Race Tuner Map Files (discussion)
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Can it compensate for the 29 tooth ? I love that size.
Can it take into consideration the difference in tire hieght between the Dunlop and the Metzeler 200 ?
Can I buy a RaceTuner and download one of the Forum members maps without H-D setting it up for me?
I have got some of the most inept tech's in North America all pooled up in central WI. I would not trust them to properly program a new tv.
Thanks,BobT
Can it take into consideration the difference in tire hieght between the Dunlop and the Metzeler 200 ?
Can I buy a RaceTuner and download one of the Forum members maps without H-D setting it up for me?
I have got some of the most inept tech's in North America all pooled up in central WI. I would not trust them to properly program a new tv.
Thanks,BobT
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Bob,
No, it doesn't give you a correction factor, just 30T or 28T and the standard tire size. For your situation an external correction device like ChopperSteve sells is your only alternative (at this time
)
Yes, you can buy the RT and load my map without additional tuning but all the common disclaimers exist. I'd rather have people see them as good starting points for their own custom tunes (that I hope they post as well). You can think of them exactly like you use published PCIII maps.
No, it doesn't give you a correction factor, just 30T or 28T and the standard tire size. For your situation an external correction device like ChopperSteve sells is your only alternative (at this time
)Yes, you can buy the RT and load my map without additional tuning but all the common disclaimers exist. I'd rather have people see them as good starting points for their own custom tunes (that I hope they post as well). You can think of them exactly like you use published PCIII maps.
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Mark I see you went from about 111 to 116. Just tuning or do you think switching dynos was the diff? Better dyno for tuning, I mean. As you know I have the 105gy001 file for the 16Ga and will try the 105sl001 on the street. Will I notice anything with datalogging on the street that could lead me to believe one is a better baseline than the other? I see you added fuel to your custom map to the midrange, I have it downloaded and printed the graphs and tables with comparisons for study. See f I can learn something. I'm reding the RT manual again, it seems so repetitive that after reading it once I could review it in a night or two.
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The change in dyno seemed to take me from 111 to 113. The last 3 HP came from leaning the top end out a tad. It's best to use the same dyno time after time but I'm still looking for a shop that I like. To do this right I'm going to need a whole day to make about 20 passes at different throttle positions.
I don't really care about the absolute peak HP numbers as much as smooth, maximum power from 3000 - 7000 (where I ride 95% of the time). If you look at the first dyno that's exactly what we accomplished. What I did on the second was tune the top end. The resulting custom map is a blend of the two. After riding about 600 miles on the new map I've found some areas that I think need some work so I know where to focus the majority of the next dyno session.
BTW, Did you have the IAT unplugged when you were on the dyno? That may be why the other file didn't work. Either way, they are just baselines.
I don't really care about the absolute peak HP numbers as much as smooth, maximum power from 3000 - 7000 (where I ride 95% of the time). If you look at the first dyno that's exactly what we accomplished. What I did on the second was tune the top end. The resulting custom map is a blend of the two. After riding about 600 miles on the new map I've found some areas that I think need some work so I know where to focus the majority of the next dyno session.
BTW, Did you have the IAT unplugged when you were on the dyno? That may be why the other file didn't work. Either way, they are just baselines.
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Is there such a thing as tuning school? Cause this is interesting.
You are one smart honest guy.
Assuming it's the same system. I keep thinking, if you get the area under the curve in between whatever rpm range larger in value you should be faster in that range regardless of higher peak hp produced by another map because you'll be pulling there harder most of the time (averaged), right? Whew! AND while trying to do this you may end up with a smoother curve by default.
If the above holds true I would agree that peak hp numbers while entertaining wil not necesarilly make you faster. If the graph shows significant dips you may be slower with a higher peak hp value. Feel free to :slap2: me cause be certain of this, I know nothing, there may be other variables involved. I know physics to some extent, excellent grades but long ago. I am just extrapolating from what I do today.
Thing is you probably cannot manipulate the curves basic shape by much. Or can you? To be truthful what interests me the most about the RT is this kind of thing. You can experiment, and learn.
