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Not sure how bad this is but I changed the CPS last night. This was the condition of the previous CPS sensor. No chips in it but a bunch of crap stuck to it. Wiped it off with a rag and it’s mostly gray sludge. I didn’t feel and definitive particle. Almost like dust mixed with oil. I’ve reading the forums and people say this is somewhat normal but there aren’t any pictures to show what “normal” amount of buildup is. And I didn’t look at this sensor when I had the Alt cover off to see if it was there pre powder coat. There was some buildup the first time I removed the oil pan on the oil pan plug but this last time I drained the oil to pull the trans cover off the oil plug was clean

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That sensor dont look good. Is that metal? Or is that from powder coat residue?I'd be lookin at flushin that oil cooler also. Along with the radiator.
 

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Looks like metallic powder in thick oil putty to me - it's definitely being deposited and held in place due to to the magnetism of the sensor drawing it there - it's acting exactly the same as a magnetic drain plug pulling iron wear powder & particles out of the oil. To some degree that's gotta affect the sensors ability to detect actual crankshaft position and RPM which in turn affects the ECU's fuel and ignition curves - garbage in , garbage out - the question is to what degree ? and the answer is we're not sure - just inspect & clean the sensor area, install the new sensor, see if it helps -
 

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Discussion Starter #163
Looks like metallic powder in thick oil putty to me - it's definitely being deposited and held in place due to to the magnetism of the sensor drawing it there - it's acting exactly the same as a magnetic drain plug pulling iron wear powder & particles out of the oil. To some degree that's gotta affect the sensors ability to detect actual crankshaft position and RPM which in turn affects the ECU's fuel and ignition curves - garbage in , garbage out - the question is to what degree ? and the answer is we're not sure - just inspect & clean the sensor area, install the new sensor, see if it helps -
New sensor is installed. Got the oil pump back together last night. Plunger went in a little better when covered in oil but still doesn’t fall in like many have mentioned. It’s just a pita having to take the pipes off and on to test. I’ll probably call surdyke and see when the new pump will be in
My question for everyone is. With just the trans cover off how do I test compression?
 

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do yourself a favor blow out both spark plug bores of debris and pull both spark plugs. Look at their condition and while out try to turn the engine over by hand through the small alternator cover to check for binding - you'll need a deep sheet metal socket I got mine at ACE hardware, its a plumbing socket a fractional size that equates closely to the 34 or 35 MM hex on the crank. The engine should turn over by hand with the plugs out, won't be easy ( someone else here may know how much torque it takes ) but it should not be bound up, and listen for noises. If slightly warm ( or cold ) you can even do a cylinder compression test as well you'll need an adapter to fit the spark plug threads it's 12 MM and a compression test gauge screwed into it - charge the battery, REMOVE THE FUEL PUMP FUSE as Ron mentioned so you're not squirting fuel into the cylinders test one cylinder by turning the engine over with the starter, note pressure reading, charge battery again and do second cylinder then that's eliminated. If you have a misfiring cylinder and the other cylinder is dragging it along that could be a factor and result in what Ron sees on the logs.
 

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New sensor is installed. Got the oil pump back together last night. Plunger went in a little better when covered in oil but still doesn’t fall in like many have mentioned. It’s just a pita having to take the pipes off and on to test. I’ll probably call surdyke and see when the new pump will be in
My question for everyone is. With just the trans cover off how do I test compression?
In my world, 1130 cc you need to disable the exhaust decompressors. Pain in the ass as the covers will need to come off to do so. Oddly enough the 2002-04 1130cc makes no mention of this . This makes absolutely no sense to me as wtf good are they if don't effect cranking compression. It's possible the cranking rpms can be just enough to disable them. Other words have a fully charged battery for testing. Just in case the SM is correct with ignoring the de-compressor mechanism, just remove the fuel pump fuse, take plugs out and install the tester. Crank engine at wide open throttle until psi increase stops. Check the other cyl same way. Your range should be 203-247 psi with no more then 10 between them. On the 1250cc there are no de-compressors on the exhaust valves, so readings are actual. If on the 1130cc the de-compressors are in play when cranking, the pressure will be lower. Be warned though if trying to compare cyls. Due to cam timing, the front cyl will not produce the same reading as the rear, even if all else is perfect. A leak down test is far better if you can pull it off. Again, the engine needs to be locked up in a rotation spot where the de-compressors are not in play. With leak down test, you can identify where the leak is as well.
Leak rate should be no more then 10% based off of 100psi air pressure. Some use 80 psi as the test pressure but the % of leakage should not exceed 10%. That is a % where it's not ideal. 2-5% or less is the goal.
Ron
 

