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Discussion Starter #1
Got a question was at my harley dealership today and I plan on going with the V&H 2 into 1 indy series pipe for my 03 rod. When asked about Power commander vs the Screamin Eagle tuner.I was told that the SE turner actually reprograms the fule management system vs the PC where it "tricks" the system. There is a cost difference but I am more concerend about getting the right system.

any suggestions or advice?
 

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both of them are capable of tuning your bike just fine. theres simpler units, but its all in what you are looking to do with mods. the search function is quiet amazing on this forum, you should try it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
thanks for the help so far I did use the serch function and really didnt find anything that gives me the true differences. I am not gonna race my bike just want a deeper sound. I am going to the V&H indy series as a friend is running that pipe and I love the sound plus I am getting some granthrow bags and need a 2 into 1 pipe so they fit :)

this is what I found when i did the search

http://www.1130cc.com/forums/search.php?searchid=5301567

if there truly isnt a difference then I will go with the lower cost option. If there is a difference then I dont mind spending the extra 100.00 or so on the screamin eagle tuner.
 

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The told you correctly, the PC III and V are piggyback systems.. The Super Tuner allows them to actually go in and make changes to the ECU... If all your every going to do is change the exhaust you will be fine with a PC.. If you planning future mods to the engine I would go with the Super Tuner... With the S/T you will have to get the bike dyno tuned and with the P/C unless you get the auto tune and can get it to work right....
 

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The PCV is know as a "piggyback" as it rides between the ECM and the rest of the sensors, ignition system & injection system

SE Tuner (currently SEPST - or Screaming Eagle Pro Super Tuner) is an interface module that allows a PC to talk to the ECM, re-flash tunes into the ECM, it will hold a few tunes in it's memory - and also can be setup to log sensor inputs (good for drag racers to watch what their engines are doing on a run) to review and revise tunes. While they don't have it for the VRSC's, it also has a function called "smart tune" which will suggest tuning revisions based on what has been "logged".

PCV has a number of "base tunes" that can be written into the PCV module via computer and included software, and has the capability to add Wideband O2's, to create a "trim table" that will allow it to further modify the base tune in the module, based on the AFR data the O2 sensors are sending. Using this and a "close" base map in the module will (supposedly) "automatically" correct differences in the base map and actual running conditions of the motor. There are also a number of base maps to be found here on the forum, and around Al Gores interweb.

SEPST has a number of tunes included from Harley, pretty much for only HD OEM mods. The Factory ECM does not have the capability to read wide band O2 sensors, but the OEM "switching" type narrow band O2's and ECM are capable of adjusting within +/- .5 AFR (along with other variables such as knock sensor, Intake Air Temp sensor (IAT), Manifold Absolute Pressure Sensor (MAP), Head and Coolant Temp sensors.

BEST RESULTS are ALWAYS OBTAINED FROM A DYNO TUNE by a competent tuner. Any shop that tunes HD's will know how to tune with SERT or SEPST or the other HD OEM variants. YMMV when it comes to tuning other piggyback or ECM replacement solutions.

The more you mod, the more likely you aren't going to find a dead-on base tune, and will need to invest in dyno tuning ANYWAY.

If you're just doing pipes and aircleaner - pretty much ANY of the 3rd party piggybacks or ECM's will do the trick.

In my personal (albeit somewhat limited) experience (PCV, Thundermax, SEPST), I got the best, most STABLE RESULTS with the SEPST and a solid dyno tune.

V Rods, with their dual throated throttle bodies (as opposed to EVO & TC's) require both cylinders to be tuned individually (which of course takes 2X longer). A shop that does a lot of V Rod work, will have developed a library of tunes (other than the HD provided ones) that will get the job done much quicker.

Now here's where TRUST COMES IN...

EVERYONE will tell you their tuner is the shizzizle. Harry Potter doesn't work here - there's no "magic black box" that will automagically make any bike, with any mod, run PERFECT (or sometimes even not run like dogshit).