Yes the IAT was plugged in but the top was on during the pulls(dyno sheets are with IAT connected), he insisted we start that way so fine. I really wanted the guy to be responsible for downloading the file in the first place with me observing. It had taken too long already and I was itching to ride the thing so I asked for some AFR's, said it was in no danger so I told him to stop. Really no trust yet, much hesitation with the tune and he gave me the face when he noted I will not stand there and have him tell me it is tuned with the download. Kind of a WHAT? No trust? WHAT was exactly what he got back. Thought we were clear when I told him my stealer story. We are going to tune the damn thing if it is the last thing I do, I told him over a beer. He laughed, said it was a business, that he needs to move everything along and that he could schedule a sunday to tune my bike alone. We drank 20 more, nearly cost me a divorce at 2:30am but will do (tune that is).
I just took the top off afterwards and drunk and all pressed so hard it didn't even click. It was just laying there besides the filter yesterday. That is why I went POP in my brain when I read what Karl and Max had posted. The light never turned off after the start, it never blinked and it did not take the ten starts Karl mentioned to figure it out.
Who's sensei here with the RT thing? I'm aiming for yellow belt just like in the other thing. I don't watch Seinfeld reruns anymore, I have just the itch to understand. I'm a geek, teach me please. I read the manual already.:rofl3:
You are one smart honest guy.
Assuming it's the same system. I keep thinking, if you get the area under the curve in between whatever rpm range larger in value you should be faster in that range regardless of higher peak hp produced by another map because you'll be pulling there harder most of the time (averaged), right? Whew! AND while trying to do this you may end up with a smoother curve by default.
If the above holds true I would agree that peak hp numbers while entertaining wil not necesarilly make you faster. If the graph shows significant dips you may be slower with a higher peak hp value. Feel free to :slap2: me cause be certain of this, I know nothing, there may be other variables involved. I know physics to some extent, excellent grades but long ago. I am just extrapolating from what I do today.
Thing is you probably cannot manipulate the curves basic shape by much. Or can you? To be truthful what interests me the most about the RT is this kind of thing. You can experiment, and learn.
Yes the IAT was plugged in but the top was on during the pulls(dyno sheets are with IAT connected), he insisted we start that way so fine. I really wanted the guy to be responsible for downloading the file in the first place with me observing. It had taken too long already and I was itching to ride the thing so I asked for some AFR's, said it was in no danger so I told him to stop. Really no trust yet, much hesitation with the tune and he gave me the face when he noted I will not stand there and have him tell me it is tuned with the download. Kind of a WHAT? No trust? WHAT was exactly what he got back. Thought we were clear when I told him my stealer story. We are going to tune the damn thing if it is the last thing I do, I told him over a beer. He laughed, said it was a business, that he needs to move everything along and that he could schedule a sunday to tune my bike alone. We drank 20 more, nearly cost me a divorce at 2:30am but will do (tune that is).
I just took the top off afterwards and drunk and all pressed so hard it didn't even click. It was just laying there besides the filter yesterday. That is why I went POP in my brain when I read what Karl and Max had posted. The light never turned off after the start, it never blinked and it did not take the ten starts Karl mentioned to figure it out.
Who's sensei here with the RT thing? I'm aiming for yellow belt just like in the other thing. I don't watch Seinfeld reruns anymore, I have just the itch to understand. I'm a geek, teach me please. I read the manual already.:rofl3:
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Hey, I try.
We can't really reshape the torque graph, that's pretty much set by the engine design and cams, but we can manipulate the graph to boost and smooth it (up to a point, those damn cams keep things in line)
Your idea that a smoother graph with more power across a wider range translates into a faster bike (especially on the street) is right on. One way you can prove that theory is on an intertial dyno. If you notice on some people's charts the HP is measured over time. After a successful tune you'll see that they reach redline faster than the baseline tune. That translates into a faster bike, simple physics
A serious tuner cleans up the midrange of the power curve then moves on to the WOT passes to get the top end tweeked for that "magic" number. That gives you a faster bike through the midrange that doesn't drop off on the top end. It's a sad fact that there are not a lot of serious tuners out there. Many are only interested in that magic peak HP and torque number and never take the time to tune for driveability. The really sad part is they are only doing what the public wants.
