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Twisted!!!!!!!
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm going to try your map on my bike after comparing edits, see what happens, an "uncontrolled" situation but I do not have much time to dyno after I'm done riding. I may dyno this weekend. You did not lean it anywhere so there should be no problem. Do you think the RT dyno simulator would be sensitive enough to notice any diffs?
 

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SNAFU
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No, I didn't lean anything out, I only added fuel. I suspect the dyno simulator could sense the difference but unless the tests are done under the exact same conditions the results would be suspect.
 

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backcracker
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Is dynoing really necessary with the RT? Or can you make it work with everyday runs? Will the tuner have to be hooked up to figure things out? I just don't know if I have the time to do it but don't want to run it lean or screw anything up. I'm a little confused with what to do right now. I'm not horribly worried about getting every pony out of it, just want it to run right and enjoy riding it. Any help you guys could give me would be great.
 

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Your combo if I remeber is not that radical.Put the Base map that comes with it as a starting point and you 95% there! ;)
 

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backcracker
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Super Kaz said:
Your combo if I remeber is not that radical.Put the Base map that comes with it as a starting point and you 95% there! ;)
Thanks Kaz. Ok, anyone know the exact requirements for the RT as far as computer software? I put it on the wife's Dell inspiron and it almost sh!t the bed. That did not go over very well. :spank: The inspiron is pretty new and it is running XP. It loaded just fine and I was able to look at everything but it did not like it at all. Any ideas??
 

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SNAFU
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Dan,

The software doesn't need anything special. I've installed it on 3 systems ranging from 400 mhz PII to a 850 mhz AMD. All running XP Pro. Never had a problem.

Here's the requirements:

Equipment Needed
Windows® compatible computer, preferably a rugged laptop design with:
_ Serial or USB port
_ CD-ROM drive
_ Windows™ 95/98/2000/ME or NT 4.0 operating system
_ 32Mg of Ram (Minimum)
_ 10-Mg of available Hard Drive space

There's something else going on with your wife's computer. Sorry
 

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Color me Gone
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Dan I have loaded the software on a couple of machines and had no problem, what exactly did it do? Run slow, blue screen etc. XP likes to use automatic port assignment and it may be a port issue that you may be able to change in the configuration.
 

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backcracker
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Thanks guys, it just froze repeatedly and then would shut itself down. Then come up with a bunch of goofy windows that neither of us have ever seen before. She was not happy with me, I can't blame her, 3 years of her dissertation is on that computer. Thanks god she started backing up after it died a year and a half ago. I am gonna get it looked at this week. What fun is having the RT if I can't walk into the garage and hook up the laptop!!
 

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Sounds Like she might have one of those New Virues that are Out! :hmm: My computer was doing the same kinda stuff"frezzing up,shutting down,ect."I had one and once I got it cleared up all has been fine! :kaz:
 

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Twisted!!!!!!!
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Name is RT map files so here it goes.

I had three laptops, one at work, one here as a desktop replacement for the home, and the very old toshiba Sattelite which is just Pentium period, has 40meg RAM cannot remember the megahertz but subGiga. Worked just fine on this puny computer with Win95 until some battery issues got it to the trashcan. Working very well with XP.
PS Funny how this crappy computer was about 1000 bucks more expensive than this Porsche for a computer I'm using now. Run Norton or whatever antiviral you use. Kaz may be right. AND if so you may end up guilt free :kiss: .

Mark
I did some runs yesterday to datalog and have found a good place to do some good 2nd gear passes. Do you think maybe doing it in third gear at 15fps on dyno data mode would be better since it would take longer to get to redline thus gathering more data in time on same rpm range so as to enhance reproducibility of results and for the same reasons data reliability? Maybe it wouldn't matter. Doing good 4th gear runs would require the highway and me in it in 4th at 2000rpm steady to then mash it to redline :lick: . Two thousand rpm in fourth may be too slow and dangerous for highway traffic (I of course mean closed course track, but you knew that).

How would you describe the differences between the LS map I have flashed and the GY map you're using. Aren't AFR's same? VE's are different. Did you choose it based on the slipon you have being modded? If you had modded 16ga, would you have chosen the LS map? Or did you choose based on the actual number jumble on the tables? I'm finding it difficult to understand the differences but the more I look at them they start making some sense using the little theory I gather from here and the manual.

