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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Stage 1 - K&N Filter + V&H Comp Slipons + Dynojet PV
Running semi-topless (right side of edge where air filter goes, cut off and plastics behind the left/right front air box covers taken off to allow more air thrust straight into the airbox... sort of RAM-Air effect - works fantastically with a good tune).

This issue seems to be with any map I use.

When the map is 1st installed, I do not have any stalls and the bike runs (good or bad, based on the map of course) as expected.

However, after about 3-4 iterations on PV Autotune, the bike runs very smooth... but... the revs aren't free anymore (almost as if they're suppressed), and, the bike stalls at red lights and T junctions unless I rev it just before take-off.

I'm not too bothered about the free revs, but am really concerned about the stalls at red lights & T junctions. This is dangerous, particularly when there's traffic behind you at peak hours.

That said, I feel both are related. There seems to be power missing at the idle rpm range. This problem goes away when I reload the map. And, as I said before, this isn't map related because it seems to happen with every map after 3-4 Autotune iterations.

Is there any way that I can reverse this slightly... I love the smooth tune the bike has now, but want the revs to be more free/aggressive & more power at the idle rpm when I take-off from a total stop. Not a huge amount... just a little so that the bike doesn't stall anymore.

I'm part literate in these matters, so please be kind & gentle with your replies :).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
No is a simple answer... because, I'm not sure what you mean.
Should I do a "compare" between the original map and the current one and see the A/F values?
Like I said - I'm half literate in this... I wouldn't know 1 value from another... which one's good or bad.
I can post them here if you want... perhaps if you can wrangle some time to go through them and suggest what they should be?
 

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Stage 1 - K&N Filter + V&H Comp Slipons + Dynojet PV
Running semi-topless (right side of edge where air filter goes, cut off and plastics behind the left/right front air box covers taken off to allow more air thrust straight into the airbox... sort of RAM-Air effect - works fantastically with a good tune).

This issue seems to be with any map I use.

When the map is 1st installed, I do not have any stalls and the bike runs (good or bad, based on the map of course) as expected.

However, after about 3-4 iterations on PV Autotune, the bike runs very smooth... but... the revs aren't free anymore (almost as if they're suppressed), and, the bike stalls at red lights and T junctions unless I rev it just before take-off.

I'm not too bothered about the free revs, but am really concerned about the stalls at red lights & T junctions. This is dangerous, particularly when there's traffic behind you at peak hours.

That said, I feel both are related. There seems to be power missing at the idle rpm range. This problem goes away when I reload the map. And, as I said before, this isn't map related because it seems to happen with every map after 3-4 Autotune iterations.

Is there any way that I can reverse this slightly... I love the smooth tune the bike has now, but want the revs to be more free/aggressive & more power at the idle rpm when I take-off from a total stop. Not a huge amount... just a little so that the bike doesn't stall anymore.

I'm part literate in these matters, so please be kind & gentle with your replied :).
Go into WinPv, open your cal and go into limits and switches. In Adaptive Control, change the 1 to 0. Save the cal and reload it into the bike. Might or might not need a couple more autotune runs after.
I fought that fking adaptive for a year. It is serioiusly not friendly with the vrod cals.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
There were only 3 sets of differences between the
(a) Base map
(b) Current map (base map + 4 autotune sessions)

Difference 1 = Engine Displacement
(a) Base was 80.8
(b) Current is 85.8
Not sure why this value has gone up... what should be the correct value? I would have thought this should be 76 cubic inches...

