Harley Davidson V-Rod Forum banner

141 - 160 of 188 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
That's the key krRob - all of a sudden he's having these issues. He found no metal in the oil filter or magnet so that's good nothing catastrophic so far. Those picks in the plunger could have been caused by sand / abrasive particles as well as metal particles I would think, with it moving up & down and rocking on the silica it ate a little hole thru the coating into the plunger - but I still don't see how more accurate oil pressure completely fixes this engine. Yes, this O/P needs to be remedied and eliminated as another hurdle on the way to finding the root cause but something else is going on as well. Need to pull spark plugs inspect,check compression, check engine for binding / rotational friction, and then continue with sensor replacement etc. as planned - sooner or later the root problem will be found. (y);)
Saw a slight indication of possible binding. Pure speculation at this point. In an EFI system the IAC controls idle. I saw the steps climb as it tried to maintain set calibration idle rpm. This effect could be binding slowing the engine or the mixture so bad it struggled to run. Both will cause an IAC step increase in the log I saw. Don't know exactly which caused it but generally the IAC has a drop in steps as the engine heats up. This is truly a unique set of problems with this bike. We won't really know until some of the possibles have been addressed, or at least ruled out. The hot restart in the vid also points to extra drag to turn the hot engine over. Binding, or weak battery or limiter slip are all possibles. I would do a full charge on the battery and do a load test to at least rule that out.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #142
New Oil Pump is on order, no one has it in stock, won't be in until Aug 5 or so, so this project is on hold for awhile
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,607 Posts
Lapoza you could always clean up that oil pump plunger with some 600 emery cloth ( tightly wrapped around a round phillips screwdriver shank ) so only the high spots are gently sanded off then clean, lube, reassemble the pump ( be sure plunger slides on it's own in the bore ) reinstall side cover and continue the troubleshooting to be sure the engine is not binding up - if it is you've got bigger problems and if not you've got other problems on your hands other than that oil pump, which the new one might not even show up for a month or even much longer if no one's got it in stock. If you really want it sooner have a HD dealer do a parts net search for it they'll give you a list of dealers that show it on the shelf - it'll be the $ 260 price most likely the 15 % $ 39 more but you'll get it much quicker. Otherwise you could keep it on order and while you wait go ahead and continue troubleshooting with the current pump. Just a thought to keep the heat on the resolution of the root problem - no pun intended. (y) :)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
New Oil Pump is on order, no one has it in stock, won't be in until Aug 5 or so, so this project is on hold for awhile
That's fine. One other test I'd like you to rig up is have the fuel pressure gauge hooked up should it stall again after all the work is done. Do a cold to stall condition check. There is a slight possible the pump might be failing after it's run for a while. No codes will show up on this part and the only way to rule it out is to monitor the psi during a stall event or just prior to it. I know you checked the psi before but seems a more complete test is needed to completely rule out the pump or possible failing intermittent relay from heat. Just one more thing, on the already long list.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
That's fine. One other test I'd like you to rig up is have the fuel pressure gauge hooked up should it stall again after all the work is done. Do a cold to stall condition check. There is a slight possible the pump might be failing after it's run for a while. No codes will show up on this part and the only way to rule it out is to monitor the psi during a stall event or just prior to it. I know you checked the psi before but seems a more complete test is needed to completely rule out the pump or possible failing intermittent relay from heat. Just one more thing, on the already long list.
Ron
Yeah if he dont look inside that pump, it all dont matter internal engine wise.Because the inside of pump will tell him what if anything went thru engine.Well he did say filter was ok. And if insides are ok. I would fix that pump.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,607 Posts
krRob yea I agree carefully inspect & fix this oil pump it obviously worked put out more than 100 psi at times he's had the sump off numerous times with no evidence of metal chunks or chips in there so there's that positive thing - also with it off a guy can look up thru the crank oil drain window in the case and probably see rod and main bearing areas for any sign of obvious distress but the sumps on now so I would get it running again with this pump & continue troubleshooting - as far as the engine dying yea if it's starting to die and you can keep it running by raising the throttle some it's not the fuel pump it's something else like Ron said the stepping effect was trying to keep it running but may not have been enough fast enough. A gauge on the fuel line would be great and lack of fuel pressure would make it run lean as well as an ECU malfunction so yea, another way to peel back the onion. That would be the time to check engine for binding right after it shut itself off as well, but the starter may be doing that function somewhat now if it's got a new battery and I think Lapoza said he replaced it -
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #148
So I’ve sanded the plunger with emery cloth. I don’t feel any burs at all on it except the three rings engraved towards the top. I did notice that the oil inlet hole in the pump is not round but oval shaped. Looks not natural or machines. I don’t know if it’s suppose to look like this or not. I’ve taken a video of the plunger going in the pump and another of the G heat condition (which I think is good)
605086
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #149
Here is the video of inserting the plunger. It definitely doesn’t just fall in or out