Pretty cool complex question, huh? (if numbers based)
 

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SNAFU
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eduarprmd said:
Mark
I did some runs yesterday to datalog and have found a good place to do some good 2nd gear passes. Do you think maybe doing it in third gear at 15fps on dyno data mode would be better since it would take longer to get to redline thus gathering more data in time on same rpm range so as to enhance reproducibility of results and for the same reasons data reliability? Maybe it wouldn't matter. Doing good 4th gear runs would require the highway and me in it in 4th at 2000rpm steady to then mash it to redline :lick: . Two thousand rpm in fourth may be too slow and dangerous for highway traffic (I of course mean closed course track, but you knew that).

How would you describe the differences between the LS map I have flashed and the GY map you're using. Aren't AFR's same? VE's are different. Did you choose it based on the slipon you have being modded? If you had modded 16ga, would you have chosen the LS map? Or did you choose based on the actual number jumble on the tables? I'm finding it difficult to understand the differences but the more I look at them they start making some sense using the little theory I gather from here and the manual.

Pretty cool complex question, huh? (if numbers based)
Third gear would be better to get more sample points but you need to make sure you have the room to make the pass.

The difference in the maps is VE settings, like you said. I used the GY maps because they were a closer approximation to the configuration I have. All i modified are the AFR settings because to properly do the VE tables I would need more passes on the dyno and NONE of the dyno operators I have worked with have shown ANY interest in either helping me or waiting for me to analyze the results and make the changes. I'm tired of hearing "it's so much easier with the PC" or "What's a VE table?" :chair:

If I had the 16ga pipes I would have started with that base setting. In looking at the numbers it's easy to see where the 2 pipes flow differently (don't remember off hand the specifics). Since the modifications I have done shouldn't change this too much it didn't make sense to go with a base map that was way off from factory SE.

Mark
 

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Twisted!!!!!!!
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Been out the VRF for a while, not that I wanted to but it's been crazy here.

DISCLAIMER: I'm just a frikin Doc with no motorcycle tune experience, I tune something else. I'm on this EFI thing for like two or three months in all reality and dedicated time to it for like three or four weeks I guess. I have the right to post dumb hypotheses or questions. I believe more people need to do same.

Not able to ride much either but did make some runs and datalogged. Have some knock retard detected just on the front cylinder. I need to add more gas. To do it on just that cylinder I would need to modify the VE table for that cylinder. Like Kaz has found out I think the main advantage of the RT over the PC is that you can individually tune each cylinder and significant power advantages can be realised with it. My "tuner problem" is same as you I guess. Most with a dyno knows the PC but when it comes to "being smart" with tuning they fall very short on the neuron count. Turning knobs and seeing a graph go higher is a piece of cake, give'em numbers and reason (or ask them to chew and walk at the same time) and they loose balance, get dizzy. It's just true, I'm not sorry!

Problem is to know how lean or rich is too much or too little you'd need an analyser and with a 2-1 pipe this gets complex I guess since not measuring each individual cylinder to do individual cylinder tuning. Besides the different physical variables for each cylinder I can only find the obvious differences in the VE tables to possibly be related to the also obviously different exhaust length and probably the VE tables would be much more similar if the V-Rod came with equal length exhaust from the factory. Uff! Whew! Not really. That's not so difficult a hypothesis. Maybe the new Milwakee racer engineer here could help without giving away any "secrets". This kind of engineering is no secret, been going on with cars for years, just some logic.

What else makes for the differences besides one cylinder being hotter? Aren't the cylinders bilaterally symmetric? Seems to me it should be something more "dynamic" than just a table so since these are "fixed", how come it works so well at different temps? It has to be kind of a "forgiving" system (as in accomodating for these), doesn't it? I really really do not think changing the VE table values would be much different than changing the AFR table, wouldn't you think it just smarter? The VE tables are just kind of AFR tables for each individual cylinder indirectly just telling the ECM there is more air getting in on that paricular RPM and throttle position so that if you input a higher number it "thinks" more air is getting in so as to change the injector pulse width timing or whatever. If you datalog the thing on the dyno you can do just that because it tells you data from the TPS exactly and with the AFR graph you would know the RPM you need to tune for, tune then test then retune.

