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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have posted both a stalling and vibration thread on this forum on my newly acquired 2003 Vrod. I have gotten a number of ideas from this that I will give to the dealer(is not the selling dealer) when I get my scheduled appointment April 14th.

One question keeps coming to my mind and I do not have any idea how to answer, so I will ask it here. May be stupid but here goes.

The bike had dealer installed Screaming Eagle exhaust when I purchased it. I am aware that there is a charge of 150.00 plus labor for the required ECM download to support this configuration. How does one tell if this was done, can it be done incorrectly, and if not done at all or done incorrectly, could it cause the problems that I have experienced? Could anything else be done in this procedure that could cause such problems? No documentation was offered to me by the dealer supporting their claim that this had been done, nor that that they had done the fuel flange recall update.

I have been in the computer business since 1968 and am well aware of the problems that incorrect or missing downloads/fixes can cause your PC.

Roger
Milpitas, Ca
 

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Color me Gone
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sxrxrnr I had hoped one of them like Rick Nielson would jump in on this. I'm not sure if they can read the current load ID with a scanner but my guess would be that a dealer could. I am sure that without a scanner it can not be read. I base this from the fact that GM and HD use scanners made by the same company and the techII that I have can read the current program ID number.

Max
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Max:

Any thoughts on if this download was not done as claimed by the dealer, or if done incorrectly, could it cause the problems that I have described with stalling and/or vibration.

Thanks again for your help and sympathy.

Roger
Milpitas
 

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just a ghost now
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Roger,

One way of determining whether they reflashed your ecm is that your bike would seem to run very lean, this would be noticable in the 3-4000 rpm range especially. Like when your cruising at a steady 55-65 mph in 5th gear, its noticable as a lean surge, like your bike/engine will not maintain a constant speed, kind of like a very mild miss. That rpm range is where stock bikes run the leanest, high air/fuel ratio, to meet EPA testing. Its a catch 22, you need the dealer with their scanalizer to determine whether they did reprogram you ecm, the dealer you're questioning. Unless you go to another dealer and pay to verify it was done originally. This is one of the key factors why I went with the PowerCommander, you know its there, I did it myself and you can try/use different maps or fine tune it. I just checked with my dealer on cost of reprgramming, was thinking about reflash to correct my speedo with the 28T pulley, $150 for the cartridge plus .5 hours labor, with tax, $200. No wonder HD is so damned profitable, they got us by the balls. Call me paranoid but I just don't trust the workmanship of any dealer anymore......
 

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SNAFU
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If you know someone with the RT then they can read your ECM information. It only marries to a specific ECM for programming, it can read ANY Delphi HD system.

The dealer should also have the ability to read the calibration file info with their Digital Tech software/hardware. Ask them to pull the ECM configuration and print it out for you.

I suspect that your stalling issues are not due to an incorrect download (it either works or it doesn't, there's no partial load) but possibly that they never downloaded anything. Follow this thread and print out the calibration file information so you can review it with the Service manager ;) http://www.v-rodforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3282
 

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just a ghost now
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Mark, another one of the very knowledgable vrod gurus here. Max, you blew that other vrod forum out of the water with this place, and a hell of a lot faster responding too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Pollizio

Some intelligent man(my father) would say that his defintion of Paranoia was "An elightened sense of awareness". My senses have certainly been enlightened via my experiences with my selling dealer and calls to HD's Customer Service Department.

This "paranoia" has now caused me to think the unthinkable, that a dealer may not have performed a download(and charged me for having done so) or incorrectly applied it. And from your comments, it is impossible for me to find the answer without paying another dealer to check the work of the selling dealer.

Of course this may not be the problem with my bike's stalling and vibrations, but someone else is fond of saying(Dr. Dean Edell), that "when you hear hoofbeats, think horses not zebras".

Perhaps my appointment with the dealer that I have scheduled for April 14th(the non-selling dealer of the bike as my selling dealer says that their business is so good that they cannot get me in until April 26th(for a bike that I purchased March 20th and reported my problems the very next day) will uncover the failure of this bike to perform the way that HD promised me that it would in the millions of dollars that they spend on marketing each and every year. Certainly their Customer Support was of zero value to help make this happen.

I sometimes wonder if upper management(above Customer Support)at HD ever check in on these forums to find what us chickens are eating out her.

