[Sam V]

Another New Guy

Thanks to Kaz, I have been pointed to this website. As soon as I get thru with my last kid's college loan 1st quarter 2004, I will be V-Rodding with you all. I work for ChevronTexaco as an lubrication engineer. Not counting a previous life as a mechanic, I have over 25 years of fuel and lubricant testing and developing under my belt, so although I'm primarily involved in lube related stuff, I also have a pretty strong fuel background. I also handled all of the tech service for Amoco's racing programs, including CART, NASCAR, WoO, NHRA and AMA. I told Kaz that if anybody has any technical needs regarding fuel and lubricant issues of any type, send me an email or call me at 386-775-9309. I'm not pitching any products here, I just enjoy helping out. I've even come out to various clubs and conventions and given talks on general fuel and lubricant technology. Those of you who are getting oil analyses, if you're confused on anything, feel free to FAX me your reports and I'll look them over. Be sure to include some history, and always try to get samples of the fresh oil to use as a comparison baseline.

I look forward to interacting with all of you. Also, once I get my V-Rod, I'll be counting on you all to help me out with technical issues, mods, etc. as well.

Merry Christmas to all of you.

Sam Vallas
Orange City, Florida
386-775-9309
Fax: 386-775-1033

 

[Sam V]

Replying to Kaz.....
"Sam,
do we really have to break in new motors"50 for 500"?What about switching to synthetic.How about high octain does it help or hurt? "

1. Regarding engine break-in, the only consensus I've seen over the years is that the engine not be run at a steady speed for the first few hours of operation, and also, no idling, especially with new cams. Most of the guys I've worked, myself included, do a lot of "pulls" in moderate gears with coastdowns in gear as well. Try to ramp up to RPM, you know, 2-3,000, repeat a few times, 2-4,000, etc., etc. After a good few hours of this, the rings should be pretty well sealed. Another reason for this type of break-in and probably more critical is the transmission. Gears require a good running in so they can develop a comfortable wear pattern. This is the thin gray line you see when you take apart a gearset. Good loading and coasting along with moderate speeds play a big part in determining whether the transmission will last 50 or 250,000 miles. Also, after a few days of running, drain the oil and replace the filter. Getting the metal fines out of the machine is the single most important key to long life.

2. Properly formulated synthetics will always outperform most mineral oils, mainly because of their ability to:
. Maintain viscosity (film thickness) over a wide temperature range
. Remove heat more efficiently than mineral base oils
. Resist oxidation (cooking) that leads to acid buildup, deposits, and engine wear.
Our experience with all types of engines has shown that engines can be broken in from day one with synthetics. Or, broken in with mineral oils, then switched over to synthetics. This is what I do, mainly since I will be changing out the oil in a very short time, and only need it for a break in flush anyway.

3. Octane in of itself is of no benefit to an engine that is not tuned to take advantage of it. Octane is strictly the resistance of a fuel to detonation. This occurs after regular ignition and is caused by the pressure front of the traveling flame front increasing the pressure/temperature of the remaining mixture. In certain cases this can cause an autoignition to occur from the pressure, which causes the two flame fronts to collide. Instead of a nice "push" on the piston, a sharp pressure spike occurs which, at the very least, causes a slight pinging sound (sonic boom), at worst, the pressure spike and its associated high temperature will blow torch a hole thru head gaskets, pistons, etc. High performance engines are designed to run at much higher cylinder pressures than street engines. This is accomplished through timing advance, increased compression, power augmentation (super and turbocharging, NOS, etc.) Any combination of these changes can require fuels to have higher octane resistance. The only real way to know how much octane is needed is through extensive dyno testing using various timing and mixture maps with the race fuels. Racing fuels not only have high octane, but are usually formulated with heavier components that give more energy and tend to run richer. Engines that experience more power by just changing to these fuels with no timing or compression changes, are typically running too lean to start with and are simply running more efficient with the race fuel.

Hope this helps. One of these days, I'm going to put together an article on some of these topics. Meanwhile, give me a call or email me if you have questions.

Happy Holidays
Sam

 

[Sam V]

Hey, Max.... Back from the field. Nothing like a day at a paper mill and coal fired powerplant to keep the sinuses working.
Anyway, regarding your questions on oil analysis. For it to be a good tool, keep a couple of things in mind....