Anyway, enough on that. You just get your bike back to the tuner ASAP and get that thing dialed in. :icon_mrgr To do it right you are going to need quite a few passes and some time between them to analyze the data and let the bike cool down. You'll use up a Sunday so get their early.
We can't really reshape the torque graph, that's pretty much set by the engine design and cams, but we can manipulate the graph to boost and smooth it (up to a point, those damn cams keep things in line
)Your idea that a smoother graph with more power across a wider range translates into a faster bike (especially on the street) is right on. One way you can prove that theory is on an intertial dyno. If you notice on some people's charts the HP is measured over time. After a successful tune you'll see that they reach redline faster than the baseline tune. That translates into a faster bike, simple physics
A serious tuner cleans up the midrange of the power curve then moves on to the WOT passes to get the top end tweeked for that "magic" number. That gives you a faster bike through the midrange that doesn't drop off on the top end. It's a sad fact that there are not a lot of serious tuners out there. Many are only interested in that magic peak HP and torque number and never take the time to tune for driveability. The really sad part is they are only doing what the public wants.
Anyway, enough on that. You just get your bike back to the tuner ASAP and get that thing dialed in. :icon_mrgr To do it right you are going to need quite a few passes and some time between them to analyze the data and let the bike cool down. You'll use up a Sunday so get their early.
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mjw, I worked over the VE graph that I posted in the other thread http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=799
You can now see it for differnt throttle positions.
I checked also some other SE race tuner maps and it looks as if this the same with the original stock settings.
It would be intersting to know the reason for these settings. Maybe somebody in this forum has a link to the RD department of Harley Davidson and could find out more about it.
Jan-Dirk
You can now see it for differnt throttle positions.
I checked also some other SE race tuner maps and it looks as if this the same with the original stock settings.
It would be intersting to know the reason for these settings. Maybe somebody in this forum has a link to the RD department of Harley Davidson and could find out more about it.
Jan-Dirk
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One more example for the SE A/C & 16 Gauge
Double Barrel Mufflers file 105LS001.
I thought that the different exaust would make more difference but it is more or less the same at higher MAP's.
I wouldn't buy these double barrels if performance is the main objective.
Double Barrel Mufflers file 105LS001.
I thought that the different exaust would make more difference but it is more or less the same at higher MAP's.
I wouldn't buy these double barrels if performance is the main objective.
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J-D,
Since the VE is based on the theoretical capacities of the engine based on displacement and RPM it stands to reason that it wouldn't be 100% across the board due to variables like intake, cams and exhaust.
I think what you see, if you look at the course data, is the basic design of the intake and cams. Without variable valve timing and variable intake runners you will get flat spots across the power band and that's what we see here.
The subtle differences between the pipes is understandable considering they are both 2 into 1 into 2 systems (dual pipes with a crossover). You would really see the difference if there was a valid VE map for true duals (like a drag pipe). I even suspect the 2 into 1 systems wouldn't look all that much different since what happens after the collector isn't very relative to a VE discussion.
This goes to the point that drastic changes to the bikes power band will take intake and cam work in addition to an exhaust and a tune. However, you aren't going to get a sustained > 100% number in the higher RPM's regardless of cams, pipes and intake without some sort of power adder (Nitrous, Turbo, Super Charger).
I think it points out that a good set of pipes and a good tune, regardless of manufacturer, is only going to net between 118 - 122 HP. There are quite a few combinations that can get you there but without external help none will ever get you more.
Since the VE is based on the theoretical capacities of the engine based on displacement and RPM it stands to reason that it wouldn't be 100% across the board due to variables like intake, cams and exhaust.
I think what you see, if you look at the course data, is the basic design of the intake and cams. Without variable valve timing and variable intake runners you will get flat spots across the power band and that's what we see here.
