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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Does anyone have the intake cam profile for the 1130cc?

Spent some hours searching through old posts and can't find the information.

I'm intrigued by those who use 4 intake cams in turbo applications and am wondering if I could go that route with a SuperCharger.

...Since my Jones Stage 2 SuperCharger cams and springs set order was refunded... 180 days since my order and just before the cutoff I contacted PayPal to open a refund case with Jones. If I hadn't there would be no recourse for me. I had to protect my finances.

Sean
 

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Your answers should be here

 

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Seems the Turbo setup is ultimately boost limited by backpressure in the exhaust affecting the intake charge at some point regardless of optimized cam timing. The Supercharger may hold more ultimate boost potential due to the no back pressure exhaust, but having the correctly sized supercharger and reliable drive system is the key plus the difficulty of fitting an intercooler between the S/C and the intake tract so anti detonation injection or super high octane race fuel would be required. At the end of the day a 300 Hp Alcohol / Gas Turbo Revo is probably the realistic top power pinnacle. A 300 Hp S/C is possible but it would probably require a lot more research and innovative equipment to make fit and be reliable. Fitting a S/C and leaving it around 165 - 180 Hp would be great for the street rider and maybe push it up to the currently sold S/C equipment's limits for the drag bikes. Big Fun either way but everything has it's limitations in reliability tolerance, and expense in money and time for the owner of the Mad Scientist engine power projects. (y):cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Ok so I'm running a TTS-PERFORMANCE Stage 2 kit with an upgrade to the C30-74 Rotrex. I have Fitzgerald engine brace. ARP studs and bolts. Fitzgerald oil pain. I have 9.5:1 JE Pistons that will be sent to SwainTech for P-9 skirt and Gold Coat domes ceramic coating.

So Richard at TTS-PERFORMANCE said that with my bolstering of the engine with the above components and with the upgrade in the Rotrex that I should be able to safely achieve between 200-250 HP. Chain drive.

My dyno guy Dan Thayer has requested I buy a barrel of VP C16 race fuel and only run that. He said the 5 gallon cans of C16 will lose their potency and that siphoning from a barrel yields more potent fuel than shaking it from a can.

So...that said...I am looking for the cam profile of the stock 1130cc intake cams to compare to Fitzgerald forced induction cams. This will be a dedicated drag bike.

Thank you SRR for your thoughtful reply.

Sean
 

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2003 VRR - I think you're on the right track for big S/C power for your drag bike. Interesting to determine where detonation point is and when ADI would be required with no intercooler to drop IAT to acceptable levels. Also retaining Delphi ION knock spark retard system for engine protection is a great idea. Did the above post from JJrod lead you to the intake cam specs ? It's been greatly discussed here but I think better for Turbo's than S/C's, they are two different thought patterns for max flow - you should compare Jones's S/C cam specs to Fitzgerald's - that's where you need to be I think Scotts cams will work fine and if you have adjustable cam gears you can get what you need at the higher power levels - talk to Scott if you haven't yet and see what he thinks you'll need - (y):cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Found it deep in the thread JJRod linked. Thanks man. I was "following" that thread already but must have not gotten that far down.

Intake lobe lift .429"
Intake Duration @ 1mm lift 248°
Intake centerline 106°
Intake Opens @18° BTDC / Intake Close @ 50° Abdc
Opening and closing numbers are @ 1mm cam lift
 

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Found it deep in the thread JJRod linked. Thanks man. I was "following" that thread already but must have not gotten that far down.
Intake centerline 106°
You need a slotted gear when using intake cam as exhaust.
Btw, 4x intake is the best camming I have ever had in V-Rod Turbo.
 

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I compared Scotts forced induction cams to the 4 intakes and there is very little difference between the two. I'm with Karzza on the 4 timed intakes being the best I have experienced with my turbo.
 

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Yes and that's great guys but that's a Turbo application - although similar, the Supercharged application is a whole 'nother animal especially on the intake side - I would think S/C intake valves could stay open longer and close later maybe exhaust opens and closes a bit sooner to keep charge in the cylinder - due to little exhaust back pressure trying to go backwards into the cylinder and into the intake charge like a Turbo - what's needed is a comparison between Fitz's FI and Jones's S/C cams - I might be wrong but I'm thinking from memory Jones's are optimized for a S/C system and differ from his Turbo cams to put out some more power than just installing a set of his Turbo cams - or 4x OEM intakes, which are similar to Fitz's - much more Turbo than S/C experience here but I'm sure in the archives there's gotta be some S/C cam experience - I've got a comparison I'll get out later, going from memory here - :cool:
 

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Scott's forced induction cam specs
Total Lift: Intake .470 Exhaust .470
Duration @ .050 IN .250 EX .250

Scott's cam duration was measured @ .050 inch
measurement on the 4 intake was done @ 1mm which is .03937 inch
 
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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Thanks guys! I appreciate all the valuable information and your help in researching whether the four intake cams would work. I've seen the photos (in another thread) of the slotted (or drilled) cam gears. I have a local machinist who I still have yet to contact to see if he can do it right. Unfortunately I've just heard he may have early signs of Parkinson's, which might not bode well for his accuracy. But it may be the simple "set and forget" on his machine. I'm not sure. Hafta talk to him. Last time I saw him I took some Ironhead heads in to have valve seats put in. He was kinda rude to me and said it wasn't worth the effort. But he's considered the best in my area and the real "go-to" guy for the local Mopar guys.
 