One, get a baseline test periodically on fresh oil so you have a starting point for your used oil data. Also, oils have a tendency to be reformulated from time to time and may have subtle differences in some of the additive and physical properties like color, etc.

Two, most people I know sample at each drain. Those who are running longer drains and will do intermittent "in service" oil analysis to "stretch" the intervals.

Three, make absolutely sure that when you pull your sample, that you do a hot drain and "clean catch" First, clean the area around the drain plug with brake cleaner. Don't wipe it down unless you are absolutely sure that you will not get lint into the sample. As you start pulling the drain plug, let some of the oil (at least a quart, or probably the amount that comes out before you can get the plug all the way out!) and take the sample bottle into the running stream for the sample. This is the best way to eliminate variables not engine related.

Be sure that whatever lab you're using is doing complete engine oil analysis. I'm not sure who you're using, but if you like, FAX me one of the test reports and I'll look it over and advise. Matter of fact, anybody out there with oil analysis concerns can FAX me a copy of their reports (386-775-1033) and I'll be glad to look it over. Just make sure to email me so I know it's arrived, and also give me a return email address.

Finally.... If you can, cut your oil filter apart and inspect if for metal and other contaminants. Just an added safeguard. Big chunks of metal do NOT show up in the spectroanalysis!

Regards,
Sam

PS: Any of you guys get out here for Bike Week?

 

[Sam V]

Hey, all.... Regarding engine oil on my bike, I'm going to be running one of my company's diesel engine oils. Either Delo 400 15w40, or Delo synthetic 5W40. Don't follow me on this until I can do a little more research. Those of you with service manuals will recall that if "genuine HD oil isn't available, they will permit an oil with diesel specifications like CF-4, CI-4 etc. Diesel engine oils have a tendency to do a much better job on deposit and high temperature wear control than automotive formulations, regardless of the base oil type. I have enough data on the Delo products including double length engine tests, etc., that exceed even the best synthetic equivalents. Also, I'm not as convinced as everybody else seems to be that a 20W50 is the best choice for the liquid cooled V-Rod engine. The tolerances in a liquid engine are much more consistent and tighter than the air cooled equivalents PLUS, the V-Rod revs a lot higher, PLUS a 15W40 will remove heat better than a 20W50. I've worked with Original Equipment Manufacturers in the past, and while they may have good engineers when it comes to building bikes, they generally depend WAY too much on the lubricant suppliers for that technology. I've been on both sides of this fence, trust me. Anyway, make sure you don't jeapordize your warranty. For those of you who love synthetics, and you should, any of the majors as long as it has API approval will do a good job. I would change the oil every season, since for most of us it is based on time rather than miles. This insures that the additives will protect the engine during extended shutdowns.

Sam

 

[Sam V]

First to KAZ. How do you know you are getting a lot more blow by with the increased pressures? Technically, the piston rings are gas seals that expand with gas pressure that pushes from behind. . If there's a good oil film everywhere, there should be little increase in blowby unless something is not sealing in the first place. Also, most of the blowby gas gets reburned through the crankcase breather system. Whatever does get by the piston rings will be handled by the various additives in the engine oil. Chemicals that occur in blow by, are mostly CO, NOx (from atmospheric nitrogen, NOT your N2O system), unburned hydrocarbons, CO2, and whatever else forms in combustion. Kaz, two things....if this engine/dyno guy is as good as you say he is, have him teach you how to do leakdown tests. You may have to hook up with Max since I believe the VRod has a compression release that needs to be disabled. This is the only true way of measuring cylinder sealing and has been done by racers for years. Also, he can measure crankcase pressure during dyno runs and make sure that you're not getting too much leakage. Finally, run frequent oil analyses and look at things like fuel dilution, oxidation, viscosity loss etc.. I can help you with that. Regarding oil changes, that would depend on how your analyses are looking. Again, get some done and I'll look them over.