The subtle differences between the pipes is understandable considering they are both 2 into 1 into 2 systems (dual pipes with a crossover). You would really see the difference if there was a valid VE map for true duals (like a drag pipe). I even suspect the 2 into 1 systems wouldn't look all that much different since what happens after the collector isn't very relative to a VE discussion.
This goes to the point that drastic changes to the bikes power band will take intake and cam work in addition to an exhaust and a tune. However, you aren't going to get a sustained > 100% number in the higher RPM's regardless of cams, pipes and intake without some sort of power adder (Nitrous, Turbo, Super Charger).
I think it points out that a good set of pipes and a good tune, regardless of manufacturer, is only going to net between 118 - 122 HP. There are quite a few combinations that can get you there but without external help none will ever get you more.
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I discussed it with a friend of mine, good aviation engineer who knows all about air flow symptoms.
What we see is typical resonance syndrome between intake and exaust. One cylinder effecting the other.
I will separate them on both sides and will do some lambda measurements.
On the intake I will probably use two single K&N High Flow filters.
On the exaust system I will take out the bloody catalysator and weld a plate in for separation of the two lines (or buy 2-2 system).
Of course I will need different cams, will see about that later.
With both cylinders completely separated I can start and do some good EFI tuning.
p.s. I can live with less torque at lower revs.
J-D
What we see is typical resonance syndrome between intake and exaust. One cylinder effecting the other.
I will separate them on both sides and will do some lambda measurements.
On the intake I will probably use two single K&N High Flow filters.
On the exaust system I will take out the bloody catalysator and weld a plate in for separation of the two lines (or buy 2-2 system).
Of course I will need different cams, will see about that later.
With both cylinders completely separated I can start and do some good EFI tuning.
p.s. I can live with less torque at lower revs.
J-D
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Seems like a lot of work to net out MAYBE 5 extra HP at WOT in the upper reaches of the powerband but it's your time and money. BTW, I would never sacrifice midrange torque and HP for a little more on the top end, that's not where the bike is ridden 90% of the time. Of course, if you're building a custom drag bike or a salt flats racer then that's a different story.
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1,471 Posts
Just install the software, you need a laptop with a serial port, difficult these days. The Belkin serial to usb is said to work in the manual. Hook it up and download file number 16 into it. Open Tuning mode program, click file, then click "load tuning file" or something loke that, read the istructions on the left. Just have the key in the off position, hook it up, turn key to the ON position and press the button that says "program ECM" or something, it's the lowermost leftmost button to the right of the instructions, it will ask if you have a 28t pulley installed and you just click on the answer. Wait for it to reprogram, about a minute. Turn off the ignition key. Disconnect the unit, wait ten seconds and you are done.
Do whatever with the pipes as long as you take the time to learn the data mode program to make sure it's not activating the knock sensors or just take it to the tuner so he/she can analyse the exhaust gases. Get an SE air filter and run it topless. I think you could just download the program and go.
Do whatever with the pipes as long as you take the time to learn the data mode program to make sure it's not activating the knock sensors or just take it to the tuner so he/she can analyse the exhaust gases. Get an SE air filter and run it topless. I think you could just download the program and go.
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redbud,
The bike is VERY sensitive to the configuration of the 16ga pipes. Removing the baffle WILL lose power that you will not get back. There's really not much performance improvements to be had screwing with the baffles on the 16ga however, if you're looking for some more sound then the baffles need to be modified. I'm not sure of the modifications the Steve (V-Mod) does but it seems the be the only mods that increase the sound without losing power.
For your setup load the map specific to the 16ga as a baseline. After you modify (or get modified) the baffles then get the bike on a dyno to find the lean spots and use the RT to clean it up.
Mark
The bike is VERY sensitive to the configuration of the 16ga pipes. Removing the baffle WILL lose power that you will not get back. There's really not much performance improvements to be had screwing with the baffles on the 16ga however, if you're looking for some more sound then the baffles need to be modified. I'm not sure of the modifications the Steve (V-Mod) does but it seems the be the only mods that increase the sound without losing power.
For your setup load the map specific to the 16ga as a baseline. After you modify (or get modified) the baffles then get the bike on a dyno to find the lean spots and use the RT to clean it up.
Mark
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