I know what lambda is in several diferent contexts. Same for probe :rofl2: . What is a lambda probe?

Mark. I've tried to discuss this with some "tuners" but THEIR knock sensor activates (these guys I've been to have only one cylinder, sensor remark is for fun, they're carbureted) and it causes the pain center of the brain to activate thus causing confusion and this in turn activates the liar nucleus and the "yes bring it here" cortical portion which in turn activate cranial nerve VII causing facial disfigurement. This chain of events activates MY "this guy is full of shit" and deception detectors causing me to leave at once or just have'em make 40 bucks to run it on their dyno untouched for my dyno numbers mean shit series. The search continues but this is just paret of the fun.
 

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SNAFU
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eduarprmd said:
Mark. I've tried to discuss this with some "tuners" but THEIR knock sensor activates (these guys I've been to have only one cylinder, sensor remark is for fun, they're carbureted) and it causes the pain center of the brain to activate thus causing confusion and this in turn activates the liar nucleus and the "yes bring it here" cortical portion which in turn activate cranial nerve VII causing facial disfigurement. This chain of events activates MY "this guy is full of shit" and deception detectors causing me to leave at once or just have'em make 40 bucks to run it on their dyno untouched for my dyno numbers mean shit series. The search continues but this is just paret of the fun.
:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

That sounds like the medical equivilent to "How EFI systems work". Now, if we just had a race tuner that we could use to set the receptor threshold for the pain center of the brain we might be able to create the perfect tuner :deal: :deal: :deal:

Thanks for the post, I can see you're having as much fun with this as I am :thumb:
 

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Heres a Speed"HP Maker" secret Eddie thats free ,but comes with a warning!Doing this will make you more power but could cause CATASTRAPHIC ENGINE DAMAGE! :hitfan: The Secret is"Turn OFF Your Knock Sensor!" :kaz:
 

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Twisted!!!!!!!
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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Mark, thanks for the FIM link. Interesting. If not for fun, what else is there? I'll keep going everywhere making waves of fun to surf on. I think we could accomplish our goals with the tuner with just meds, I can increase the pain threshold easily and do testing on a daily basis. Beer seems to be working and it's cheap, also I don't need my DEA number for that one. I just want to learn a lot then try doing it myself with what it has right now as I don't think I'll change much on the bike as it is now (later a BB, turbo maybe but ugly, I don't know). I have to be careful not to do it too quick or the fun will end too soon for this setup.

Kaz, I've seen the CATASTROPHIC part with turbo cars several times before because of turning of the sensors. Not preventing a very lean condition can become UGLY! That is why on a previous post I asked about going lean then rich and vice versa to which Jan replied thinking on the catastrophe. But that is why the RT is so great.
 

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backcracker
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Hey guys, I have the RT as I said a few posts ago. I am going topless with the TT 28t pulley, SE air filter and a set of Samson Ripsaws. Not a crazy setup but I am being told by my shop guy (who doesn't like the tuner) and his mechanic that works at a Harley shop that they need to make a custom map for the bike. Thus having to dyno it and maybe need it for a couple days. You guys have any ideas or a good map to use? Or should I just suck it up and give it to them and spend the extra cash. Becoming frustrated.
 

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SNAFU
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Dan,

You were doing good until you got to the ripsaws. There's nothing even close to that in the RT base files and there's not enough people out there using the tool yet to have any other maps for your setup. The map for the 16ga is probably the closest but you're going to have to get a custom map done and that will involve quite a bit of dyno time. If your shop guy doesn't like the RT then find someone who does. The last thing you need is someone working on your bike that's pissed at your choice of tools.

Sorry :(
 

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Mark
Where did you put your IAT sensor after removing the top?
 

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backcracker
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mjw930 said:
Dan,

You were doing good until you got to the ripsaws. There's nothing even close to that in the RT base files and there's not enough people out there using the tool yet to have any other maps for your setup. The map for the 16ga is probably the closest but you're going to have to get a custom map done and that will involve quite a bit of dyno time. If your shop guy doesn't like the RT then find someone who does. The last thing you need is someone working on your bike that's pissed at your choice of tools.

Sorry :(
Thanks Mark, I appreciate the help even if it isn't what I wanted to hear. :chair: :chair: I will keep you guys posted!!
 
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