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #150
Here is the video of the oil pump drive gear. I don’t think from what I see there was a problem with this part of the pump

I did order a new oil pump and it should be here first week of august. I don’t see the point of reinstalling everything to do more testing until the new pump arrives. I’m going to clean everything up. Probably do the compression test as well. Change the plugs. Order a new air filter. Change the crank sensor and get the rest of the bike put back together. Probably remove the radiator as well and flush that out.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #151
krRob yea I agree carefully inspect & fix this oil pump it obviously worked put out more than 100 psi at times he's had the sump off numerous times with no evidence of metal chunks or chips in there so there's that positive thing - also with it off a guy can look up thru the crank oil drain window in the case and probably see rod and main bearing areas for any sign of obvious distress but the sumps on now so I would get it running again with this pump & continue troubleshooting - as far as well as an ECU malfunction so yea, another way to peel back the onion. That would be the time to check engine for binding right after it shut itself off as well, but the starter may be doing that function somewhat now if it's got a new battery and I think Lapoza said he replaced it -
move thought about getting a new ECU but if I do that I would like to get a 2008 or newer so I can add O2 ports for the PV. But I’m assuming I would have to remove the entire harness and install a new one as well? I don’t know where I could get an ECU for testing purposes either.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,181 Posts
move thought about getting a new ECU but if I do that I would like to get a 2008 or newer so I can add O2 ports for the PV. But I’m assuming I would have to remove the entire harness and install a new one as well? I don’t know where I could get an ECU for testing purposes either.
If your ECM pans out ok, go with Target Tune with the PV instead of adding all the extra wiring for sensors. Don't know what to make of that hole in the pump but it is a casting so might be normal. The outer dia of the bore where it seals for idle pressures seems to look smooth. I've not looked into one before but if it started out round, there was some serious erosion took place. This is highly unlikely as there would be tell tail signs on the bottom face of the relief valve also . Relief valve, as you see has issues but can be cleaned up to be free but like you say, you have a new pump coming. As for testing the ECM, there really isn't a direct test. It's an elimination process for all the components that feed into it. If each one passes the test, the last point is the ECM as the cause. I don't think this is the case for you at this point.
Ron
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
739 Posts
Man clean that plunger and the bore and put it back together. Once u clean it, apply a little lube and it will fall out under its own weight. No need to purchase another pump. Owell to late now I guess.
 

·
The Hawk
Joined
·
3,779 Posts
My bet is that most of the issues were caused by the pressure relief valve in the oil pump not working resulting in the engine bumping up against hydraulic lock as the additional oil had no place to go. The bearings, cams, piston cooling jets, etc will only bleed off so much pressure. That’s what was restricting the engine to 4000 rpm, and adding heat as the compressed oil will heat up a lot. The tune might be off some but fix that oil pump and it wii be much better.

If you still need an ECM after the oil pump is replaced I have on sitting on the shelf.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,607 Posts
That makes perfect sense Elgavilan but I'd think that would take like 250 PSI or something higher - his was high but at the time not high enough to be hydraulic locking the engine - I agree fix the pump let's see what we got - gotta peel back the onion and have known good items to find the root problem. I'm still trying to connect it to something he did during the cover R&R unless a big chunk of something got overlooked and jammed the pump right at startup - me I couldn't stand the wait I'd finish the cleanup of the pump bore & plunger and pop it together while I waited for the new pump see if it fixed it - but that's just me, I'm Mr. Impatient. (y);)
 

·
The Hawk
Joined
·
3,779 Posts
Most automotive oil pressure gauges will only go to 100 psi, a few will go to 150 psi.

