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Discussion Starter #1
You'll see from previous posts of mine that I've been asking quite a few questions about tuning systems... tried an Accel SLM and promptly sent it back. I finally settled on the MasterTune... primarily for it's "no hardware/direct tuning" capability and countless other tuning features... but most important to me: it's an accurate/proven tuning system that doesn't require a dyno.

I'm now in the process of "V-Tuning" ... this is my initial experience. Please learn from my initial mistakes. :D

Firstly, and slightly off-topic ... I'm now intimately familar with the glitchy gas gauge. I hope there is a fix for this soon. but I digress... keep in mind that the VTuning process can take quite a bit of fuel.

I'm running Windows 7 on my laptop.

First VTune run:
I set my laptop to not go to sleep when closing the lid while running on battery power. This does not mean it won't go to sleep due to perceived inactivity, even if it is capturing data. Make sure your laptop power scheme is set to never go to sleep, not just the "lid" function. I only captured about 10 minutes of data on this run because of it.

Second VTune run:
Successful.

Third VTune run:
Only captured about 500 frames of data. My laptop has a "shock" sensor which promptly turns off the harddrive if it senses excessive shock or movement. Lesson learned -- disabled now during VTune runs.

Fourth VTune run:
Seemed like a great run, got in to the garage and only captured 200 frames of data. The USB came unplugged from the laptop, must have tugged on it right before I left the garage. Added more slack to the cable in to my backpack. Lesson learned.

Fifth VTune run:
Successful.

Need one more run to get rid of some "pinkish" cells then should be good to go!

I'm using Doc's tuning guide ... If you can't find it let me know and I'll send it to you (PDF file.)

Bottom line: Make sure you've got your laptop set up properly before doing VTune runs. I've read countless threads on another forum about this but still didn't get them right. After a nice 30 minute run of trying to get a decent data set, then finding out that you've got nothing is quite frustrating, to say the least.
 

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I did a few DataMaster data capture session today too, I guess my VE tables are now quite acceptable by now. When I do a DataMaster session, I also put to zeros the Accel Enrichment and Decel Enleanment tables to have the close loop mode really trying to use only the VE tables. I also use CLBs set to 447 to have the O2 sensors used on the middle of the narrow band they were designed for, again to try to improve the accuracy of the data captured.

Note that the system ignores data above 6500 RPM, so it's not necessary to hurt the engine with high revs running lean.

(My opinion with the vtune process on the VROD is that we take rpm so quickly that it is difficult to make a real good data capture on a public road in the summer, there are too much cagers everywhere, I'll do some other runs later when all the tourist are back home)

If you start full stock you are probably using ZA176-002-B1 as a base tuning file. I took the same file while running:

- stock for DX sold in France (100hp limit with narrower velocity stacks + stock A/C)
- US velocity stacks (115hp) + SE A/C (my current setup)

The file ZA176-002-B1 has its PE AFR table 'flat' (all lines set to 12.8), which is strange, TTS did not reply to me yet about this. So I took the PE AFR table from ZL176-002-B1 and copied it into ZA176-002-B1.

I also had the chance to get access to SEPST and have a look at the map which corresponds to ZA176-002-B1: its name is 176ZL001. It's AFR table is different from the Mastertune file, as well as the CLBs & the spark advance tables, which is also a bit difficult to understand for me since they are supposed to run in the same ECM of the same bike. I suppose that there are many different ways to make cookies also :hmm:

Tomorrow I'll experiment a very different AFR table I have built using the advices of 'djack', who has setup an excellent web site about the TTS device. However you must read French :D

It's there: http://vtwin-injection.forumactif.net.

Note: like www.1130cc.com, you must be registered to have access to the full content of the site. Currently it seems that I'm the only VROD biker on this site, but many of Djack advices for air heads can be used for our water boxes.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Hey bpf... thanks for the info! I was wondering why I couldn't get any hits above 6500RPM... I know I was well above that in my data runs, good to know! I wonder if it still uses the lookup tables for these ranges, even though we can't VTune in them?