Youngster.... Taking your reply from the end, there are a lot of reasons for oil consumption. First of all, If the ring and cylinder geometry is correct, the 15w40 will not necessarily be better than a 20w50. The rings need only a very thin oil film to seal the cylinder walls and move in the lands. What can affect oil analysis and is one of the main causes I see are deposits on the pistons. The engine oils on the VRod engines, like diesel engine oils, have a big role in heat removal. What happens is that combustion gasses combined with motor oil can bake deposits on the pistons. The critical areas are the crownland (sides of the piston above the first ring, and ring lands (grooves). Couple of things happen. One, crownland deposits grow and begin to polish the crosshatch marks off the cylinder walls. The crosshatch is designed to trap engine oil plus allow particles to escape from between the ring and cylinder. When this polishing occurs, oil consumption starts to rise and more wear and blow by occur. When the grooves start filling with deposits, the rings cannot move freely and lose their sealing properties with resulting loss of oil control as well as power loss and increased blow by. Going from a mineral base oil to a synthetic can stave off some of these concerns, but there's no substitute for a properly formulated engine oil. Diesel engine oils are designed to handle these high temperature deposit areas as well as neutralize a lot of crap that gets by the rings in those engines. Regarding SYN3, I hear from most people that they're satisfied with it. I don't know what's in it. Let me see a copy of your oil analysis. Also, get a fresh oil sample for reference. Is it the best? I don't know. I hear the same for Amsoil and other majors. Buying good stuff and changing it often will always work. My FAX number is 386-775-1033. I'll be here in my office finishing up paperwork for the rest of the year, so feel free to write or call (386-775-9309).

Merry Christmas!

 

[Sam V]

Max, I've always been a big fan of MOBIL I. When I worked for Amoco, I helped develop their first synthetic, and at the time, Mobil had been out there (after Amsoil, of course) for a few years. I am not completely sure what differentiates Mobil's V-Twin synthetic and their MX4T for inline engines other than viscosity. Again, I'm still not convinced that the liquid cooled engine needs that much viscosity, but there may be something else going on in there that I don't know about. I have dug into the shop manual for the V-Rod engine and having had some background in the German engines, I can really see Porsche written all over the engine design... you know, different codes for piston and bearing fitments, etc.... Torque to yield on fasteners. This may be where some of the viscosity craze comes from. Porsche, like most big diesel builders, likes to use oil for cooling, and probably want to make sure that the viscosity will not thin out at the high temperatures. I plan on doing a LOT of oil analysis, including boroscope, to make sure the Delo is working well on my bike. Meanwhile, stick with the Mobil product if it's working for you. Again, if you have any questions about oil analyses, Fax them to me. 386-775-1033.

Sam

 

[Sam V]

Hey, Mark.... Dead on on the break-in comments.... If you look at my previous response in that regard, I've kind of paraphrased (loosely) the technique you describe. No idling, no steady RPM's, lots of pulls up and down for a few heat cycles. Drain and fill with the best stuff you can get. The first couple of hours are the most critical..... U BETCHA! Not just engines but the rest of the driveline. As I said earlier, the gearbox run in is also in play, and proper load cycling will insure good mating of the gearteeth faces. What makes these darn machines even worse is the mutual engine/gearbox oil sump. Nothing contributes more to break-in metal than a brand new gearset. Biggest concern is that the really tiny assembly and break in grit will brinnell roller and ball bearings and reduce their overall life. One other thing I do, whether on my two cycle or four cycle oils. Get paint strainers from your local body and fender supply store and filter the oil when filling your engine.

Also, I don't discount Porsche one iota! Back in my autocrossing days in Chicago, I worked with a few 911 racers and am well aware of the oil requirements! My concern is that the Revolution engine, while using shared technology (probably more shared by Porsche than H-D), is still managed by H-D when it comes to items typically considered commodities like engine oils, fork oils, etc. They also may be depending a little TOO much on their technology from their lubricant supplier, who A), may want to consolidate. B), may know less about lubricants than most of the people on this forum. Remember, I've been at meetings with darn near all of them. I've got plants that can respond better to technical questions than some of the guys responsible for the well being of these beautifully crafted pieces of machinery.

soapbox exits stage right.

Sam

Sam

 

[Sam V]

I'm not convinced that the high fuel levels are "normal" regardelss of what the Harley dealer is saying, though I'll have to get feedback from others who are doing oil analysis before i pass judgement. Either way, it's cutting back on the viscosity and lowering your film strength. Again, those others of you out there doing analysis, I'd be interested in how your results fare.

