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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

The engine that should have been the next follow on engine to the Revolution engine in the V Rod - V V T 6 Speed lighter, more compact, 150 Hp and where does the MoCo put it ? An ADV Bike - Oh well maybe they'll create a new power cruiser and/or naked bike for us with it later -

Let The Fireworks begin !!! Comments ? Suggestions ??
 

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I'll start!
On paper looks pretty good until, as somebody in the comments also picked up on "The cylinders are single-piece aluminum, with the bore getting a nickel silicon carbide"
Not a great fan of coated liners, brings back bad memories of chromed 2 stroke cylinders!
And it still looks like a plastic "Airfix" model!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Yea, I was put off by the " Nickasil " exploded wire deposit cylinder liners as well - although they were fairly durable in dirt bikes they had no tolerance for dust or dirt inhalation and of course that happens so normally a shorter life and that's in a two stroke with oil constantly in the gas/injected into the cylinder for lubrication - plus no real re-build ability without somehow installing an iron cylinder liner into an over bored cylinder if enough wall material or expensive replacement of the entire cylinder with a new one - and since most will last thru the warranty period guess who'll pay for that !? Will it pass the 500 Hour Dusseldorf test ? 200,000 mile V Rod actual mileage test ? I doubt it. Maybe it's not designed to last look at all the repair $ H-D never made with the V Rod ! I'd like to read / hear about other 4 stroke engines that use these type of liners and their reliability - anyone got ant info ? I think the Chevy Vega was bare aluminum not coated but you see what they say about the rings ? Low tension so no need for a ring compression tool, that's to keep ring wear of the cylinder liner coating down from excessive ring tension and drag. Hope H-D has fully tested this design. Guess you could always overbore the cylinder .025" then under size the piston to get the iron liner in there so it's back down to an 1130cc engine ? 💩😫 Hey more members for 1130cc.com !! (y):cool:
 

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Yea, I was put off by the " Nickasil " exploded wire deposit cylinder liners as well - although they were fairly durable in dirt bikes they had no tolerance for dust or dirt inhalation and of course that happens so normally a shorter life and that's in a two stroke with oil constantly in the gas/injected into the cylinder for lubrication - plus no real re-build ability without somehow installing an iron cylinder liner into an over bored cylinder if enough wall material or expensive replacement of the entire cylinder with a new one - and since most will last thru the warranty period guess who'll pay for that !? Will it pass the 500 Hour Dusseldorf test ? 200,000 mile V Rod actual mileage test ? I doubt it. Maybe it's not designed to last look at all the repair $ H-D never made with the V Rod ! I'd like to read / hear about other 4 stroke engines that use these type of liners and their reliability - anyone got ant info ? I think the Chevy Vega was bare aluminum not coated but you see what they say about the rings ? Low tension so no need for a ring compression tool, that's to keep ring wear of the cylinder liner coating down from excessive ring tension and drag. Hope H-D has fully tested this design. Guess you could always overbore the cylinder .025" then under size the piston to get the iron liner in there so it's back down to an 1130cc engine ? 💩😫 Hey more members for 1130cc.com !! (y):cool:
History, with the exception of the v rod, they don't fully test. Twin Cam and M8 as recent examples. The consumer is usually the long term testers, then the updates come, usually on your dime . Interesting to see how it holds up long term. I'm 50/50 on the coated cyls. Some have had success, some not so much. Not sure how stable the aluminum bore will be. Vega comes to mind. I'm still wrapping my brain around this statement. With a 30-degree offset for the connecting rods, the Revolution Max 1250 motor has a 90-degree firing order. Is this a single pin or two pin crank ?
Ron
 

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Another HD to be tested by the consumer:
Saw that. Took like forever to get the smoldering under control with the fire department wait time. That will give people faith in a $37k bike as they drive by, plus it was held up in production before due to a charging problem. I think this was a demo bike a well, not sure. You'd think HD would run there quick as a bunny with an asbestos (or the politically correct ) current blanket and cover it up so all prying eyes can't see it.:sneaky:
Ron
 

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I gotta admit, not a fan of the looks either, but at least they have embraced new technology. As for the coated cylinders... I guess time will tell.
 

