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Discussion Starter #181
Have you excluded bad injector possibility? Even there is good psi in the fuel rail injectors might behave badly. Cleaning the tip does not help if it is clogged inside.
I hooked them up to carb cleaner through a pressurized line and then applied voltage, both sprayed nice pattern.
 

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I hooked them up to carb cleaner through a pressurized line and then applied voltage, both sprayed nice pattern.
Ok. At least that ensures that they are not completely clogged but injectors are PWM driven by the ECM and 100% correct operation can be verified only with suitable flow bench. However it does not sound that the problem is there.

Setting up additional lambda meter is bit hard from the open exhaust end to show correct values but maybe doable.
 

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Again guys this problem started at a maintenance event with the R & R of the covers -- unless it's an amazing co-incidental failure of something completely unrelated to that I'm still thinking something was damaged, disturbed, or introduced into the oil or fuel that caused the root problem. There is evidence of oil pump plunger piston damage, soon to be replaced, so hopefully that will peel back the onion another layer. Hopefully the oil spray jets for the pistons aren't clogged like krRob says that would be a bitch. I keep thinking about the smoking battery terminal problems he had and the possible effect on the operating brains in the ECM but hopefully the new sensors will rule that in or out - sounds like a difficult operation to marry another ECM to the engine like Ron says but that might be the fastest way forward if the oil pump & sensors don't fix it - Stay Tuned -
 

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Discussion Starter #184
New oil pump came in today from Surdyke. I think I remember someone saying to disassemble it and lube it internally before installing but I can't find the post. Anyway tonight I plan on installing that but I still have a broken bolt in my throttle assembly where the IAC bolts snapped off, and the used one I bought off of eBay has a bolt snapped in it as well that I didn't see in the crappy pictures they had. Hopefully I can test it again by the weekend. Going to go slow and be meticulous to make sure I don't forget to attach something when re assembling
 

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Lapoza - I don't think you would need to disassemble the new oil pump, that was for the old pump that you had apart before reassembling it - with the new pump just fill it with engine oil or engine oil & assembly lube mix - also you can turn the engine over with the starter and the fuel pump fuse out ( to allow it to turn over without it starting ) after install to prime & to pre-lube the pump and engine - not sure what to do about bolt snapped off others here probably have experience with that little problem - keep up the good work !
 

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Discussion Starter #186
Lapoza - I don't think you would need to disassemble the new oil pump, that was for the old pump that you had apart before reassembling it - with the new pump just fill it with engine oil or engine oil & assembly lube mix - also you can turn the engine over with the starter and the fuel pump fuse out ( to allow it to turn over without it starting ) after install to prime & to pre-lube the pump and engine - not sure what to do about bolt snapped off others here probably have experience with that little problem - keep up the good work !
I've got some bolt extractors, just wish I had noticed it before I spend $40 on one to show up with the same problem I had :/
 

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I've got some bolt extractors, just wish I had noticed it before I spend $40 on one to show up with the same problem I had :/
Be careful with the extractors. Some have snapped them off in the screw too. Lots of heat on the boss areas of the tb casting where the screws go in is a must.
Ron
 

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New oil pump came in today from Surdyke. I think I remember someone saying to disassemble it and lube it internally before installing but I can't find the post. Anyway tonight I plan on installing that but I still have a broken bolt in my throttle assembly where the IAC bolts snapped off, and the used one I bought off of eBay has a bolt snapped in it as well that I didn't see in the crappy pictures they had. Hopefully I can test it again by the weekend. Going to go slow and be meticulous to make sure I don't forget to attach something when re assembling
If u can get them out w/ extractor, that would be great. If not drill out and tap new threads. Dont think there is enough room for heli coil. So drill carefully. Aluminum is easy to tap. Just have to becareful drilling into steel screw and being thrown off center.
 

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Discussion Starter #189
Well I got the new oil pump on tonight, new spark plugs, new MAP sensor, New battery, new CPS sensor. new throttle body, Set the Throttle sensor voltage to .47 at idle. Started the bike up and oil pressure climbed to 80 psi. Stayed there but the bike was fluctuating idle from 1000-1300 RPM. Probably needs an idle adjustment. After about a minute it died from what I am guessing is low idle speed. I had the fuel gauge on it the whole time and I never saw the fuel pressure lower below 55psi. I checked Engine temp and AIT temp and both were 75 in my shop before starting the bike. Oil pump came from Harley pre lubed internally so I didn't disassemble it prior to install.