Did you do any blending when you were done? If so, which method did you use? left to right in the upper right quadrant, and top to bottom in the lower left? Did you ignore your "yellow" cells in the VTune baseline data and just blend the last good white cells? I haven't done this part yet... wondering if it's even necessary?

For your CLB table... 447 seems pretty lean, about 14.64 AFR? I wanted to lean mine out a bit to get rid of the dreaded 2000RPM-4000RPM "stutter" ... which may not apply to your particular setup. I'm running the following for both cylinders for my CLBs:

1200 759 759 759 759 778
2500 759 759 759 759 778
3000 759 759 759 759 778
4000 759 759 759 759 778
5000 778 778 778 778 778

I don't think I'll hit the 778 that much, considering it takes a ton of effort to get my MAP kPa above 40 most of the time. This (759mV) equates to about a 14.54 AFR.

I didn't notice the PE tables on the ZA176-002-B1... that's weird that they're all set to 12.8. Let me know if you hear anything on that from TTS, would be good to know and good catch!

Thanks for the information, I look forward to posting up some more info on my final calibrations (once I get rid of some more pinkish cells on a few more data runs.)
 

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Hey bpf... thanks for the info! I was wondering why I couldn't get any hits above 6500RPM... I know I was well above that in my data runs, good to know! I wonder if it still uses the lookup tables for these ranges, even though we can't VTune in them?
I suppose that the ECM needs to lookup the VE info for all conditions but the data capture is not able to give result to tune the VE cells above that range. TTS did not give any details about the reason of the limitation. I guess that the whole system has been designed for air heads running at lower revs so hitting a ceiling at 6500 was not a problem.

Now I wonder what the Germans do use for their VE tables since they have some highways with no speed limits and some of them may run above 6500 for a longer time than simply accelerating (The German situation is always a good reason to get information about speeds generally illegal everywhere else :D)

Did you do any blending when you were done? If so, which method did you use? left to right in the upper right quadrant, and top to bottom in the lower left? Did you ignore your "yellow" cells in the VTune baseline data and just blend the last good white cells? I haven't done this part yet... wondering if it's even necessary?
I did a very little amount of blending. If I saw a value out a trend, I smoothed it a bit, for instance if I have:

98
98
99.5
100.5
99.5
101
103

I will either move the second 99.5 to 100.5, or 100.5 to 99.5. I check columns and rows that way.

For the cells that are very difficult to reach and shown with a blue half band on DataMaster, I do the same check but I don't extend their numbers: the mere fact of having great difficulties to reach these in a voluntary manner shows that they don't count much when riding in normal conditions. If I can find more time to tune, I would prefer to focus on the spark tables, which I left untouched.

For your CLB table... 447 seems pretty lean, about 14.64 AFR?
450mv is exactly 14.68. But the system allows for 447 or 467, so with 0.3% of error I thought the engine could stand it for a single VTUNE session. Anyway the stock map probably uses 447 or 467 since it must reach the 'holy grail' of 14.6 as much as it can. (this is how I understand the compliance to emission regulations, I may be wrong)

I wanted to lean mine out a bit to get rid of the dreaded 2000RPM-4000RPM "stutter" ... which may not apply to your particular setup. I'm running the following for both cylinders for my CLBs:

1200 759 759 759 759 778
2500 759 759 759 759 778
3000 759 759 759 759 778
4000 759 759 759 759 778
5000 778 778 778 778 778

I don't think I'll hit the 778 that much, considering it takes a ton of effort to get my MAP kPa above 40 most of the time. This (759mV) equates to about a 14.54 AFR.
I guess the most used column of the CLBs is the leftest one and unless you are riding in a very cool manner, you probably hit 5000/20 already many times.