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  • “The oil pump is designed to pull vacuum in the crankcase, which can further reduce internal engine friction because lighter piston ring pressure is required to minimize combustion blow-by.”

  • So.... to me this sounds like marketing bullshit. A vacuum in the crankcase with combustion pressures in the cylinders will reduce blow by?? If I remember physics correctly... pressure wants to go from high to low- or did Covid change this too?
 

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History, with the exception of the v rod, they don't fully test. Twin Cam and M8 as recent examples. The consumer is usually the long term testers, then the updates come, usually on your dime . Interesting to see how it holds up long term. I'm 50/50 on the coated cyls. Some have had success, some not so much. Not sure how stable the aluminum bore will be. Vega comes to mind. I'm still wrapping my brain around this statement. With a 30-degree offset for the connecting rods, the Revolution Max 1250 motor has a 90-degree firing order. Is this a single pin or two pin crank ?
Ron
Yes that is a bit of a mind boggler. Would have to be two pin wouldn't it to get 30deg offset. Seem to remember some of the JAP speedway motors had offset cranks.
 

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There are two balancers to smooth out the motor. The primary balancer is a chain-driven design inside the crankcase. Its job is to smooth out the vibration created by the connecting rods, crankpins, and pistons. It also lessens side-to-side imbalance than can come with offset cylinders. A second balancer sits between the cams and ahead of the cylinder head to reduce whatever vibrations get past the primary balancer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
That's funnny Ceigenburger ! :LOL: So looks like they confused two separate statements - and left something out -

1) "The oil pump is designed to pull vacuum in the crankcase, which can further reduce internal engine friction because"
Add - of the reduction of the crank and balancers etc. running thru an oil bath which absorbs power.

2) " lighter piston ring pressure is required" Add - because we don't want regular tension rings to wear the Nickesil coating off the aluminum cylinder and we're hoping to "minimize combustion blow-by.” Add - because with this system if there is significant blow by it might send oil pressure through the roof in a unfortunate circumstance of bootstrapping the oil pump.

Just trying to help navigate thru as you say marketing B/S created by non gear head type people for gear head type people. It's the least I can do - :rolleyes::confused:

[/QUOTE]
 

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  • “The oil pump is designed to pull vacuum in the crankcase, which can further reduce internal engine friction because lighter piston ring pressure is required to minimize combustion blow-by.”

  • So.... to me this sounds like marketing bullshit. A vacuum in the crankcase with combustion pressures in the cylinders will reduce blow by?? If I remember physics correctly... pressure wants to go from high to low- or did Covid change this too?
It actually can reduce blowby by pulling the rings down to the lands at higher rpm. At high rpms the rings can float and the positive seal between the ring and piston land is compromised allowing compression to be lost past the rings. One of the things missing in the v rod is one way breather valves that promote slight negative pressure in the case, which will do pretty much the same thing or at least help. Real solution is to mechanically pump the case to negative pressure be it a special add on pump or in this claimed case part of the oil pump. The second bonus is a case that is under slight vac , the piston down stroke won't have as much air to hit and slow it down . Those two functions of ring control and lack of case pressure add hp.
Ron
 