My brother came to the shop and the goal was to ride it to his house which is half a mile from my shop. Rode it there and didn't really get on it but it seemed to be running a lot better. Once I got to his house I went around the block one time and got it up to 4000 RPM and it still seemed sluggish but improved from before. So I decided to have him follow me and I was going to take it back to my house which is about .7 miles away. Goal was to keep it below 30MPH and not get on it at all. Got on the side street with him following me and I made it to second gear, and I think as soon as I shifted to third and let off the clutch or slightly after the bike straight up died, back tire locked up and it started fish tailing. Pulled the clutch in as soon as I could and coasted to a stop. Tried to restart the bike and it just went dead and didn't even attempt to start, lights come back on after I let off the start button. So unfortunately when I tried to restart the bike I didn't hit end log, not sure if I let it sit long enough to capture what happened before I tried to restart it or not, but when I tried to restart it it cycled power to the PV.

Luckily I was close to his house so I started doing the walk of shame back and had about 4 cop cars surrounding me in less than 3 minutes. someone on the street had heard the tire lock up and thought I wrecked, then saw me pushing and called the cops. 4 am here but im thinking at this point with everything ive replaced and no fix to any of the issues that the engine is probably bad. Super bummed at the moment, not sure what to try next, ill download the logs tomorrow and send to Ron hopefully he sees something, but I did check the codes when I got it back to my brothers and there are none in the log or historic.
 

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Well I got the new oil pump on tonight, new spark plugs, new MAP sensor, New battery, new CPS sensor. new throttle body, Set the Throttle sensor voltage to .47 at idle. Started the bike up and oil pressure climbed to 80 psi. Stayed there but the bike was fluctuating idle from 1000-1300 RPM. Probably needs an idle adjustment. After about a minute it died from what I am guessing is low idle speed. I had the fuel gauge on it the whole time and I never saw the fuel pressure lower below 55psi. I checked Engine temp and AIT temp and both were 75 in my shop before starting the bike. Oil pump came from Harley pre lubed internally so I didn't disassemble it prior to install.

My brother came to the shop and the goal was to ride it to his house which is half a mile from my shop. Rode it there and didn't really get on it but it seemed to be running a lot better. Once I got to his house I went around the block one time and got it up to 4000 RPM and it still seemed sluggish but improved from before. So I decided to have him follow me and I was going to take it back to my house which is about .7 miles away. Goal was to keep it below 30MPH and not get on it at all. Got on the side street with him following me and I made it to second gear, and I think as soon as I shifted to third and let off the clutch or slightly after the bike straight up died, back tire locked up and it started fish tailing. Pulled the clutch in as soon as I could and coasted to a stop. Tried to restart the bike and it just went dead and didn't even attempt to start, lights come back on after I let off the start button. So unfortunately when I tried to restart the bike I didn't hit end log, not sure if I let it sit long enough to capture what happened before I tried to restart it or not, but when I tried to restart it it cycled power to the PV.

Luckily I was close to his house so I started doing the walk of shame back and had about 4 cop cars surrounding me in less than 3 minutes. someone on the street had heard the tire lock up and thought I wrecked, then saw me pushing and called the cops. 4 am here but im thinking at this point with everything ive replaced and no fix to any of the issues that the engine is probably bad. Super bummed at the moment, not sure what to try next, ill download the logs tomorrow and send to Ron hopefully he sees something, but I did check the codes when I got it back to my brothers and there are none in the log or historic.
Sadly, this is sounding more and more like a spun rod bearing. It didn't just stall but froze up enough to lock the rear tire. Stall only , the tire would still drive the engine over, especially 3rd gear. I can look at the log but it really is most likely engine internals. Good job on getting on the clutch, right away. I suspect, if you pull the pan off, the rods will have that blue tinge to them from high heat. The 80 psi on the stock 4 lobe seems high and wonder about some form of blockage. By chance, you didn't use common paper towels when you cleaned up the components after PC the parts? Those unseen fibers after the fact tend to reknit themselves in the system causing a possible blockage. I used them once in my aircraft engine rebuild and when I cut the filter open, it looked like they were trying to knit a sweater in there. I never used them again after seeing that. I brought this up as the root cause , still has not been determined, post PC the covers. Oh, the log will self end. The recycle part was from the high starter load causing a drop below 9v in the system. The ECM will recycle itself in those conditions. Similar to turning the key on.
Ron
 