Thank you for your comments

Roger
Milpitas
 

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just a ghost now
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Roger,

I like your father's definition of paranoia, makes me feel better. Obviously, he is a wise man. Did you find that when you were riding your 2003, at steady cruising around 50-65 mph, was it steady or did it exhibit lean surge symtoms? Sure sounds like they possibly failed to reflash the ecm. It is very sad that a man buys a expensive motorcycle, a fine one at that, and has to struggle with an inept stealership, and there are many. Don't get disheartened in the VROD thou, it is a very fine machine, your problem lays with the dealership and its failure to properly service its paying customer, and their failure to execute service properly. Its all about the money, greed with these guys, and some of HD's own too. Now I must say I have heard some of the guys talk well of some dealers, so their all not rotten apples. We have seen on "vtwin forums", formerly harleydavidson forums, months back, guys struggle with the same failures with dealers and HD customer service. One guy finally got his vrod replaced after airing his sorrid, sad story on the forums, of making payments on a bike which was spending its' life within the dealer's shop. But I'm rambling here, we got plenty guys in CA with vrods, and members here, perhaps someone in your area with the Race Tuner/software will step up and help out a fellow enthusiast, a brother with a problem. If I could, I would but I'm in Louisiana and don't have the RT. HOW ABOUT IT, anybody around Roger's location who can take the time and help out with the RT software? Step up if you can. Hey Roger, I wish you success with the problem, you'll get it right and fully enjoy the rod.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Pollizio

Cruising at 55 to 60(I am still under the 500 miles that HD suggests before exceeding 3000 rpm) there is no surge. Just an incessant vibration which I cannot feel is normal. Again this vibration is quite severe thru the hand grips, foot pegs, and seat. It is there whether moving or not. If you are not moving and run the tach to about 2000 rpm is like a severely out of balance driveshaft in an auto. When cruising, if you disengage the clutch and coast, all is smooth. It does seem in time with the engine pulsations that you hear thru the exhaust. It is night and day different from my Heritage and also the Vrod that I have subsequently rode at a dealer for a test ride.

The dangerous problem is the stalling 3 or 4 times daily in say 2 hours of riding. It sometimes happens happens at the most inopportune time(oncoming traffic on say a left turn) or a couple of times caused embarrassing moments when it stalls at a stoplite(hard to maintain a cool look on a Vrod when this occurs).

I have learned now to continuously tweak the throttle when I am moving slowly or stopped with the clutch disengaged(something that I did on a couple of cars that I owned in previous lives--like my 46 Mercury when I was a teenager) just to make sure it does not stall. I doubt that this feature/requirement was designed in the engine by Porsche. Perhaps my dealer thinks that in addition to the mentioned vibration, that they think that this too is a normal requirement for owning a Vrod. I did not note this in the marketing brochures however.

Thank again to you all for your help

Roger
Milpitas
 

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Fireman/investigator
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Roger, that is not normal... no way!
 

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Roger,
My wife has had the same problem as you. The bike has been to the shop 4 times with the bike still (stalling). Took it to another dealer, they installed the 28 tooth and she had the flange done. We only rode 10 miles home but the bike did not stall and it did not have the bad vibration. So, hopefully they did something that worked. We have not rode since that time, so I guess time will tell if it ( stalls out ) I really do hope it doesn't but keep everyone updated and I will to. Just hang in there, I know it is hard to as my bike had the same symptoms but for some reason (knock on wood) it has not ran rough or (stalled)
Doug
 

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SNAFU
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Give the other dealer a chance but if they don't find something and FIX IT then INSIST on the phone number of the HD regional rep. Hound them like there's no tomorrow, document all the conversations and be prepared to invoke the California lemon Law (if it applies to motorcycles, I'm not sure if it does or doesn't)

What you have is not normal by any stretch of the imagination.

PS. Call HD customer support and register a formal complaint against the orriginal dealer. They get graded and every negative report does make a difference.
 

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just a ghost now
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Sounds like more than just a lack of proper ecm reflash. Sounds like serious vibration your talking about Roger. I'd follow Mark's advise closely.(above)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
MJW930:
My last conversation with Shawn at HD Customer Service, I axed for the name of the Regional Rep. He said that I did not have access to speak to him directly. I axed who did. He said that he did. I axed that he speak to him on my behalf. I got some fuzzy answer which did not sound like I was making in impression on him to help me and did not press him further as I got to thinking of another tack. I axed how to file a complaint on my selling dealer. He said this was only done in the most dire of circumstances and gave me the impression that he did not wish to do such a thing. I pressed him further, he said that this did not often happen for a customer to file a complaint. I responded that I felt this was a dire circumstance (stalling in traffic about 30 times now), that I have been pressing you on this, and you have been shining me off, no wonder not many complaints ever get filed thru Customer Service by a customer as most folks simply give up. He finally agreed that he would do so, and that I may hear from someone else from HD to get details of my complaint. This pleased me as now perhaps I will get to speak to someone who perhaps have some value to add to my efforts to get this bike repaired as my prior conversations(3) with Customer Service and 3 visits to my dealer have only given me a parked new bike. Of course I have an appointment from another dealer(San Jose Harley, the non-selling dealer) on April 14th and perhaps they will arrive at a problem determination and solution before any action on HD could do any good.