Sent from my LM-G820 using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,607 Posts
Yea, true - Lapoza said it went above 100 psi cold but when it died was less than 20 psi so clearly the accuracy of the O/P was not right but it doesn't seem low or high enough to snub down or stop an engine from accelerating ( while it's making 30 - 40 hp ) above 3000 or 4000 RPM - yea if it heated up suddenly and O/P was way up to a couple hundred psi I get it - it all could conspire to bring the engine RPM down I just don't see the O/P being high enough to keep the engine from revving up beyond 3-4 K RPM before it gets hot - also if there was that much back pressure on the pump you'd think there would be some gear wear or even snap something on the drive side of the pump the stress on those parts would be through the roof - even blow a line, hose or oil cooler with that kinda pressure.and a couple hundred psi on the valve chain tensioner would really be binding up the chains TIGHT - Not good, I'd have that pump cleaned up and back in there just to find out WTF is going on, and whether there is resolution with the oil pump metering pressure properly or more problems that are still hidden to find out about - this is interesting if nothing else !
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #158
Yea, true - Lapoza said it went above 100 psi cold but when it died was less than 20 psi so clearly the accuracy of the O/P was not right but it doesn't seem low or high enough to snub down or stop an engine from accelerating ( while it's making 30 - 40 hp ) above 3000 or 4000 RPM - yea if it heated up suddenly and O/P was way up to a couple hundred psi I get it - it all could conspire to bring the engine RPM down I just don't see the O/P being high enough to keep the engine from revving up beyond 3-4 K RPM before it gets hot - also if there was that much back pressure on the pump you'd think there would be some gear wear or even snap something on the drive side of the pump the stress on those parts would be through the roof - even blow a line, hose or oil cooler with that kinda pressure.and a couple hundred psi on the valve chain tensioner would really be binding up the chains TIGHT - Not good, I'd have that pump cleaned up and back in there just to find out WTF is going on, and whether there is resolution with the oil pump metering pressure properly or more problems that are still hidden to find out about - this is interesting if nothing else !
The issue im having is there are no burrs or high spots on the plunger that would prevent it from going smoothly into the pump, yet it still binds up, so that is making me thing there is an issue in the channel where the relief plunger goes and I think I would just screw things up. I don't know a way to bore that channel out and my fingers aren't long enough or small enough to feel all the way down and see what its hitting, I can't see anything with my eyes obvious enough to cause it to stick. Had I bought a used pump on eBay instead of a new 4 lobe I could slap it in there real quick. I am impatient as well but im going to have to play the waiting game for another week.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
62 Posts
Discussion Starter #159
Not sure how bad this is but I changed the CPS last night. This was the condition of the previous CPS sensor. No chips in it but a bunch of crap stuck to it. Wiped it off with a rag and it’s mostly gray sludge. I didn’t feel and definitive particle. Almost like dust mixed with oil. I’ve reading the forums and people say this is somewhat normal but there aren’t any pictures to show what “normal” amount of buildup is. And I didn’t look at this sensor when I had the Alt cover off to see if it was there pre powder coat. There was some buildup the first time I removed the oil pan on the oil pan plug but this last time I drained the oil to pull the trans cover off the oil plug was clean

605122

605123
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,607 Posts
Check the plunger diameter with a micrometer to be sure it doesn't still have a high spot on it - if so carefully sand it down till it's gone - like krRob mentioned lube the plunger and try inserting it again to see if it's free and if you can spin it - everything has tolerances but yes there could be nicks or damage in the bore that match the plunger - if so you can use blueprint blue or heavy magic marker on a dry plunger & put it in the bore insert it just to where it binds and it may transfer the blue ink or black marker off the plunger to the bore, and you may be able to correct it. Yea if it's only a week to the new pump I'd wait too but I just don't have confidence in parts delivery times from Surdyke or HD guess you could check progress if it's a few weeks or a month I'd rework what you got to keep the project going while you wait. Yea, that metallic oil putty on the CPS is certainly not ideal for a magnetic pickup devise - I don't think that would be enough to confuse it's readings to the ECU but maybe a bit - someone here probably knows but the new sensor will eliminate that. All good things you're finding here, hopefully success is around the corner -
 
141 - 160 of 188 Posts
Top