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Well I got the new oil pump on tonight, new spark plugs, new MAP sensor, New battery, new CPS sensor. new throttle body, Set the Throttle sensor voltage to .47 at idle. Started the bike up and oil pressure climbed to 80 psi. Stayed there but the bike was fluctuating idle from 1000-1300 RPM. Probably needs an idle adjustment. After about a minute it died from what I am guessing is low idle speed. I had the fuel gauge on it the whole time and I never saw the fuel pressure lower below 55psi. I checked Engine temp and AIT temp and both were 75 in my shop before starting the bike. Oil pump came from Harley pre lubed internally so I didn't disassemble it prior to install.

My brother came to the shop and the goal was to ride it to his house which is half a mile from my shop. Rode it there and didn't really get on it but it seemed to be running a lot better. Once I got to his house I went around the block one time and got it up to 4000 RPM and it still seemed sluggish but improved from before. So I decided to have him follow me and I was going to take it back to my house which is about .7 miles away. Goal was to keep it below 30MPH and not get on it at all. Got on the side street with him following me and I made it to second gear, and I think as soon as I shifted to third and let off the clutch or slightly after the bike straight up died, back tire locked up and it started fish tailing. Pulled the clutch in as soon as I could and coasted to a stop. Tried to restart the bike and it just went dead and didn't even attempt to start, lights come back on after I let off the start button. So unfortunately when I tried to restart the bike I didn't hit end log, not sure if I let it sit long enough to capture what happened before I tried to restart it or not, but when I tried to restart it it cycled power to the PV.

Luckily I was close to his house so I started doing the walk of shame back and had about 4 cop cars surrounding me in less than 3 minutes. someone on the street had heard the tire lock up and thought I wrecked, then saw me pushing and called the cops. 4 am here but im thinking at this point with everything ive replaced and no fix to any of the issues that the engine is probably bad. Super bummed at the moment, not sure what to try next, ill download the logs tomorrow and send to Ron hopefully he sees something, but I did check the codes when I got it back to my brothers and there are none in the log or historic.
Hmmmm did u notice if oil light was coming on before lockup? But since you did not see any real debris in oil filter and oil. Bearings should have shown some material in oil or filter. If the piston was dragging on cylinder it would probably not show up much in oil. But should have heard a piston slap. And u wont see a loss in oil pressure. I still would think the piston has seized in bore from no piston oil cooling. I remember when mines locked up. It was losing oil pressure first,and it was the rod bearings. Unless there was trash in the bearing material. You should have heard a rod knock before u tried to ride it. Unlike w/ me I was rolling down the hiway at speed and the oil pressure started fluctuating and the bike went slower and slower and locked up. All this just leads to contamination sad to say. Of course the rod bearings are easier to check. I just was going off the engine temps being pretty warm in cylinder heads. Which could possibly mean little or no piston lubrication and cooling. Because I just find it strange how it started and then it would die. Rod bearings dont generally do that. Acts like piston sticking and cooling down and freeing up. Because the coolant around the piston sleeves will not allow sleeve to expand relative to piston expansion due to lack of cooling. Anyway it sounds right in theory 😁. This is why I was against replacing oil pump. Because u risk trashing it out.If u replace engine flush oil cooler and radiator.
 