(2) VE (TPS base/Front Cyl)
(a) Base was as below
81.9 82.8 86.6 84.7 84.7 84.7 87.5 86.6 85.6 80.0 75.3 75.3 75.3 75.3 75.3
95.4 97.8 91.3 84.7 84.7 84.7 87.5 86.6 85.6 80.0 75.3 75.3 75.3 75.3 75.3
95.4 97.4 99.6 96.2 84.7 84.7 83.3 81.4 78.6 82.8 79.5 77.2 76.7 76.2 76.7
85.2 98.0 99.7 98.7 90.5 91.2 88.4 80.9 68.2 70.6 74.8 74.8 74.8 77.6 80.9
89.4 89.4 104.4 94.5 90.4 87.1 87.3 81.5 76.4 74.3 73.7 78.1 80.5 80.9 81.9
94.1 88.0 99.8 95.1 90.3 88.7 88.2 86.5 81.4 79.1 76.7 75.8 75.3 76.7 76.2
98.8 93.6 102.9 100.2 96.4 95.4 96.3 95.3 91.2 87.4 84.6 84.1 83.7 84.7 84.8
101.6 96.5 107.9 102.7 100.8 98.5 98.7 94.2 92.2 88.6 84.1 83.4 81.7 84.5 84.7
102.6 96.0 85.6 108.7 98.8 97.4 96.5 93.6 90.3 86.8 82.7 81.2 79.8 79.4 80.2
102.6 96.0 87.1 113.8 97.4 95.1 94.1 92.1 87.7 85.5 83.1 79.1 77.5 78.9 79.6
104.5 102.1 92.2 106.8 97.8 96.2 94.9 93.1 90.0 86.9 83.8 81.4 79.3 80.2 80.7
106.4 103.5 96.0 104.2 96.9 95.5 97.9 95.8 95.2 94.3 92.1 87.6 85.0 84.0 84.2
109.2 105.4 99.8 106.6 102.7 101.2 101.9 101.5 101.9 101.4 98.9 94.7 92.4 90.1 89.5
115.8 112.0 105.4 106.5 109.4 105.5 108.3 108.5 107.1 105.5 100.7 96.5 93.9 91.0 89.2
120.0 118.6 111.1 108.0 105.1 102.5 102.1 102.9 100.6 99.4 95.4 92.5 89.7 87.9 84.9
119.5 117.2 114.8 98.4 104.2 98.0 96.8 97.3 98.3 97.2 96.0 92.2 88.4 85.6 83.5
117.2 114.8 112.9 101.6 84.2 96.6 91.7 93.1 93.8 93.3 92.8 89.9 88.1 87.6 89.2
117.6 115.3 112.9 104.0 85.2 93.9 88.1 89.8 89.9 89.0 89.7 87.2 86.5 88.0 92.5
120.0 117.6 114.8 104.9 92.2 87.2 85.9 88.8 89.0 89.6 91.0 89.5 88.6 90.9 94.6
119.1 116.2 113.4 105.9 92.7 85.2 86.1 89.5 91.1 91.0 90.6 91.3 90.6 93.1 96.3
116.7 113.9 110.6 104.5 91.3 85.6 80.1 87.7 88.9 89.0 89.5 88.9 89.4 91.0 93.9
112.5 109.6 106.4 99.8 89.9 84.2 82.4 81.6 83.0 84.0 85.1 87.9 88.0 89.1 90.1
108.7 105.4 102.6 96.0 84.7 81.9 79.5 77.4 81.1 82.4 83.3 80.9 80.5 85.8 87.3

(b) Current is as below
77.1 77.9 81.5 79.7 79.7 79.7 82.4 81.5 80.6 75.3 70.9 70.9 70.9 70.9 70.9
83.0 83.1 85.9 79.7 79.7 79.7 82.4 81.5 80.6 75.3 70.9 70.9 70.9 70.9 70.9
101.6 89.5 92.8 83.9 79.7 79.7 78.4 76.6 74.0 77.9 74.8 72.7 72.2 71.7 72.2
82.1 98.5 92.6 92.9 85.2 86.5 83.2 76.1 64.2 66.4 70.4 70.4 70.4 73.0 76.1
84.1 84.1 99.2 89.1 87.1 83.6 83.4 76.7 71.9 69.9 69.4 73.5 75.8 76.1 77.1
88.6 82.8 103.1 90.4 85.4 81.7 83.0 81.4 76.6 74.4 72.2 71.3 70.9 72.2 71.7
93.0 88.1 96.8 97.8 95.2 96.5 90.6 89.7 85.8 82.3 79.6 79.2 78.8 79.7 79.8
95.6 90.8 103.1 109.5 94.5 97.2 92.9 88.7 86.8 83.4 79.2 78.5 76.9 79.5 79.7
96.6 90.4 80.6 110.2 93.8 99.3 92.8 88.1 85.0 81.7 77.8 76.4 75.1 74.7 75.5
96.6 90.4 82.0 120.0 91.7 102.9 93.7 89.8 82.5 80.5 78.2 74.4 72.9 74.3 74.9
98.4 96.1 86.8 111.6 96.0 92.2 93.6 91.3 84.7 81.8 78.9 76.6 74.6 75.5 76.0
100.1 97.4 90.4 105.2 99.5 92.6 92.1 95.6 89.6 88.8 86.7 82.4 80.0 79.1 79.2
102.8 99.2 93.9 105.8 101.8 99.3 105.5 101.2 102.7 103.1 93.1 89.1 87.0 84.8 84.2
109.0 105.4 99.2 105.8 107.7 97.9 105.8 107.3 106.5 100.8 94.8 90.8 88.4 85.6 84.0
112.9 111.6 104.6 106.7 104.0 107.9 99.6 96.8 101.7 98.0 89.8 87.1 88.3 82.7 79.9
112.5 110.3 108.0 92.6 104.4 103.5 95.0 98.9 92.5 97.6 90.4 86.8 83.2 80.6 78.6
110.3 108.0 106.3 95.6 79.2 90.9 86.3 93.4 90.2 87.8 87.3 84.6 89.9 82.4 84.0
110.7 108.5 106.3 97.9 80.2 88.4 82.9 92.2 84.6 83.8 92.0 87.9 84.9 82.8 87.1
112.9 110.7 108.0 98.7 86.8 82.1 80.8 83.6 83.8 84.3 85.6 84.2 86.4 85.6 89.0
112.1 109.4 106.7 99.7 87.2 80.2 81.0 84.2 85.7 85.6 85.3 85.9 84.3 87.6 90.6
109.8 107.2 104.1 98.4 85.9 80.6 75.4 82.5 83.7 83.8 84.2 83.7 83.8 85.6 88.4
105.9 103.2 100.1 93.9 84.6 79.2 77.6 76.8 78.1 79.1 80.1 82.7 82.3 83.9 84.8
102.3 99.2 96.6 90.4 79.7 77.1 74.8 72.8 76.3 77.6 78.4 76.1 75.8 80.8 82.2