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As for the CPS. If the air gap closes from debris on the tip, the signal is altered and the ECM will try and compensate for this to some extent. How exactly, I don't know but there's a limit. Everything works off of voltages and math applied to it from different sources, sensors in this case for the end result for timing and fueling. Correct air gap is critical for the correct signal generation the ECM needs to see. Closing that small gap to start with, extends the magnetic field and developed voltage output. Sensors are a pain in the ass. Either they work of fail completely which makes life easy. It's the in between area that can drive one nuts to figure out.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #167
In my world, 1130 cc you need to disable the exhaust decompressors. Pain in the ass as the covers will need to come off to do so. Oddly enough the 2002-04 1130cc makes no mention of this . This makes absolutely no sense to me as wtf good are they if don't effect cranking compression. It's possible the cranking rpms can be just enough to disable them. Other words have a fully charged battery for testing. Just in case the SM is correct with ignoring the de-compressor mechanism, just remove the fuel pump fuse, take plugs out and install the tester. Crank engine at wide open throttle until psi increase stops. Check the other cyl same way. Your range should be 203-247 psi with no more then 10 between them. On the 1250cc there are no de-compressors on the exhaust valves, so readings are actual. If on the 1130cc the de-compressors are in play when cranking, the pressure will be lower. Be warned though if trying to compare cyls. Due to cam timing, the front cyl will not produce the same reading as the rear, even if all else is perfect. A leak down test is far better if you can pull it off. Again, the engine needs to be locked up in a rotation spot where the de-compressors are not in play. With leak down test, you can identify where the leak is as well.
Leak rate should be no more then 10% based off of 100psi air pressure. Some use 80 psi as the test pressure but the % of leakage should not exceed 10%. That is a % where it's not ideal. 2-5% or less is the goal.
Ron
so I need to get some type of air pressure gauge that will screw into the spark plug holes? Pull the fuel injector fuse, and then do I unplug the spark plug coils as well? Ill be honest I have no idea what you guys are talking about with a leak down test and the exhaust decompressors or where they are on the bike. Doing a compression test makes me nervous im going to do something stupid from lack of knowledge and damage the engine worse than it might possible already be. Is a compression test something that could be done once I get the new oil pump on and do a run test to see if any of the parts, CPS, MAP sensor, new battery, new oil pump, new plugs, fixes my problem?
 

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so I need to get some type of air pressure gauge that will screw into the spark plug holes? Pull the fuel injector fuse, and then do I unplug the spark plug coils as well? Ill be honest I have no idea what you guys are talking about with a leak down test and the exhaust decompressors or where they are on the bike. Doing a compression test makes me nervous im going to do something stupid from lack of knowledge and damage the engine worse than it might possible already be. Is a compression test something that could be done once I get the new oil pump on and do a run test to see if any of the parts, CPS, MAP sensor, new battery, new oil pump, new plugs, fixes my problem?
Rent a compression tester that has the same size fitting as the spark plug. Pull both plugs out of engine. Coils will be unplugged anyway so no harm will come to them. Just set them aside for testing. There might be some codes that you need to clear after but easy peasy with the PV unit. Forget the compression releases for now. Let's assume the starter will crank the engine fast enough they will move out of the way and full compression will show up. SM makes no mention of them causing a problem for normal compression testing so let's assume it will be fine. Yes, either fuse for fuel pump or injectors removal is fine. This will prevent you from throwing fuel into the cyls, should you forget to go full throttle. Screw the tester in, go wide open on throttle, and crank engine until it maxes out on the psi. Repeat on the other cyl and compare readings. The test can be done once all the other stuff is bolted on, if nothing else the oil pump for sure. Make sure you coat the pump innards with oil or assembly lube so it primes up fast before bolting it on. Some use Vaseline for that. STP, Lucas oil stabilizer or similar consistency lubes work good for that too. The compression test is best done on at least a warm engine and oil has gotten into the bores and rings. Doesn't need to be hot, just run a tad prior but if cold is what you need to do at 3AM , that's fine also. Should be very little difference, if any between the two temps on a healthy engine.
Ron
 

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All makes sense Ron although on my '06 1130 the front cylinder compression reading is Low 113, Mid 125, Upper 137 PSI while the Rear is as you say Low 203, Mid 225, Upper 247 PSI on the compression gauge reading - the claim is the timing of the A.C.R. de-compressors is different from front to rear camshafts. Lapoza don't try the complicated leak down test unless the quick compression test indicates you've got a problem - then it'll have to be done to determine the cause of the low compression. If you don't have the 12mm adapter or the gauge they're pretty cheap to order most compression gauges available at good auto parts store I had to order the 12mm adapter and it was hard to find but got one on e bay or thru Summit Racing I think - you could also, yes - save the compression test until later if your other repairs and replacements don't get you to the root problem. It's not mandatory now but recommended if you've got the plugs out -
 