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Discussion Starter #192
Hmmmm did u notice if oil light was coming on before lockup? But since you did not see any real debris in oil filter and oil. Bearings should have shown some material in oil or filter. If the piston was dragging on cylinder it would probably not show up much in oil. But should have heard a piston slap. And u wont see a loss in oil pressure. I still would think the piston has seized in bore from no piston oil cooling. I remember when mines locked up. It was losing oil pressure first,and it was the rod bearings. Unless there was trash in the bearing material. You should have heard a rod knock before u tried to ride it. Unlike w/ me I was rolling down the hiway at speed and the oil pressure started fluctuating and the bike went slower and slower and locked up. All this just leads to contamination sad to say. Of course the rod bearings are easier to check. I just was going off the engine temps being pretty warm in cylinder heads. Which could possibly mean little or no piston lubrication and cooling. Because I just find it strange how it started and then it would die. Rod bearings dont generally do that. Acts like piston sticking and cooling down and freeing up. Because the coolant around the piston sleeves will not allow sleeve to expand relative to piston expansion due to lack of cooling. Anyway it sounds right in theory 😁. This is why I was against replacing oil pump. Because u risk trashing it out.If u replace engine flush oil cooler and radiator.
what you said makes sense actually. I did hear what sounded like a rattle while I was riding it, right before it died. sounded like something was loose on the front left side of the engine or near it. could have been piston or valve as you say. Since at this point I wouldn't dare ride it again in its current condition I could start it tomorrow and let it warm up to see if the noise comes back. I have to admit im a little uneducated on what a piston slap would sound like. It was flat out not going to restart this time which if a piston was stuck in the cylinder would explain it and why it starts back up after it cools down. The question is if this is indeed what is wrong with it, how hard would that be to fix if possible? As cheap as a used engine is and how fast it would be to change compared to pulling the engine and then trying to dig into it, a used engine is my best shot at still being able to ride at least a little bit before the cold weather and snow get here. I just have no education at all at working on the internal of engines. I watched a Harley video today of the disassembly and repair of the lower end of the VROD engine and, it looks insanely time consuming and way above my skillset, I am more of an electrical expert. Simple mechanical stuff I can handle but im afraid I would spend countless hours trying to break the engine apart to see the condition and then do something wrong on reassembly and just waste a lot of time.

If it is cylinder lubrication as the problem, what would have caused that to happen based off of what I had initially done to the bike. If a small amount of powder coating residue did indeed get into the oil system how would that have affected the cylinder lube part of the engine and not the crank bearings?

unfortunately when I hooked up the oil gauge, I did not wire up the light for it as I was just trying to see the oil pressure, and I was more looking at the road and RPMS so I don't recall the oil light coming on at all when it happened. Not going to lie I thought for sure I was going down and had I not pulled the clutch in I would have went down, that back tire was locked up solid. I drove the road today as I was sure I left a skid mark but nothing on the road at all. This whole thing has me very depressed, going through a divorce at the same time and well today was just a bad day all around. to think I had a perfectly working bike, and missed a tiny amount of blast media has caused all this and cost this much money and wasted riding time just sucks.
 

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what you said makes sense actually. I did hear what sounded like a rattle while I was riding it, right before it died. sounded like something was loose on the front left side of the engine or near it. could have been piston or valve as you say. Since at this point I wouldn't dare ride it again in its current condition I could start it tomorrow and let it warm up to see if the noise comes back. I have to admit im a little uneducated on what a piston slap would sound like. It was flat out not going to restart this time which if a piston was stuck in the cylinder would explain it and why it starts back up after it cools down. The question is if this is indeed what is wrong with it, how hard would that be to fix if possible? As cheap as a used engine is and how fast it would be to change compared to pulling the engine and then trying to dig into it, a used engine is my best shot at still being able to ride at least a little bit before the cold weather and snow get here. I just have no education at all at working on the internal of engines. I watched a Harley video today of the disassembly and repair of the lower end of the VROD engine and, it looks insanely time consuming and way above my skillset, I am more of an electrical expert. Simple mechanical stuff I can handle but im afraid I would spend countless hours trying to break the engine apart to see the condition and then do something wrong on reassembly and just waste a lot of time.