Difference 3 = VE (TPS based/Rear Cyl)
(a) Base was as below
73.4 74.4 81.4 81.9 84.2 83.8 82.8 81.9 80.9 75.3 73.4 71.5 69.6 69.6 65.9
88.5 87.9 81.7 82.8 84.2 83.8 82.8 81.9 80.9 75.3 73.4 71.5 69.6 69.6 65.9
90.8 90.0 89.5 85.8 85.2 87.5 85.2 81.4 77.6 75.3 72.5 71.5 70.1 70.1 64.9
83.0 89.8 92.1 87.3 85.8 91.3 90.3 85.5 69.6 80.5 80.5 77.2 74.8 74.8 72.5
91.8 84.2 97.4 89.6 89.8 93.1 95.5 95.4 87.8 87.5 76.3 81.9 83.3 80.5 77.2
94.1 83.3 98.6 90.1 90.2 90.9 95.7 94.0 89.6 79.5 72.9 72.9 72.5 73.9 71.5
94.1 85.2 100.3 93.7 90.4 92.3 95.5 95.8 92.5 88.4 84.0 83.9 83.2 83.5 83.9
94.1 84.7 105.7 97.4 93.7 95.4 98.6 97.9 96.7 91.8 87.4 86.4 86.0 88.1 86.8
95.5 85.2 83.8 102.5 93.1 94.6 96.8 96.8 97.6 94.9 88.5 88.0 86.9 85.4 85.3
95.1 89.4 85.6 106.8 94.7 94.5 97.5 100.5 96.2 93.6 88.1 83.2 82.4 83.3 82.4
97.4 90.4 87.5 100.9 93.2 93.7 95.1 95.7 94.4 90.1 84.9 82.2 80.3 81.5 80.5
101.2 94.1 90.8 97.8 91.7 91.0 94.7 94.9 95.5 94.0 89.9 84.7 83.0 82.6 85.0
104.9 96.0 90.8 98.7 96.9 95.1 97.0 100.5 103.1 101.8 97.8 91.8 88.0 85.4 89.1
110.6 99.8 96.0 100.7 102.3 97.9 100.6 104.0 107.8 103.0 99.1 95.6 91.1 88.1 88.5
112.9 107.3 101.6 102.3 97.2 95.0 94.7 100.7 103.3 102.9 100.3 97.6 93.0 89.6 90.0
115.3 111.5 103.5 95.1 97.5 94.0 93.7 100.0 102.9 103.4 102.3 99.3 95.6 92.9 93.3
114.4 110.6 107.3 96.0 81.9 94.0 89.3 94.0 97.8 98.6 99.0 96.2 93.6 91.2 92.0
113.4 109.6 105.9 97.9 80.9 91.4 87.0 90.1 91.5 92.2 94.0 92.7 91.5 91.9 96.1
112.5 108.2 104.0 96.9 82.8 84.5 85.1 88.3 89.8 90.6 91.7 91.1 90.6 92.3 97.3
111.5 106.8 102.1 94.1 81.9 80.5 83.8 86.0 89.0 89.1 89.4 90.2 89.6 91.4 94.0
110.1 105.4 100.7 92.7 81.9 80.0 81.7 83.9 86.1 88.2 90.1 89.5 88.8 90.4 93.2
109.6 104.0 99.3 91.3 80.0 78.1 76.2 82.6 86.5 88.5 90.2 88.4 87.7 87.3 90.0
108.2 102.6 97.9 89.4 73.4 70.6 74.4 79.7 84.4 85.0 82.4 81.9 80.5 86.4 86.4

