Harley Davidson V-Rod Forum banner
1 - 15 of 15 Posts

·
Pat's Fan
Joined
·
363 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive been reading the tuner manual and installing calibration files on to the tuner program just to see where the differences are but while I look around the tuner program I do not see anywhere you can set preferences for running topless. I understand that when you load a program and the click on "program ECM" that it promps you a question if you have the 28T. Does it also prompt you a question at that time if you are running topless??

Or is it the assumption of the calibration files that you are running topless??
 

·
SNAFU
Joined
·
13,094 Posts
There isn't any overt indication for topless other than the initial product listing on the HD website that referenced the newest calibrations (the ones included in the RT V3.50) being designed to run topless. The latest map info from Harley says these maps are good with or without the top on.

You can check on the Edit -> Info (I think) section to see what notes are attached to each file. (sorry, but I re-installed my PC tonight and haven't gotten the RT reloaded)
 

·
Pat's Fan
Joined
·
363 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Mark,
Gotta thank you........you are a wealth of knowledge. Ive gone back and read numerous posts about the RT. Once i installed it on my computer and went back and re-read some posts it was much easier to fiddle around with the RT tuning part of the software.
I really think printing those tables and compairing those to other tablest from the other files will help even more to understand what is happing. as well as taking the info from the data mode and applying it to the baseline and making changes accordingly.
I still have lots and lots to learn and im sure there will be some more questions as well.

I am thinking of installing the original harley file and doing some seat of the pants feel then (because we share the same setup) i was thinking of trying your latest file and compairing. I know each bike is differnt but i think it will help me understand and learn the tuner some more.

Thanks agian.
 

·
SNAFU
Joined
·
13,094 Posts
CW,

You've just started to cross over into the dark side :diablo: You'll find it hard to resist making a tweak here and a tweak there ;)

As for variations I think you'll find that the V-Rods are very close across the board. One tuner even commented that he's seen less than a 1% variation on over 20 V-Rods he's dynoed :)
 

·
Twisted!!!!!!!
Joined
·
1,471 Posts
CW
Do you own a copy of MS Excel?
If you do and want to understand some of the diffs you can compare the LS and the GY maps. 16ga vs SE slipons. Exercise will help. Just copy and paste the data for VE whatever cylinder as long as you compare LSfront vs GYfront and so on. Substract them tables on the new one. You'll see where one exhaust would be leaner or richer at different throttle openings than the other. The AFR's are the same so don't bother. The diffs on the VE's are somewhat troubling when you consider the exhaust "purposes". The SE's map is too RICH for the 16ga from 4500 or 5500 depending on the cylinder up to 11000 rpm. WTH????? If supposed to make more power = more exhaust flow, how come? Shouldn't it be tuned richer at the same throttle opening? I have the LS map installed because I "assumed" there was more flow with the 16ga but am getting front cylinder knock retard with the unmodded map. I need time to try the GY stock and MJ's GY, datalog and draw some conclusions if possible.

Mark, Max, any comment on these differences? This is voodoo science for me!

Hey! Aren't we supposed to be the Jedi appretice type :angelwin: . Mark, are you Sith :diablo: ?
CW, use the force, do not allow yourself to be seduced by the dark side, it's very cool! ;)
 

Attachments

·
Color me Gone
Joined
·
27,333 Posts
eduarprmd I'm not sure that the 16ga require more fuel, I have them on Jeannie's and the slip on's on my bike. While the 16ga have more sound, seat of the pants tells me the slipons have more torque and power. I did find that with Marks map that I would pickup a stumble when cold (below 40f) at about the 1 minute running mark but it would only occur once or twice during throttle up. So that must be a condition he does not see there in Florida. So what I did was start with the stock slip on Map and have been adding a little mid range fuel first to get the feel of how this thing reacts. I am leaving the timeing alone until we see a little more heat for fear of detenation when it gets warmer.

Marks map does really help the mid range so I will open them in excel and do some comparison to see what he has done with the midrange to make it feel so strong.

Max
 

·
Twisted!!!!!!!
Joined
·
1,471 Posts
When you say slipons you mean the SE ones that look same as stock, right? Pardon the ignorance. It seems like the 16ga map takes away where it should give you some power instead and if you're saying the SE's feel better seat of the pants that will maybe explain it. Not everything a manufacturer says is always real. Are the 16ga supposed to provide better perf in real life (as in contrary to HD's tale)? Keep in mind I don't really want an exhaust war with this. Mainly really an EFI related question because I don't get it. How come you take away fuel when it wasn't rich and it should make more power with a supposedly freer flowing exhaust? There may be knowledge here I don't get but NEED to know.
 

·
Color me Gone
Joined
·
27,333 Posts
eduarprmd correct that I mean the SE when I say slipons. Free flowing exhaust does not always equal better performance. The simplest way to put it is to start with the basics. Many think an exhaust is a constant motion of air however simply holding your hand behind it will tell you it is pulses of air that are not smooth at all. A very good exaust will take advantage of the pulses with a crossover pipe or connection between pipes that actually give the exhaust a scavage effect that helps to draw the exhaust out of the cylinder when the valve opens. A very free flowing exhuast can in effect kill this scavage effect that takes place as I believe the 16ga pipes do.