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There are two balancers to smooth out the motor. The primary balancer is a chain-driven design inside the crankcase. Its job is to smooth out the vibration created by the connecting rods, crankpins, and pistons. It also lessens side-to-side imbalance than can come with offset cylinders. A second balancer sits between the cams and ahead of the cylinder head to reduce whatever vibrations get past the primary balancer.
There ya go. I see all that manual proof reading has payed off. 😁 Sound then will be not the classic 60*. More Ducati ish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
At the end of the day ( or the decade ) the history of reliability for these new Revolution Max engines will be the true measure of their merit and the vindication of their somewhat doubtful at this point cylinder and piston ring engineering - you can get another 35 Hp out of a V Rod Revolution 1250 with not a lot of actual machining - yes it's still heavy but for the average guy ? With an ADV bike ? Probably not a useful end user of the " New Technology " to get it to this Hp level. Yes I like new technology, yes this is the follow up to our 1250cc Revolution engine that we've been talking about for 5 years but let me know if you think ANYONE can use 150 Hp off road OR 150 Hp on road with an ADV bike with ADV tires. Sorry, I don't see it. This is a perfect Revolution replacement engine, it belongs on a dedicated STREET bike, not an On/Off road compromise bike. I've jumped 250 Lb 400 cc 4 stroke bikes 85' + You will never, ever use 150 Hp off road, unless maybe you're running the Dakar Rally, and that's less than .0001% of the riders on the planet, maybe. Right engine, maybe, wrong bike for sure. I rest my case. Put it in a power cruiser H-D with iron cylinder liners and we'll talk.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
So that's my 2000th post, just noticed that - if I thought about it before hand I wouldn't have had a post as good as that for H-D management. It is what it is. At least they created the engine we've all been dreaming about, less the Nickisil liners. So put it in a bike deserving of it !!
 

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... I'd like to read / hear about other 4 stroke engines that use these type of liners and their reliability - anyone got ant info ? ...
Hello streetrodracer,
as far as I know, the BMW boxer engines for example use NiCaSil- coating since the early 1980's.
And they are extremely reliable.

Also the newest member of the boxer engines uses this coating, see here in the 2nd paragraph:

 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yes Stefan_AL those Boxer engines last forever so that's a great example - thanks, hopefully H-D's coating quality is as good as BMW's - it will have to be if the engines going to rev to 9500 Rpm compared to the Boxer engine which is a longer stroke and more torque oriented - and not as much Rpm. Guess we'll see how well they do with it - all I can say from my off road experience is owners better keep the air filter clean because dust & dirt really destroys that coating and cylinder and you can't hone scratches out if it does. Better for street bikes with clean air being sucked in most of the time, I suspect the Pan America ADV bike will spend most of it's time on the road and lesser off road but a fewer # of owners may reverse that and ride more off road so they'll need to keep a well oiled air filter - sounds like it's got a cleanable one installed from the H-D factory so that's a good move on their part.
 

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At the end of the day ( or the decade ) the history of reliability for these new Revolution Max engines will be the true measure of their merit and the vindication of their somewhat doubtful at this point cylinder and piston ring engineering - you can get another 35 Hp out of a V Rod Revolution 1250 with not a lot of actual machining - yes it's still heavy but for the average guy ? With an ADV bike ? Probably not a useful end user of the " New Technology " to get it to this Hp level. Yes I like new technology, yes this is the follow up to our 1250cc Revolution engine that we've been talking about for 5 years but let me know if you think ANYONE can use 150 Hp off road OR 150 Hp on road with an ADV bike with ADV tires. Sorry, I don't see it. This is a perfect Revolution replacement engine, it belongs on a dedicated STREET bike, not an On/Off road compromise bike. I've jumped 250 Lb 400 cc 4 stroke bikes 85' + You will never, ever use 150 Hp off road, unless maybe you're running the Dakar Rally, and that's less than .0001% of the riders on the planet, maybe. Right engine, maybe, wrong bike for sure. I rest my case. Put it in a power cruiser H-D with iron cylinder liners and we'll talk.
My opinion is that they were going to put this motor in other bikes but they got cancelled. They need to get into other markets, which ADV is a new one for them and a growing one. So with the restructure of bike line up, I can see that they wanted to recoup the effort by putting this engine into an ADV bike. I wouldnt see any other engine in an ADV that harley makes. Most people that are looking in the ADV market are looking for modern engines with water cooling. I hope its successful and not dropped as Harley needs to move in this direction.

I would like to see this motor be put in a larger bagger, like the Road Glide. This would put Harley up against the new Indian Challenger.
 

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I'll start!
On paper looks pretty good until, as somebody in the comments also picked up on "The cylinders are single-piece aluminum, with the bore getting a nickel silicon carbide"
Not a great fan of coated liners, brings back bad memories of chromed 2 stroke cylinders!
And it still looks like a plastic "Airfix" model!!
Anyone remember the Chevrolet Vega
 
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