My misgiving on this, is that even though I will likely never use this dealer(selling dealer) again to make any purchase, you never can be sure that you will not need them(even though I need them now to no avail) so you do not wish to burn all bridges(but I suppose it does not bother them to do so with their customers as their present attitude has shown in the handling of this).

Pintvrod: Sounds like you do not quite know what they may have fixed for certain, or even if it will stall again, but sounds like vibrations are gone so something they did helped. Wish we knew exactly what it was. My dealer told me that flange problem had been taken care of before I purchase the bike. Were you charged for 28 tooth gear?

Roger
Milpitas

Roger
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
After some vigorous debate, I got my dealer's techs to hook up to my machine to see if at least I had correct ECM download installed. After 45 minutes of scratching around they decided that I had an "02" ecm(for 2003, 30 tooth, SE exhaust) and that I should have an "02A". They did not have proper cartridge, and could not download, so will order from HD. Meanwhile bike is still scheduled to go into the OTHER Silicon Valley shop for a look-see on the 14th. Bike continues to stall on a regular basis. I have reached a point where I can almost sense when it will stall. Usually after a couple of vigorous miles on the freeway(say at 60 mph(I am still under 500 mile breakin period), then a slow down to say 30 mph in 2nd gear, disengage clutch, coast a little this way, and it dies. I have learned to continually blip(just like my 46 Mercury as a teenager) the throttle after such a run, and bike does not stall. However sometimes I will be just sitting at a stoplite idling and out goes the fire. Bike continues to vibrate excessivly I believe. Picked up shop manual and read in troubleshooting area of vibration problems. Manual says ignition timing can cause this. We will see what corrected "02A' does for me when we get it. I do not have too much hope that only this is the problem but if the incorrect "02" download was screwed up somehow(if they missed getting the right one, perhaps they screwed up installing the incorrect one, and really compounded what the bike is actually using in its ECM??????). Who knows, but it is really a drag on a new bike!

Does anyone know if the factory original download must be reloaded before the correct "02A" is installed? Perhaps I am getting too paranoid. But again my definition of paranoia is " An enlightened sense of awareness".

In spite of all this, I love the bike. The Heritage has moved once in the past 3 weeks.

Roger
Silicon Valley Ca
 

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Biker Pilot
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sxrxrnr - I checked mine. I have the -02 download also on my '03 w/ SE pipes, K&N filter setup. I checked the printed list of accessories from the dealer to get the part number of the download. Mine is part number 32026-02 (flash number 32008-02), which seems fine looking at mjw930's link that is posted above. It is for an '02 or '03 w/ 30 tooth sprocket, w/ or w/out airbox lid. I don't know how the -02A is different, but mine runs awesome as is. I hope you get yours worked out. BTW - I am a couple hours south of you near Monterey...let me know if you want to meet up sometime. - Crash
 

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Biker Pilot
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I just looked up both part numbers on the Chicago HD site. It didn't say what the difference was between the -02 and the -02A, but it did say that the -02 is an obsolete part number and has been replaced by the -02A part.
Does that mean the dealer will reflash for free??? (I doubt it, but I'll ask!)
 

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MASTER VR TECH
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Guy's look, By they way hello RX. You can access the download info from a scanalizer, or the digital tech. There is no reason for a dealer not to do one. The last thing your dealer wants is for you to comeback. As for a bad download or the -02A or B. I personally have done thousands on numerous bikes, and have never seen any bad ones, Except for '04 touring bikes. They need the '04 downloads not VRs. As I have said before. The downloads are H-D product specific only. If you have aftermarket pipes, the download will not give you full performance. You would need a E.F.I. race tuner or a PCIII. Hope this clears this one up. Later SKI
 

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Roger,
Yes, we were charged for the 28 tooth gear. Still had no time to ride the bikes - been building an upper deck, taking out a window and put in a door from our bedroom out to it, put rope lighting all around and getting our spa tomorrow. Just to busy to ride right now, but they are calling for great weather this weekend, so hopefully we get to put some miles on them to see if the stalling problem was fixed at all.
Doug
 

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Biker Pilot
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SKIROD - what is difference between part number 32026-02 and 32026-02A? ie what changed w/ the "A" flash? Thanks - Crash
 
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