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Thanks guys! I appreciate all the valuable information and your help in researching whether the four intake cams would work. I've seen the photos (in another thread) of the slotted (or drilled) cam gears. I have a local machinist who I still have yet to contact to see if he can do it right. Unfortunately I've just heard he may have early signs of Parkinson's, which might not bode well for his accuracy. But it may be the simple "set and forget" on his machine. I'm not sure. Hafta talk to him. Last time I saw him I took some Ironhead heads in to have valve seats put in. He was kinda rude to me and said it wasn't worth the effort. But he's considered the best in my area and the real "go-to" guy for the local Mopar guys.
Thoughts:

You have enough going on in terms of modifications that I would leave stock cams in place for the time being. Why? Variables! TRUST ME when I say you have a huge tuning task ahead of you when this gets put together.

Also, you can fairly accurately estimate rwhp based on the compression ratio you are planning and the boost level your larger Rotrex should hit. My prediction is you will have some serious charge temp issues without a very good intercooler. FYI, Richard's plenum is not ideal. Does it work? Yes. I would chat with some race shops that are very experienced with forced induction. Take your plenum to them. LISTEN. At the intended power levels you are chasing you are going to have little room for error. Kaarza has tore his engine down countless times (he makes it look easy) to reach the power levels he posts about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Thank you Freudie1: I have contacted my Dyno guy Dan Thayer. I will set up an appointment with him to take my plenum in to him. I will also buy an extra set of cam gears for him to slot should the need arise. I'll be doing this all at once in one visit so I don't waste his time. If there is anything else you think I should bring to his attention please let me know. I'll post here my revised and updated build sheet so if you have a chance maybe you can tell if I'm missing anything. I have an order in with Gowanda Harley Davidson for the last two tools that I don't already have that the manual requires for the build: Tappet Compression Tools and Locking Pin. That order was placed last November and still hasn't arrived but they said perhaps in May, so I'm awaiting. All the other tools I've been buying as I see them and squirreling them away! I've scheduled my tear-down for August because I have a friend visiting from North Dakota who will help me. However I may begin the tear-down sooner and instead have him help me with assembly. My appointment with Dan for the Dyno runs is in December. Cold enough but not too cold so he'd hafta wear a snowmobile suit lol.

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Thank you Freudie1: I have contacted my Dyno guy Dan Thayer. I will set up an appointment with him to take my plenum in to him. I will also buy an extra set of cam gears for him to slot should the need arise. I'll be doing this all at once in one visit so I don't waste his time. If there is anything else you think I should bring to his attention please let me know. I'll post here my revised and updated build sheet so if you have a chance maybe you can tell if I'm missing anything. I have an order in with Gowanda Harley Davidson for the last two tools that I don't already have that the manual requires for the build: Tappet Compression Tools and Locking Pin.
Search the forums, you don't need those (or you can make homemade versions).

I know Scott Fitzgerald was selling a compression tool he made in his machine shop at one point as well.

There is a mountain of information you need to read up on especially if you have some time (and it sounds like you do).

I'd grab a copy of Corky Bell's book on forced induction to start bedtime reading. I'd also recommend reading some "old" forums in regards to cars that were factory boosted and are very popular: DSMs, Grand Nationals (REALLY good info)....

Read up on detonation, knock, pre-ignition. Read about what each one is, what it does, how to avoid it. FYI: If someone tells you it's not an issue with a Revo...ignore them. Laws of physics don't change regardless of the application.

Read up on engine control options for this bike. I'm very against aftermarket gadgets/tuners/ecus for this platform. Some have had some success going that route. What you are planning MAY require aftermarket due to the high levels of boost (relative to the Revo that is....) you are planning on using. Curious what boost level you will see with that big a Rotrex on this engine. I have no experience with the larger Rotrex headunits. Has Richard shared a compressor map (or have you downloaded one from the tech portal from Rotrex)? You can figure out boost levels from that (and the pulley size on the headunit).

I can't caution you enough to take this slow. It's incredibly easy to end up with two big ash trays formerly known as pistons (and that's the best outcome, worst is you have extra "ventilation" holes in your block!).