If it is cylinder lubrication as the problem, what would have caused that to happen based off of what I had initially done to the bike. If a small amount of powder coating residue did indeed get into the oil system how would that have affected the cylinder lube part of the engine and not the crank bearings?

unfortunately when I hooked up the oil gauge, I did not wire up the light for it as I was just trying to see the oil pressure, and I was more looking at the road and RPMS so I don't recall the oil light coming on at all when it happened. Not going to lie I thought for sure I was going down and had I not pulled the clutch in I would have went down, that back tire was locked up solid. I drove the road today as I was sure I left a skid mark but nothing on the road at all. This whole thing has me very depressed, going through a divorce at the same time and well today was just a bad day all around. to think I had a perfectly working bike, and missed a tiny amount of blast media has caused all this and cost this much money and wasted riding time just sucks.
Nowhere in the log shows piston cooling jets were even needed. They are cooling jets, not actual lubrication for the pistons. Not saying some high rpm prior damage from a blocked jet isn't possible or happened before but I can't see it causing what you are experiencing at these lower rpm. My bet is a spun rod bearing, known as piggy backing. This , at first causes a very tight fit on the crank. High level of friction and heat, all of which drag the engine down. Some areas of the log showed very high map readings for the tps/rpm involved. This translates to load or in this case resistance to rotate freely. It would likely restart after it cooled but that rattling sound points to existing damage, probably the rod(s). Pistons generally rattle when cold on high mileage engines and get quieter when they expand from heat. I'd pull the pan and look up at the rods. Pretty sure it will be obvious by the rod looking bluish. The bearing will likely look similar to this.
Ron
 

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Yeah I tend to agree on bearings. Just the start back up issue throws me. And from what u say, about u and engine work. Its probably better to replace engine. Like what Harley said.
 

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Discussion Starter #195
I was going to ride it back to my place today but it appears to be locked up solid, won't turn over at all and the dash lights go dark every time I try. looks like this time it locked up for good.
 

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I was going to ride it back to my place today but it appears to be locked up solid, won't turn over at all and the dash lights go dark every time I try. looks like this time it locked up for good.
Sure sounds like it. Unfortunate outcome for this whole deal for sure.
Ron
 

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I was going to ride it back to my place today but it appears to be locked up solid, won't turn over at all and the dash lights go dark every time I try. looks like this time it locked up for good.
When and if u get time pull pan and let us know what u see.
20190907_161728.jpg
 

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I just looked back on Lapoza tread and that pic of the oil filter, #66 post. Did I miss something? The filter is covered in crud. I had my phone looking at it before and now on lap top and noticed the filter paper is nasty. This is the cause of his problems.
 

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I just looked back on Lapoza tread and that pic of the oil filter, #66 post. Did I miss something? The filter is covered in crud. I had my phone looking at it before and now on lap top and noticed the filter paper is nasty. This is the cause of his problems.
Entirely possible. While no chunks with part numbers in the pleats, these fine particles can be the ones that cause big problems over time. Only real way to see all of it is to wash the element from inside/out , over a white cloth and let it dry, revealing the solids after the cleaing solution has evaporated. Some of this stuff , depending on what it is can act like a stop lead rad product as well as a valve grinding compound.
Ron
 

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Well Lapoza I gotta say you gave it the all to try to fix it man ! You may have caught it at the beginning of it's failure mode and that's why no copper from the bearing shells were seen in the oil - was that a gray looking pasty material in the oil filter or just a light reflection off the oil caught by the camera ? Also Ron - correct me if I'm wrong but the piston oil spray jets cool the lower side of the piston domes but also put needed oil up on the upper connecting rod pin & bearings, correct ? I've heard of drag guys removing them and plugging the port ( for a few extra Hp ? ) but I would think that would lead to shortened engine life. In any event that's why turning the engine over when the plugs were out may have been a good quick friction check in a case like this. I'd pull the oil filter open it up again and see if there's any copper and like stated you could still pull the pan and look up at the rod, crank and bearings thru the oil window to see if any of it's turned blue if you wanted to. If it's locked up it's done though, and a good used engine with a 30, 60 or 90 day warranty would be your best bet. Only buy an engine from a shop that did a video of it running, shifting and has a good reputation. Lot's of scumbags selling crashed bike engines with potential issues - try to get one out of a bike that was operational and parted out vs a crashed bike with an unknown in the start and run, shift procedure that should absolutely be done. Good Luck let us know if you find out anything else - also you can post here on the site for a WTB used engine as well - a member may have a known good one for a good deal.
 
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