However by using value above 467mv you re running richer and not leaner. If at low revs you have sputter, may be your air cleaner is just dirty and the ECM tables won't fix it.
I didn't notice the PE tables on the ZA176-002-B1... that's weird that they're all set to 12.8. Let me know if you hear anything on that from TTS, would be good to know and good catch!
I forgot also to report that the PE mode is fired from 3500 rpm instead of 4500 rpm.
Thanks for the information, I look forward to posting up some more info on my final calibrations (once I get rid of some more pinkish cells on a few more data runs.)
This morning I flashed the attached calibration.

View attachment BF-VSUS-ACSE-008.MT7

The AFR table is different from what we usually see:

afr-8.png

The logic is to keep the 14.6 AFR (a bit more rich since I have CLBs @ 700mv) only when cruising at highway speeds (66.5mph-78.5mph here) and limiting this at 5000 rpm since above I need to run rich anyway and at lower revs I'm usually stopping at traffic lights in town and have my legs boil so I want the engine to cool a bit. I also slowed a very little bit the idle rpm at highest temp for the same purpose.

Now I need to ride with this file and see what mpg I get. I did just about 12 miles this morning (city + highway) and the bike was running fine.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I guess the most used column of the CLBs is the leftest one and unless you are riding in a very cool manner, you probably hit 5000/20 already many times.
Good point there, I didn't put enough thought in to that when I did my intial CLBs. I think I'll start over and set those to something a little lower... luckily the weather is nice today so should have enough time to get in 3-4 VTune runs (i.e. starting over won't upset me too much!) The more I read, the more I think I want to just keep the CLB tables around 700mV as you state. That still should be a bit richer than factory when in closed loop.

However by using value above 467mv you re running richer and not leaner. If at low revs you have sputter, may be your air cleaner is just dirty and the ECM tables won't fix it.
My "stutter" is from the factory... air cleaner is brand new. This is a known/well-forum-documented issue (mostly on the VRSCF apparently...) setting these CLBs a bit lower should "tune out" the problem in closed loop though, will report my findings once I'm done tuning.

Curious to know how your new calibration works. Did you adjust your PE to 4500rpm? That seems a little more logical for our engines...
 

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Curious to know how your new calibration works. Did you adjust your PE to 4500rpm? That seems a little more logical for our engines...
Yes, PE is triggered from 4500 rpm.

I did not ride much today, about 30 miles and everything ran fine. This afternoon I went down to Cannes (sea level), then for half an hour along the crowded seashore and back home by the highway. All in all I tested most the different kinds of roads I usually take but mountains roads. No decel pops, no surge, no particular problems.

I rode hard (I like to enter the highway with a good acceleration, reaching a rpm just under the rev limiter on the two first gears and then cool down and stabilize to cruising speed) but also much slower when slaloming between the cagers. At all revs the engine was working as expected.

I guess that my tuning was also very simple because I did not change the exhaust pipes. I'm also very happy of the changes I made on the suspension, I have now an excellent traction on the rear wheel, more accuracy in curves and I can have real fun with the engine.

I really enjoy staying in the mirror of a biker riding a Japanese bike, they usually look in the mirrors, accelerate, look again, etc. since they can't believe that a Harley is able to keep the pace :D

There is a lot of hills/mountain around here, I made the data captures between sea level up to 700 meters, but I did not go up to 2000m yet: riding at higher altitude and mpg are the latest points I'll check and if they are okay I'll keep the setup this way since unfortunately I don't have enough time to test different AFR tables. Maybe I'll try to do some dyno simulation in a few weeks, I have a trip to do in Italy in an area with flat and straight highways, something we don't have here.
 

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Riding in a reasonable manner (<= speed limits) mostly with my son on the back seat (total: pilot + passenger:286 pounds) on mountain roads (up to 1400m/4600ft) + a few miles of city driving + 22m of highway @ 66.5 mph, I did 35.5mpg with the previous file. A couple of times when moving from neutral to first gear the engine stopped, I'll revisit the tuning file in the next weeks, trying also to work on spark advance.