Plan where you want to END UP. If you're going the whole 9 yards (heads, TB, cams, etc.), do it ALL AT ONCE - so you only have to TUNE ONCE. As close as these systems manage the engine, pretty much ANY MOD is going to require a re-tune - or in the case of auto-tuning systems - a pretty spot-on base map as a starting point...

Before (heads, cam, 58mm TB, pipes, topless, K&N aircleaner, Thundermax autotune):


After: (heads, cam, 58mm TB, pipes, topless, K&N aircleaner, SEPST & 100 dyno pulls)


Deponent Further Sayeth Naught...

Rick

PS - While googling around for something else - found this interesting rundown on HD EFI and fueling systems:
http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/motorcycle_efi_upgrades.htm
 

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Sickrick, looking at your dyno sheet, I'd say your T-max was busted. You dropped 25 horsepower between 6.6k and 8k rpm's, but the afr was reasonably flat
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Well this summer I am only going to do the pipe and airbox however next season I will probably have a bagger and at that point will do a lot more to my V since I will have a "long distance" bike. I think I will end up with the SEST for the extra $100.00 or so it seems well worth it for long term use. My HD dealer quoted me with install the dyno tune on either PC or SEST.

Thanks for the help.
 

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Sickrick, looking at your dyno sheet, I'd say your T-max was busted. You dropped 25 horsepower between 6.6k and 8k rpm's, but the afr was reasonably flat
Uh, ya think?

That's a demonstration of what "lack of a good basemap" looks like on a cam'd Revo with a TMax Autotuner (aka: the thundermax 7k rev limiter). The "flat" AFR was flat alright, about 2 AFR's LEAN for WOT (which should be high 12's/low 13's). I actually had the bike tuned and it ran "reasonably well" with autotune turned OFF - when enabled the problem started reoccurring (no reason to have an autotune system that WON'T), so I ripped it out and went with factory ECM and SEPST on a dyno tune (2nd graph).

Looking at switching to a 2:1 pipe soon, so back on the dyno it will have to go, but with such a nice tune on it already, tuning for the new pipe shouldn't take too long.

Rick
 

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Uh, ya think?

That's a demonstration of what "lack of a good basemap" looks like on a cam'd Revo with a TMax Autotuner (aka: the thundermax 7k rev limiter). The "flat" AFR was flat alright, about 2 AFR's LEAN for WOT (which should be high 12's/low 13's). I actually had the bike tuned and it ran "reasonably well" with autotune turned OFF - when enabled the problem started reoccurring (no reason to have an autotune system that WON'T), so I ripped it out and went with factory ECM and SEPST on a dyno tune (2nd graph).

Looking at switching to a 2:1 pipe soon, so back on the dyno it will have to go, but with such a nice tune on it already, tuning for the new pipe shouldn't take too long.

Rick
That's just not right. The Tmax should be able to hit your target afr's as soon as the O2 sensors heat up. I'd be very curious to find out what the problem really was. Obviously, the O2 sensor on the dyno could get a good reading, so the sensor on the Tmax should have been able too as well.
Makes me happy I decided to stick with the stock ECM.
 

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That's just not right. The Tmax should be able to hit your target afr's as soon as the O2 sensors heat up. I'd be very curious to find out what the problem really was. Obviously, the O2 sensor on the dyno could get a good reading, so the sensor on the Tmax should have been able too as well.
Makes me happy I decided to stick with the stock ECM.
Problem is (likely) related to the fact that there isn't even a CLOSE BASEMAP for the TMax with SEII cams. I may NEVER find out what the problem "really was", as I have ditched it and went the the solution that (obviously) worked.

The O2 readings are ACCURATE - the TMax Autotune is forcing an overly lean condition (for WHATEVER REASON).

Again - the notion that ANY "autotuning ECM Add-on" is some magic solution - just install, drive and like magic - your engine tunes itself, is kinda like thinking that Obama will post a certified copy of his birth on Whitehouse.gov's homepage. NEVER HAPPEN...

I'm not pissing on any 3rd party tuning solution here - with the PROPER BASEMAP for your installed mod - or the requisite dyno tuning - one may well be as good as any other.