Several of us on this forum have discussed (and implemented) alternative boost control methods for the Rotrex superchargers by the way. I'm staring at a solution right now however I can't remember the name/vendor, RON: What is the valve called again? <--If you really want to maximize the potential of your blower I would do the following:

Put the smallest pulley on your headunit that won't cause it to spin faster than specified (read map and docs from Rotrex). In conjunction use an electronic boost control tied to an external dump style wastegate. If you design it right you could even tie into what gear the bike is in (you would have to read the J1850 databus to get this data, read get friendly with a custom electronics guy/car hacker) and then feed that into the boost controller so that you could have boost levels different by gear! I run such a setup on my drag car as it helps from blowing tires off for the first half of the track.

Intercooler: Topic unto itself. BIG fan of water to air, especially for drag racing. You can build some stupidly complex and compact i/c setups this way. MAKE sure whatever IAT sensor you implement is "fast" reacting (pro tip: The stock IAT sensor is slow as it wasn't designed for fast temp swings such as what your intake charge will do when boosted...). At a minimum you want (need!?) to log accurate IAT's so that you can determine IF you need an I/C (spoiler alert: you do) and secondarily how well your i/c is working.

Your two biggest enemies: Knock and fuel (by the way WHAT injectors are you running in this setup?). I see your list states "650CC" for the size, but what model/type? I run the IWP-189's from a Ducati (Richard sells those or at least he did....btw very hard to find actual MM injectors as they are counterfeited to hell) but <=12 PSI on my setup.

Read up on my fuel pump rewire/circuit thread as well. You WILL have issues if you don't.

Enough of my ranting, go start reading.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thank you Freudie1 for pointing me towards all this information. And for taking the time to give me this advice. I have been reading way back into this forum and will continue to pursue these as well as other resources you mentioned.

Corky Bell's book: I'm on it. Will order today.

Det..knock..pre-ign. Yes. Been reading a lot about that on this forum and very concerned which is why I am choosing "piggy-back" PCV rather than DTT. Question still open is whether I will need or even want DynoJet Part No. AT-100B (Autotune) given that I am having this professionally tuned by a Bonneville builder/racer who is very familiar with forced induction. He has tuned Sprintex and Holy-Moto but not yet TTS-Performance so I may be paying a little bit for his adaptation time. But after our 3 hour interview over the late winter I can tell he does nothing willy-nilly-like. And as busy as he is, it was very nice of him to take that amount of time with me. I brought up many many subjects that have been discussed here especially in the BigBore/Turbo/SC/NOS section.

I will start looking at electronic boost control units.

"Slow and Stead wins the Race!" -Marge Simpson ... The only time constraint I have is my Dyno appointment. Which is in December. I have all the parts I can get prior to tear-down now as shown in my build sheet. I have fitment with rods/pistons to do and have Swain Tech coatings to do. And a lot of reading!

I'll await Ron's response and look into the valve you mentioned.

The pulley supplied with the kit is an 80mm. I have had one person tell me that's too small. But he's also said I should be going 12:1 compression so I think he is full of it and himself. An amateur from FaceBook who thinks he's a professional. Tells me I'm wasting my time listening to Richard who only manufactures the kit...only! As if...

YES! On the wastegate! I need to find one...Electronic boost control. Haven't read about this but very interested.

Intercooler: Richard makes one but said that I shouldn't need it. I'm not sure I like that response and will investigate having one made or buying his. Not sure I will need it for the 2 minutes or so the bike will be running. Empire Dragway runs cars and bikes and Junior Dragsters at alternating intervals. Mostly cars. And so there is plenty of time between runs...plenty...for the bike to cool down. This doesn't say that I won't be traveling elsewhere to race where the intervals are more rapid.

Injectors: I will look at them again to find out what maker Richard supplied and reply.

YES! On your fuel pump rewire thread. I've read it several times and fully intend to follow your advice there. Fredy.ee sent me a fuel ring lock tool.

Thanks again. With all the help I have gotten/will continue to get (and FOLLOW) on this forum and the lack of pressure for the build (7 months left) I am confident I will be able to pull this off. Learning from others' unfortunate mistakes will be my boon I guess.

Sean
 

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I have a couple sets of S2 1130cc cams from back in the day. One set has the compression release tab things on the end. Dont know about specs, but am willing to part with both sets. At the moment I dont recall the manufacturer, but megacams comes to mind. (I dont think thats correct)
If you're interested, message me.
John
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I have a couple sets of S2 1130cc cams from back in the day.
John
John do you happen to have the cam profile figures? Are they Stage 2 for Naturally Aspirated or are they Stage 2 for Forced Induction? Either way if I could compare the specs I most definitely would be interested if they come in line with what I need. Thank you!

Sean
 

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I'm not home at the moment. I got these awhile ago from a guy who built one of the 1st trask turbo bikes, 05ish. The specs, I've no clue. I went by the letters / numbers stamped on ends & Googled. Going by memory, they were S2NA. Ill look more into it tomorrow, or this weekend.
John
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
OK...being that it was for turbo? Maybe they are Forced Induction? I'd be willing to take a gander at what you have when you get home if you could post some pics and such.

Thanks,

Sean
 
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