Yes seat of the pants tells me that the 16ga is for sound and not performance, but as I say I have not had the 16 ga on a dyno and my SE's only dynoed at 110 early on but I have not had it back on a dyno for a while and have made several small changes and now playing with the RT. Before I hit the dyno I don't think I will see a big increase in HP but I do think I have improved torque and now midrange.

Max
 

·
SNAFU
Joined
·
13,094 Posts
Max,

My SE's are v-modded, if yours aren't then that might explain the stumble. BTW, when I rode once with the temps below 60f I felt a slight roll-on stumble @ ~4000 rpm but it cleared as soon as the motor warmed up, that was with the first map I posted which had more fuel in the lower midrange than my latest map. I haven't had the opportunity to ride in the colder weather so I can't recreate the problem ;) I do know that my map is borderline rich (from optimal) in the midrange so when you add the cold and the acceleration enrichment a lot of fuel gets dumped into the motor.

If you're adding fuel in increments I would use the VE tables rather than the AFR table, that's what I wanted to do but I need to find the correct dyno / operator so I have the time to compare. What I want to do is create a modified VE map that I think aproximates what I've done with the AFR table, run both maps on a good dyno with a gas analyzer and see the relative effects of VE changes to AFR. My assumption is the AFR table as published is what HD thinks is the best combination power / economy targets for our motor. I'd like to modify the VE tables so I can achieve those targets.

Eduardo,

When you compare the VE tables for the two pipes you see that it shows a different power curve for the 16ga, not necessarily more or less power, just power in different areas.
 

·
Pat's Fan
Joined
·
363 Posts
Discussion Starter · #13 ·
mjw930 said:
Max,

I haven't had the opportunity to ride in the colder weather so I can't recreate the problem ;) .

Well, its about 35 degrees here! But, im not a willing victim to go out looking for the stumble ;) (snow/rain in forcast tomorrow)

And it looks like its supposed to warm up for the weekend......50's, BUT...Im leaving for FL on friday afternoon so things will have to wait till i get home :D
 

·
Twisted!!!!!!!
Joined
·
1,471 Posts
Been out. Found out I need 60 CME credits for licensing renewal AND some primary care conference ($#&%) I F'g hate. Easy enough but lots of reading and PowerPoint.

I would expect different flow properties with diff exhausts and figured maybe the differences are done so as to "build" a smooth power curve for both exhausts. From whatever little read on the subject of HD exhaust I see no significant diff in performance with the modded SE's vs the modded stocks or the 16ga. Is there really a diff? I do know that if you put ST's there are measurable differences with significantly higher numbers. AND all this has a point, I still think maybe the differences between front and rear VE's have some to do with exhaust length. Not just temps. Has anyone substracted one table from other, one cyl minus other with same map, then with diff map in MS Excel? Try to make some sense. I'll be honest (always), I agree with Kaz, my tuner cannot tune. I don't have the time even if I try and this is fascinating stuff to me and maybe I'm one crazy MF (not mine of course) for finding this interesting. I guess I'm waiting for Paul to have a map for the JM to see what happens and I hate it when I cannot do it myself but that is how it goes for now.

I just see some diffs in between maps and think HD claims are unfounded if no significant power gains. If you sum all numbers in each there is not much diff between them but I realise this is dynamics.

I could post my excel file, it has 15 worksheets and is 130kb for now if anyone wants to save some time. It just compares what HD does with the diff standard maps. The diffs MJ did in his are easily noted within the RT software. Nothing very radical. On the HD stuff not much diff in between VE values from one map to the other but within the same map the cylinder diffs can be huge. Why? Could it be exhaust length? This amateur analysis at best, I realise that.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
191 Posts
I agree, I have a friend with Rienharts and I have the SE Slip Ons. He uses the 16 Ga profile, and mine is the RT profile. Both have the 28 thooth mod. There is so much difference you can feel as soon as you ride both. I did the mods to both bike so I could test for myself. The Rienharts do not have as much thottle responce. A little resistance is good. I am interested in Maxes profile that is tweeked. Mine is not topless. K&N Filter with SE SLip Ons. They are stock not vmods. Let me know if you have a different profile to try. I am also in texas and I do get the same cold reaction as you when first riding for the first minute. Goes away when bike warms up.

Mike

Max said:
eduarprmd correct that I mean the SE when I say slipons. Free flowing exhaust does not always equal better performance. The simplest way to put it is to start with the basics. Many think an exhaust is a constant motion of air however simply holding your hand behind it will tell you it is pulses of air that are not smooth at all. A very good exaust will take advantage of the pulses with a crossover pipe or connection between pipes that actually give the exhaust a scavage effect that helps to draw the exhaust out of the cylinder when the valve opens. A very free flowing exhuast can in effect kill this scavage effect that takes place as I believe the 16ga pipes do.

Yes seat of the pants tells me that the 16ga is for sound and not performance, but as I say I have not had the 16 ga on a dyno and my SE's only dynoed at 110 early on but I have not had it back on a dyno for a while and have made several small changes and now playing with the RT. Before I hit the dyno I don't think I will see a big increase in HP but I do think I have improved torque and now midrange.

Max
 
1 - 15 of 15 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top