What about you WickedPorter ?
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Riding in a reasonable manner (<= speed limits) mostly with my son on the back seat (total: pilot + passenger:286 pounds) on mountain roads (up to 1400m/4600ft) + a few miles of city driving + 22m of highway @ 66.5 mph, I did 35.5mpg with the previous file. A couple of times when moving from neutral to first gear the engine stopped, I'll revisit the tuning file in the next weeks, trying also to work on spark advance.

What about you WickedPorter ?
Hey bpf/thread lurkers,

I did finish my VTune runs on Saturday, and spent an hour blending/tweaking the file Saturday evening. I've been riding with it ever since and all is well so far... no problems at all, seems to be running great (based on sound and feel.) I haven't ridden enough to calculate any MPG ratings, will hopefully know by the end of the week. I won't be doing any timing adjustments until I get my backrest and luggage strapped to it; riding around with a laptop in a backpack and a cable dangling isn't fun at all. For now, I'll rely on my knock sensors and the premium fuel I'm running to take care of any excessive knock/ping. No knock/ping is detectable by my ear right now, though, not to say that means I don't have any. My tuning file is attached.

For VE tables; I blended left-to-right, then top-to-bottom. I did use some trending techniques on a small handful of cells that didn't have enough data or were blank.

My CLBs:
759 759 759 759 778
759 759 759 759 778
759 759 759 778 778
759 759 778 778 778
759 759 778 778 778

Here are my "file comments" :
NC-21Aug10: Set PE to 4500 from 3500
NC-21Aug10: Blended per Doc's instructions
NC-21Aug10: Adjusted PE Table - reasonable now
NC-21Aug10: AFR in CL: 14.54 (759mv) normal, 14.45 (778mv) loaded
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Food for thought ... (I've also posted my concerns over at the HTT forum, where more TTS people frequent...)

As I continue to think/learn/analyze what I'm doing here, I'm starting to get a bit concerned about the inability of DataMaster to capture VTuning data above 6500RPM. I don't feel good about blending the values in these VE cells... it's not like they're not "uncommon" cells. Being V-Rod's, the range between 6000 and 9000 RPM is pretty common for a good range of throttle positions.

I realize pretty much anything above 6000RPM is not in closed loop, but I still have AFR targets that I'd like to reach in my AFR table, and how close to those targets is it going to be with "blended" VE cells with no authentic VE data from VTune?

Seems to me like another area where the VRSCs are left behind... airheads with a much lower redline are taken care of.
 

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Food for thought ... (I've also posted my concerns over at the HTT forum, where more TTS people frequent...)

As I continue to think/learn/analyze what I'm doing here, I'm starting to get a bit concerned about the inability of DataMaster to capture VTuning data above 6500RPM. I don't feel good about blending the values in these VE cells... it's not like they're not "uncommon" cells. Being V-Rod's, the range between 6000 and 9000 RPM is pretty common for a good range of throttle positions.

I realize pretty much anything above 6000RPM is not in closed loop, but I still have AFR targets that I'd like to reach in my AFR table, and how close to those targets is it going to be with "blended" VE cells with no authentic VE data from VTune?

Seems to me like another area where the VRSCs are left behind... airheads with a much lower redline are taken care of.
I thought the TTS-Mastertune Guru was on this forum and if so maybe he will answer your concerns for all of us to see..... yes ?
 

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Discussion Starter #11
From the manual/response from the other forum:

"The Histogram is limited to 6000 RPM maximum, as the sensors cannot respond fast enough to obtain good VTune data at any higher RPM."

I find this pretty frustrating, simply because I'm unable to accurately tune the last 1/3 of my RPM operating range.

I also find it frustrating that I always find this information out AFTER dropping a load of cash on it... and with the TTS system, pretty much impossible to return or re-sell.

:banghead:
 

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I dropped TTS/Mastertune from my vendor base. They were not supportive of anything I tried to do with them.... very frustrating to say the least.....
 

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Bpf... two years ago i drove along the coast of france and into the alps taking a detour via italy... you have som sick roads there... (the picture in my avatar is taken in Cannes)
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I decided to e-mail Doc, one of the definitive sources of information for the MasterTune system. Here is his exact reply, which I do admit, coming from him, restores a good deal of confidence I have in the system.