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All makes sense Ron although on my '06 1130 the front cylinder compression reading is Low 113, Mid 125, Upper 137 PSI while the Rear is as you say Low 203, Mid 225, Upper 247 PSI on the compression gauge reading - the claim is the timing of the A.C.R. de-compressors is different from front to rear camshafts. Lapoza don't try the complicated leak down test unless the quick compression test indicates you've got a problem - then it'll have to be done to determine the cause of the low compression. If you don't have the 12mm adapter or the gauge they're pretty cheap to order most compression gauges available at good auto parts store I had to order the 12mm adapter and it was hard to find but got one on e bay or thru Summit Racing I think - you could also, yes - save the compression test until later if your other repairs and replacements don't get you to the root problem. It's not mandatory now but recommended if you've got the plugs out -
Yes, the cam timing degrees and comp release effects the front cyl with a lower reading when the releases are working. With the releases not in play, both cyls should be the same +/- tolerance. How the SM can claim a decent compression check without disabling those damn things is beyond me unless the engine can eventually spin fast enough once the starter gets it going to have them disengage to get a true reading. I just don't see it as it would take about 250-500 rpm for that. Glad the 1250 don't use that shit. Being the cheap asses HD is, they went with a bigger battery and more oomph to power it through without the need for compression releases.
Ron
 

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Ron I believe what H-D's done is they took a healthy 1130c engine with it's A.C.R. operational, did a starter spin compression test on it to see what it read using a normal gauge and used that as a correction for the low, mid and upper readings for the 1130cc's maintenance manuals. Yea no way enough starter speed to disengage ACR so it is what it is on an 1130cc, just a quick compression check that would require a more involved leak down test anyway if an owner found a low cylinder. Funny they eliminated the TDC pin on the 1250cc cases but I guess that would work to hold the crank for only one cylinder anyway ? ( Ignition Timing Pin ) And yea, that's why I got the big LiFePo battery to start my bike when it becomes a 1250cc+ with Jones Cams & no A.C.R. - I saw that coming thanks to all you guys here on the site - (y);)
 

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Ron I believe what H-D's done is they took a healthy 1130c engine with it's A.C.R. operational, did a starter spin compression test on it to see what it read using a normal gauge and used that as a correction for the low, mid and upper readings for the 1130cc's maintenance manuals. Yea no way enough starter speed to disengage ACR so it is what it is on an 1130cc, just a quick compression check that would require a more involved leak down test anyway if an owner found a low cylinder. Funny they eliminated the TDC pin on the 1250cc cases but I guess that would work to hold the crank for only one cylinder anyway ? ( Ignition Timing Pin ) And yea, that's why I got the big LiFePo battery to start my bike when it becomes a 1250cc+ with Jones Cams & no A.C.R. - I saw that coming thanks to all you guys here on the site - (y);)
The problem with that process is the release depresses the valve X amount. That amount varies with how much bucket to valve clearance there is. This skews the psi ratings up or down from the SM amounts.
Ron
 

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Idk, all this talk about compression and leak down. It starts right up. Its not smoking or using oil I would assume. So I would not think these test would not prove much. It seems to shut down when it gets hot. Although the engine temp light is not on. Which is puzzling.So since this started after the work was performed. Looking at the gunk in oil. Makes one wonder what the temp sensor tip looks like. This thing may not be able to adjust itself for such high cylinder temps. (Which I am guessing). I really feel a system flush is necessary , as I have mentioned and its the simplest way to go since we know foreign particles were introduced into cooling and oil. Because the fact is the oil pressure and coolant temps are affected. The grit from the powder coat is what's affecting the oil pump and the same issue may well be the issue in the cooling system. If the temp sensor is damaged it may not read the correct temp. But that may not be totally correct since the fans are coming on.I know he said he felt the temp off the radiator. But more measurements were needed at radiator across the core. Because although he felt heat does not necessarily mean the whole radiator is being used.Since the oil pump was not damaged internally, the internals of the engine are probably ok. I think its getting to hot. And out of operating range.
 

