things you should start looking into:

Throttle body shaft bearings and bushings. They have NO lip seals of any sort. Extremely cheap from a manufacturing standpoint. I have a throttle body that has been milled (think deeper shaft recesses) with tiny lip seals pressed to resolve the boost leaks that result from this (NOTE: You wind up having to replace the OEM bearings during this process for the throttle body shafts. The bearings are easy to find and are quite popular in SKATE BOARDS! Ha...not kidding).

Boost leaks around the intake boots right after the plenum stacks. From what I know about Carsten's kit he didn't really address this (correct me if I am wrong about this part). I have designed an integrated plenum bottom with conical/stack sections that sit in each bore of the throttle body coupled with an o-ring in each one. No more leaks. POSSIBLY leaks at the intake boot to head connection (not much you can do about that other than some decent sealant (Hylomar spray perhaps?), but so far I haven't seen that as a major leak area like the aforementioned other two.

So to recap:

Watch the IDCs vs AFR in logs.

Consider a larger fuel pump asap.

Install a method of controlling boost (the BLV device I mentioned is simple and effective).

Don't ignore wiring deficiencies.

Horsepower that is RELIABLE is expensive. You don't want to mess with counterfeit Chinese parts. I'm specifically referring to the fuel pump, regulator, even the injectors! It's insane what the Chinese will fake for a penny or two profit. It's also insane to risk an entire engine to save a few dollars on critical parts (not saying YOU are doing this, just a general warning for others who read this as I had a hell of a time finding real deal fuel components for this bike....ridiculous and expensive).

Boost leaks are a big problem with the oem parts. A bit of creativity and some machine work are needed.

Hmm lambda at 1,32.. your right it’s running lean at high rpm. Got to look for a bigger pump and 5bar regulator do you know the differences between Walbro 341 and 342?


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Difference is filter/sock orientation I believe between the 341 and 342. The 342 (at least in the newer bikes) fits with a bit of dremel time on the stock mount setup, but other than that piece of cake.

THAT is lean! I'd pull a plug (or both) and check for some damage to the electrode. Not good. Check out your IDC values, I bet you are going static.
 

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Freddie knows what hes talkin about. I at least listen to him. He has helped me a couple times.
I'm running the TTS sc unit. Long story, but was told it was restricted to 6. NOT. On a couple of my tuning runs I saw I believe 12. That's BAD!!!!!!
Ended up installing the 928 boost limiter (had them remove the threads on the end and modify with a hose barb for 1"hose). But now, yes, it is 6 boost, reliably. (Sounds pretty cool when it goes off too)
Anyhow, my 2 cents. I'll go away now, as mine isnt a HM unit.......

John
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Freddie knows what hes talkin about. I at least listen to him. He has helped me a couple times.
I'm running the TTS sc unit. Long story, but was told it was restricted to 6. NOT. On a couple of my tuning runs I saw I believe 12. That's BAD!!!!!!
Ended up installing the 928 boost limiter (had them remove the threads on the end and modify with a hose barb for 1"hose). But now, yes, it is 6 boost, reliably. (Sounds pretty cool when it goes off too)
Anyhow, my 2 cents. I'll go away now, as mine isnt a HM unit.......

John
I’m going to order the blv hope they could make it with m22 threads thank you for your input still learning here so any s/c experience are welcome have you run any dyno with 6psi?


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Yeah, email them. They were VERY helpful with me. Slight upcharge, but worth it.
No, no dyno available. That is one of my limiting factors. My tuning must be done the street tune way. I went with the PCVPTI and autotune with WB sensors. Now, after having done it, for me, that is the way to go!!!!!!! I retain the stock ECM (retain knock detect, as freuedie pointed out the importance and retain stock reliability) and the tuning is basically (once setup properly - yeah there's a story there) plug and play. Really, the tuning has been a non-issue.
This thing is a rocket ship. Now, the issue is throttle management and traction. 1st, 2nd, and some of 3rd, one must be paying pretty close attention. The rear breaks loose VERY easily.
John
 

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Discussion Starter #14

Going to change the original sparkplugs to DCPR9E.. Trask recommends 0.34gap and i saw some recomendations that you should have 0.28-0.30


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Going to change the original sparkplugs to DCPR9E.. Trask recommends 0.34gap and i saw some recomendations that you should have 0.28-0.30


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I recommend stock plugs (get them from the dealer as HD has an agreement with Champion (I think that was who I found out was the producer). They are a big $4.00-ish a piece. They also are what the ion-sensing knock detection system was based on. Changing plug types, ranges, etc introduces more variables. As for plug gap, that sounds about the same as what the shop manual calls for (I just put new plugs in a few weeks ago, but I know I used the stock gap setting with no issues).
 

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I recommend stock plugs (get them from the dealer as HD has an agreement with Champion (I think that was who I found out was the producer). They are a big $4.00-ish a piece. They also are what the ion-sensing knock detection system was based on. Changing plug types, ranges, etc introduces more variables. As for plug gap, that sounds about the same as what the shop manual calls for (I just put new plugs in a few weeks ago, but I know I used the stock gap setting with no issues).
I’ts a slightly colder spark plug, NGK dcpr8e matches the original ones from HD. I have experienced some lost fires with the original gap.. maby because i run 10psi read somewhere that boosted engines needs smaller gap.

I’t was really hard to find a bosh 5bar fpr nearby what else could i look for? Porsce, audi? What will fit?

ordered the walbro pump that should be delivered in a few days..


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Discussion Starter #17

Found this one but not sure i’t will fit?


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I believe that style / size is pretty much universal. That cost seems REALLY high. I enclosed a photo of the one I'm not using, if interested.
20200712_135515.jpg
20200712_135510.jpg
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I believe that style / size is pretty much universal. That cost seems REALLY high. I enclosed a photo of the one I'm not using, if interested. View attachment 604924 View attachment 604925
Yes they are expensive original bosch motorsport.. i know theres a lot of copies for less money and they probobly works as well.
But my real issue is that i need it fast and i live in Sweden i need to find one nearby


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