 

[Sam V]

I wouldn't make any changes regarding the type of oil until you know for sure why the fuel dilution is occuring. A good synthetic will have better film strength (typically) and will offer better protection in the presence of contaminants. Again, I think you guys need to get to somebody at "the Company" who can answer your questions. I'm talking way above the district level, but somebody in their engineering team. I would watch the Discovery Channel video and start pulling names from the interviewees who were involved with the project, call the factory, and ask for contact numbers and emails, then start bugging the hello out of them.

Sam

 

[Sam V]

I don't recall accusing anybody of building a "defective" engine. I realize that HD went to a lot of effort including a technical JV with Porsche to insure a good engine. That's not to say it is perfect. As you have seen in other threads the bike has "known" some design growing pains. I just feel that in my experience (yes, I'm a senior as well) both as an automotive technician and fuel and lube researcher that there is no damn way that an engine should take such a long time for rings to seal unless there is some problem with the geometry of the rings and liners. Even the goofiest engines I've seen whether automotive, aircraft, or marine, usually have the rings seated within an hour or two on the dyno, a few days or so on the road or other medium. The fuel dilution numbers, in my experience, are completely UNACCEPTABLE, unless you like running the engine with a 25-30 viscosity engine oil. Sure, changing oil regularly makes perfect sense, but changing it to symptomatically deal with excessive break in time is ridiculous. As far as bugging the manufacturer, I've done it successfully both as a mechanic (Buick and Chevrolet) and as a researcher/field engineer. Matter of fact, I've got an engineer at one of the big three automotive engine design labs working on an oil consumption problem as we speak. Keep in mind that you guys have paid a lot of money for these machines. You as consumers have much more power at your command than any position I represented to these manufacturers. The fuel dilution issue is not a freak incident, but seems to be common to many of you. The manufacturer is obliged to find an answer.

 

[Sam V]

Yessir....386-775-9309

 

[Sam V]

Is it possible that the excess fuel in the oil is from improper Air/fuel mixture created by all the different flash/map/custom exhaust/etc. changes that are done to the bikes??

Mixtures could have an effect, though I'm suspecting in these cases raw fuel is getting past the rings either through cold startup periods combined with excessive idling/lugging.

 

[Sam V]

Haven't heard from you in awhile Big Guy where ya been? :kaz:

Traveling a lot. Unfortunately, I had to abandon the V-Rod concept and now ride a Road Warrior. Mostly for financial reasons, but also, I really didn't like the feel of the V-rods I tried. Warrior is certainly slower, but I like the way it fits and I really like the handling. What the hell.

 

[Sam V]

Would To rich of a mixture in combustion chamber cause raw fuel to wash part of the oil that helps seal the rings leak into the bottom end??

Yes, especially during cold starts and idling, if excessively rich. Predominantly will occur with a lot of stop and go driving combined with cooler weather.

 

[Sam V]

To Sam-V Lubedude (& to any one else who wants to answer):

1. The lube info you are sharing is great stuff. I really appreciate it.

2. Are some oils less susceptable to problems from water condensation than others?

3. Is it possible & desireable to break up or reduce existing oil deposits in an engine by switching to a different oil like a synthetic or a lighter viscosity?

4. Four people at my shop have identical 4.7 liter V8 engines in Dodge Dakota or Durango vehicals & are using standard (non-synthetic) oils. All of them have a slimey yellow/white sludge coating the inside of the non-metallic oil fill tube & the underside of the cap & the bottom of the removable baffle inside that tube. The greater the miles the heavy the sludge. The worst one looks like the baffle was dipped in a jar of mayonaise. I assume this sludge is a water/oil mix (caused by foaming?). Chrysler says the modified cap & baffle were designed to reduce a condensation problem. Any suggestions on how to further reduce this problem? Will changing to a lower viscosity or to synthetic oils help? Or should I just use this problem as an excuse to buy a Hemi when they become available in a Dakota :^)

Allen,
It sounds like dodge is admitting to inherent problems with condensation in certain engines. I'm not sure that changing to more highly formulated or synthetics will do a lot to cure the type of problem you are referring to. Additives can also aggravate this problem, so stay away from so called "mousemilks" since they can emulsify water even further. Best way to deal with this is to insure that the engines get hot enough regularly to boil off the water and fuel condensate. Also, change oil a lot more often in these applications, since often the additives congeal with the water to form the slime you refer to.

 

[Sam V]

Sam is Back....