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Discussion Starter #174
Idk, all this talk about compression and leak down. It starts right up. Its not smoking or using oil I would assume. So I would not think these test would not prove much. It seems to shut down when it gets hot. Although the engine temp light is not on. Which is puzzling.So since this started after the work was performed. Looking at the gunk in oil. Makes one wonder what the temp sensor tip looks like. This thing may not be able to adjust itself for such high cylinder temps. (Which I am guessing). I really feel a system flush is necessary , as I have mentioned and its the simplest way to go since we know foreign particles were introduced into cooling and oil. Because the fact is the oil pressure and coolant temps are affected. The grit from the powder coat is what's affecting the oil pump and the same issue may well be the issue in the cooling system. If the temp sensor is damaged it may not read the correct temp. But that may not be totally correct since the fans are coming on.I know he said he felt the temp off the radiator. But more measurements were needed at radiator across the core. Because although he felt heat does not necessarily mean the whole radiator is being used.Since the oil pump was not damaged internally, the internals of the engine are probably ok. I think its getting to hot. And out of operating range.
I have everything off the top of the engine, ill pull the Engine temp sensor as well
 

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I have everything off the top of the engine, ill pull the Engine temp sensor as well
It (temp sensor) was behaving normally, in the PV log. Fans came on at the correct temp but would not turn off due to the fact they wouldn't bring the temps back down. Did you ever do an ambient check off of the PV and room thermometer? The over temp light will come on at about 243-245 so you might not have hit the temp. Again, temp sensor triggers this light. Only thing that can kill the engine from heat is expansion of an electrical component. CPS is a likely suspect for that. Overheating , generally is caused from the cooling system components or a mixture so lean, it overpowers the coolant system's ability to cool it down. Another thing that will do this is running it in a closed area. Heat from behind the rad gets sucked back in the front and it can't keep up. I've seen that once on my bike, even though the big door was open. It was a stupid hot humid day, however. As soon as I back it out, the fans cooled it down to 208 and the fans shut off.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter #176
It (temp sensor) was behaving normally, in the PV log. Fans came on at the correct temp but would not turn off due to the fact they wouldn't bring the temps back down. Did you ever do an ambient check off of the PV and room thermometer? The over temp light will come on at about 243-245 so you might not have hit the temp. Again, temp sensor triggers this light. Only thing that can kill the engine from heat is expansion of an electrical component. CPS is a likely suspect for that. Overheating , generally is caused from the cooling system components or a mixture so lean, it overpowers the coolant system's ability to cool it down. Another thing that will do this is running it in a closed area. Heat from behind the rad gets sucked back in the front and it can't keep up. I've seen that once on my bike, even though the big door was open. It was a stupid hot humid day, however. As soon as I back it out, the fans cooled it down to 208 and the fans shut off.
Ron
No the temp check will be done once I get it all put back together prior to starting it.

Surdyke shipped the oil pump today so I should have it next week, as well as the new throttle assembly. So hopefully in a weeks time I am back in the troubleshooting. I did find a used ECM from the person on eBay that I bought the throttle body assembly from, thinking of picking it up to have but don't know if it would be a waste of money, I suppose I could buy it and if I still have issues swap ECM's and see if the problem goes away prior to doing any tunes. If not I could always just resell it on eBay
 

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No the temp check will be done once I get it all put back together prior to starting it.

Surdyke shipped the oil pump today so I should have it next week, as well as the new throttle assembly. So hopefully in a weeks time I am back in the troubleshooting. I did find a used ECM from the person on eBay that I bought the throttle body assembly from, thinking of picking it up to have but don't know if it would be a waste of money, I suppose I could buy it and if I still have issues swap ECM's and see if the problem goes away prior to doing any tunes. If not I could always just resell it on eBay
A different ECM will need to be programmed or married to the TSSM or it won't run. Not a simple plug and play. You can do it at home, but it is a real pain in the ass to do.
Ron
 

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Yea I wouldn't kill myself trying to do a compression check at this point it's not absolutely necessary but would have been nice to know when the plugs were out - this is clearly a which came first scenario - is the radiator & cooling system defective or just reacting to a defect in ignition timing and/or fueling that's building the heat ? ( Even though the overheat lights not coming on ) That would be my guess - since this happened during a maintenance event I still think it was somehow related to that action. Some blasting powder may have gone thru the oil system but the nicks on the O/P plunger indicate something larger caused them unless the powder coat guy is actually SAND blasting not Glass Bead blasting. Flushing the radiator is a good idea, but I can't see where there could have been enough particles to actually block all the passages in that radiator - no way unless a rag was plugging one of the hoses - or got pumped to the radiator - but Lapoza says no, he just covered the bike with a sheet. So I'd install new oil pump, crank it up and see if any actions recently taken have fixed the root problem - if so stand down on the ECM, if not order it as not too many items are left. Be sure coolant is circulating as well - if it's still not running correctly and it dies when it warms up I'd check across radiator temps like krRob said then remove the coolant return hose to the engine start it for a moment and be sure it's pumping coolant fluid into a pail at that point. If it's not actually overheating it must be circulating coolant the question is how much -
 

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Have you excluded bad injector possibility? Even there is good psi in the fuel rail injectors might behave badly. Cleaning the tip does not help if it is clogged inside.
 
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