But - if you're going to have to tune the bike ANYWAY, and unless there are COMPELLING REASONS (like 2/3 bar forced induction tables, etc) to go with a 3rd party ECM solution - for most of us, SEPST and a dyno tune is going to yield the best, most cost effective results...

TMAX with Autotune: $899.00
Dyno Tune $400.00
Total: $1,399.00
Result: :twisted: (this not counting months of phone calls, emailed tunes, trip to Tampa for tune, and endless frustration at a crappy running bike).

SEPST: $369.00
Dyno Tune: $300.00
Total: $669.00

Result: :bolt - Space Shuttle Night Rod...

I'm not "shilling" for HD in any way. Others here may have had better results with their aftermarket setup. I'm simply relating my experience.

Rick
 

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Discussion Starter #12
well I made my purchase a few hours ago. I ended up going with the V&H 2 into 1 outlaw full pipe. I also purchased the V&H fuel pack reason being they already have a base dyno for there system built in which should make the final dyno after install a bit more easy.
 

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The Fuel Pack is a POS IMHO, and a waste of money.. You would be much better off with a Power Commander..... I had a fuel pak for all of 2 weeks.....But thats just my :2cents:
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The Fuel Pack is a POS IMHO, and a waste of money.. You would be much better off with a Power Commander..... I had a fuel pak for all of 2 weeks.....But thats just my :2cents:
yeah I just got 10 hate text from friends when I told them what I bought LOL. the pipe was the way to go but the fuel pack wasent. I just emailed the company I placed the order with to send me a quote on the SERT and PC. So I will just pay the difference tomorrow and go with one or the other.
 

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Just my advice and wish I had listened way back when.. Go with the Super Tuner, little more money now but you will have what you need... Being that your already making plans for your next round of mods...
 

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Or go with the VRFID and that will be all you ever need... And there are several people that are very familiar with it.. Just watched one be installed in Australia and tuned by a guy in VA and Ohio over the web....

http://www.1130cc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146980
 

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Or go with the VRFID and that will be all you ever need... And there are several people that are very familiar with it.. Just watched one be installed in Australia and tuned by a guy in VA and Ohio over the web....

http://www.1130cc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=146980
Yeah, Scott gets to go to Oz to install stuff - lucky guy (wish he remembered to ship my 58mm stacks BEFORE he left - BAD SCOTT).

As mentioned previously - if A/C & Pipes are ALL you're going to do, one works as good as the other here (on MINOR COMMON MODS).

You go any further and the herd thins out rapidly...

To me, the benefit of:

1 - NOT having to deal with a 3rd party vendor (Chris can be a TOOL - James is an entire TOOLBOX) telling you "your bike is broken" when their shit has problems.

2 - NOT being married to the tuner that knows how to tune the 3rd party contraption (I had to run all the way to TAMPA from 'Lauderdale for someone who was willing to even TOUCH the TMax), since SEPST is a "known quantity" to ANYONE who tuns Harleys (airheads and Revo's alike).

Makes SEPST the hands down choice...

The only exception would be if you plan on going Turbo or SC, as SEPST doesn't support 2/3 Bar tables (but Mastertune DOES, and they're the guys that wrote the original SEST for Harley - only problem, if you flash with their latest firmware, the dealertech software at HD won't be able to see your ECM anymore).

Either way you go - MAKE SURE you get your tune on disk or jump drive. Even with SEPST, if your VCI gets fried, there's no way of extracting the tune from your ECM. You also (with SEPST) kinda gotta keep your VCI with you if you travel, in case you have an "ECM Disaster" and need to reflash your tune.

Rick
 

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Discussion Starter #18
well the place where I am getting the pipe from just told me they cant get the SERT, so I am going to go with the PC since it was really my mistake to begin with when I ordered the V&H fuel pack. I will be talking with them via phone soon.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
Just got off the phone with power commander and was told to get the power commander V since its been retrofitted to fit older bikes. Will get the pipe and PC by next thursday.
 

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The PC-V is a good piece of equipment UNLESS you decide to do future mods, the are a lot of threads on here about not being able to get it to work with the S/E 2 cams.....
 
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