Nick,
It's no problem with what the range of tuning is on the V-Tune system. As I tune a Big Twin I only V-Tune to 4000 rpm and it's red line is 6200 however at 4000 rpm the bike is traveling over 100 miles per hour. The rpm between 4000 and 6200 is a band that you are passing through to full throttle. I do tune full throttle with the dyno sniffer so it's set when I do the tuning.....which you can't do as a end user on your V-Rod.
Now the same holds true for your rpm range.....V-Tuning up to 6000 rpm is tuned very well and blending from there will get the rest in the ball park. Now what most people don't know is the map has several LEARNING CELLS through out the map ....these cells look at the changes being made in the ADAPTIVE FUEL VALUES and apply them to the open loop of the map also.
Nothing beats a good dyno tune however you can get your bike to run good and safe with the V-Tune software. You have to relize just because your bike will run up to 9000 rpm doesn't mean you are riding it any where close to that and if you are then you need a good dyno tune.
Hope this helps.
 

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from DOC: "You have to relize just because your bike will run up to 9000 rpm doesn't mean you are riding it any where close to that and if you are then you need a good dyno tune."

I have a lot of respect for Doc, but he really needs to get on a V-Rod and ride one. I don't see how you can ride one and NOT see 9000 RPMs at least a few times per day. I do have the TTS and do agree with him that V-Tune has it's place, but it is no replacement for a dyno tune.
 

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I think he means riding it there as in "riding with the engine screaming at 9000 rpm the entire time". Yes you can do it, but most folks shift into the other gears.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
I think he means riding it there as in "riding with the engine screaming at 9000 rpm the entire time". Yes you can do it, but most folks shift into the other gears.
Correct.

And after the V-Tune and blending, the engine seems to run just fine at higher RPMs. What Doc was trying to say is, the bike should run fine at higher RPMs with the blending and/or the original calibration numbers. However, it's not going to be anywhere near perfect above 6000 and you most likely will not be making as much H.P. as you COULD at these RPMs. A dyno is recommended for a proper tune above 6000.

Makes sense to me...

WP
 

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Bpf... two years ago i drove along the coast of france and into the alps taking a detour via italy... you have som sick roads there... (the picture in my avatar is taken in Cannes)
It's very difficult not to find a good (or bad) reason to ride the bike around here :)

VrodPete said:
I have a lot of respect for Doc, but he really needs to get on a V-Rod and ride one. I don't see how you can ride one and NOT see 9000 RPMs at least a few times per day. I do have the TTS and do agree with him that V-Tune has it's place, but it is no replacement for a dyno tune.
I agree. I made a trip to Trieste two weeks ago and I did what the italians do when then come on this side of the border: I did not pay much attention to the speed limits. I had the bike at 213km/h for some time (GPS speed) and went at high rpm for hours, running the map I posted (I did not took time to revisit it since it works correctly). This engine is designed to give extreme pleasure between 5000-9000, it does the job well and sure we are loosing accuracy with the vtune limits.

I don't understand why the diag system would not be able to provide correct data over 6000 rpm: I would understand if one changes of engine rpm very quickly (whatever the rpm btw), because of the slow bandwidth of J1850VPW but if you keep the engine at 7000 for say 20 seconds, you have the time to take all the readings you need whatever the diag bus bandwidth, at least for a few openings: at least they would confirm the manual blending.

Now even the official HD tool has the same limit... it's difficult to understand if it's a real technical limit or laziness to redesign the whole data process on a market where they probably sell only 5% of their devices to vrod owners and 99.9% of these owners will not even notice the difference between the max rpm of the bike and the limit of the tuner. And a lot of vrod bikers will not stay at high rpm for a long time.

When I queried Steve Cole about this limit, his answer was: "You cannot Vtune above 6000 RPM so that is why that screen is limited to that" :banghead:
 
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