I've been gone, but now I'm back.

After mucking around of the last "X" years with my Roadstar Warrior, which is now a nitrous fed, E-85 drag-only bike, I have taken the plunge and bought the bike I could only covet.

I am the proud owner of a new (Actually, 2006 but never moved) V-Rod VRXSE Destroyer.

I have only managed to get it to the track once, mainly for break-in purposes.

I will be running a synthetic 20W-50, mainly because the fuel I use has so much oxygen (a blend of Sunoco 260 unleaded and E-85) and the drag racing causes a lot of fuel dilution, particularly with high levels of alcohol, so I need to maintain the viscosity.

I will also be eventually converting the Destroyer to run on E-85 since I'm not running it in the AHDRA Destroyer class, and will really need the higher viscosity oil on this. Also, since this bike uses a lock-up clutch, the synthetic will afford a little better film strength between the plates, especially when launching off the launch control at 7800 rpm and having the lock up clutch progressively apply the clutch off the line.

I'm now acting as a training engineer with Chevron, and travel all over the country. I've done a couple of radio shows, and have done a few motor oil sessions for UTI here in Orlando for the motorcycle, auto and marine instructors.

I may not be able to spend as much time on the forum as I did when in the office, but I will respond eventually. Also, as before, if you have any fuel and lubricant questions, email me at [email protected] or [email protected]

Oh by the way, the "moly" in the oil in question in previous posts could be a molybdate, which is a good anti-oxidant and corrosion inhibitor. Moly can exist in many different compounds besides molybdenum disulfide.

Great to be back with you guys.

Sam
Orange City, Florida

 

[Sam V]

Glad to be back.....

Here's a picture of the Warrior. On the way to a 9.80 pass at 137. E-85, stock displacement. Old guy riding it.

 

[Sam V]

Oil Analysis

The oil analysis looks good.

Looks like the fuel dilution issue hasn't changed after all these years!
Also, 2% is not that unusual for engines like these. Problem is that unless you are constantly highway driving the bike, it is going to show fuel dilution.

If you guys are going to do oil analysis, try to send in a fresh sample of unused oil so you can have a baseline to reference from. Also, try to do oil sampling after a good hard run, and take the sample as hot as you can (practicing safe handling, of course! Canvas gloves over latex, safety goggles, etc.)

If you do this you may see the fuel dilution dropping, mainly because most people take samples when oil is cool and when the fuel has not had a chance to boil off.

Sam

 

[Sam V]

So....what I have gathered by reading this entire thread is that I just need to run what seems to work for me. I am a little bit more interested in running the Rotella 5-40 syn because that is what I have been running in my truck for 5ish years. Was wondering what codes I should look for in a diesel oil if I decide to run it?

Look for a major brand, like Shell, Chevron, Mobil, etc. The latest performance classification is CJ-4, though a CI-4 PLUS will also work. I personally use an SAE "something" 40 in my liquid cooled engines, both the Buell 1125r and the V-Rod. I've used both mineral (SAE 15W-40) and synthetics (SAE 5W-40 or 10W-40) with all brands and have never seen any real differneces in the oil analyses I've run or "felt" any performance issues.

I only use a 20W-50 (either Amsoil or Mobil V-Twin) synthetic in my Yamaha Warrior dragbike, but on that I'm running E-85 and need the extra vis to handle the fuel dilution I get with the drag only operation.

Some people don't like to hear me say this, but I still feel that HD "forces" the 20W50 viscosity on the liquid cooled crowd since it is the drug of choice for the air cooled majority of their fleet. When you calculate the rotational speeds of bearings and other parts of the high revving, tighter clearanced liquid engines, a 20W-50 is just a little too "slow." Matter of fact, there is at least one well regarded V-Rod racer on this site who is beating a V-Rod at the strip all the time with a 0W-20.

Sorry for the delay, I travel a lot.

Regards,
Sam

 

[Sam V]

hello Jack, Herry, and welcome.
Is it true that changing the oil more often does more damage than good?

Not at all. Only damage is more recycling into the environment and expense to your pocketbook.

If you are referring changing from one TYPE of oil to another, also not true. All properly certified engine oils are designed to be compatible with each other, so the old rules no longer apply.

Happy New Year,

Sam Vallas
Chevron Fuel and Lubricant Specialist