(b) Current is as below
69.1 70.0 76.6 77.1 79.2 78.9 77.9 77.1 76.1 70.9 69.1 67.3 65.5 65.5 62.0
71.2 74.1 76.9 77.9 79.2 78.9 77.9 77.1 76.1 70.9 69.1 67.3 65.5 65.5 62.0
90.1 80.1 76.3 73.7 80.2 82.4 80.2 76.6 73.0 70.9 68.2 67.3 66.0 66.0 61.1
79.6 86.2 79.0 77.8 79.7 86.8 85.0 80.5 65.5 75.8 75.8 72.7 70.4 70.4 68.2
86.4 79.2 86.7 80.9 86.9 87.9 89.7 89.8 82.6 82.4 71.8 77.1 78.4 75.8 72.7
88.6 78.4 93.1 80.9 84.4 80.3 90.1 88.5 84.3 74.8 68.6 68.6 68.2 69.6 67.3
88.6 80.2 94.4 83.9 84.5 89.1 89.9 90.2 87.1 83.2 79.1 79.0 78.3 78.6 79.0
88.6 79.7 100.1 91.0 85.9 85.2 92.8 92.1 91.0 86.4 82.3 81.3 80.9 82.9 81.7
89.9 80.2 78.9 98.2 86.0 88.7 91.2 91.1 91.9 89.3 83.3 82.8 81.8 80.4 80.3
89.5 84.1 80.6 106.8 89.1 90.7 94.0 95.5 90.5 88.1 82.9 78.3 77.6 78.4 77.6
91.7 85.1 82.4 97.9 87.7 87.5 91.5 91.5 88.8 84.8 79.9 77.4 75.6 76.7 75.8
95.2 88.6 85.5 95.5 92.8 88.1 89.1 94.7 89.9 88.5 84.6 79.7 78.1 77.7 80.0
98.7 90.4 85.5 95.3 92.4 91.1 98.5 99.8 102.6 101.2 92.0 86.4 82.8 80.4 83.9
104.1 93.9 90.4 93.8 97.1 89.7 96.7 101.2 106.3 99.5 93.3 90.0 85.7 82.9 83.3
106.3 101.0 95.6 97.3 93.6 95.4 90.6 94.8 99.6 99.9 94.4 91.9 93.1 84.3 84.7
108.5 104.9 97.4 89.5 92.1 92.2 85.4 95.3 96.8 100.1 96.3 93.5 90.0 87.4 87.8
107.7 104.1 101.0 90.4 77.1 88.5 84.0 88.7 89.1 92.8 93.2 90.5 95.6 85.8 86.6
106.7 103.2 99.7 92.1 76.1 86.0 81.9 88.3 86.1 86.8 97.4 93.4 91.1 86.5 90.4
105.9 101.8 97.9 91.2 77.9 79.5 80.1 83.1 84.5 85.3 86.3 85.7 91.6 86.9 91.6
104.9 100.5 96.1 88.6 77.1 75.8 78.9 80.9 83.8 83.9 84.1 84.9 88.8 86.0 88.5
103.6 99.2 94.8 87.2 77.1 75.3 76.9 79.0 81.0 83.0 84.8 84.2 88.2 85.1 87.7
103.2 97.9 93.5 85.9 75.3 73.5 71.7 77.7 81.4 83.3 84.9 83.2 85.6 82.2 84.7
101.8 96.6 92.1 84.1 69.1 66.4 70.0 75.0 79.4 80.0 77.6 77.1 75.8 81.3 81.3

There seems to be a drop of 4-9 across the board in the VE values Front/Rear cylinders.

If I replace the current values around the 0 - 10% TP and 1000 - 2250 rpm (21 cells in total)... to that of the original map... will this resolve the issue of the stalls? Should I widen the range to 0-20% TP and 1000 - 2750rpm?

Does this help you diagnose what the issue is?
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Go into WinPv, open your cal and go into limits and switches. In Adaptive Control, change the 1 to 0. Save the cal and reload it into the bike. Might or might not need a couple more autotune runs after.
I fought that fking adaptive for a year. It is serioiusly not friendly with the vrod cals.
Ron
Ah ok... will try that today evening and autotune again.
So, you reckon, I leave everything else untouched... just toggle the Adaptive Control 1 (on) > 0 (off)...
 

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Ah ok... will try that today evening and autotune again.
So, you reckon, I leave everything else untouched... just toggle the Adaptive Control 1 (on) > 0 (off)...
What I see in the tables is it's auto tuning as it should based on the clbs it sees to work from. Base cals are usually not even close so they change a lot. Are you basic autotuning this bike? If so, it blows because it uses 700clb across the board and pulls -4 degree on the timing to set up for autotuning. During autotuning it also disables the adaptive. When done and you reset the cal the actual ve's are not correct to the new clbs and timing and unless switched off the adaptive will be enabled.
I used MyTune program to use actual timing and my chosen clbs and got a much better tune in the end and turned the adaptive off. You still have closed loop learn while the engine is running but it doesn't store trims long term that can alter the tune over time, usually for the bad. Reason is, some of the lower end ve's sometimes need to be altered beyond what autotune gives you due to reversion. The adaptive will see this and try to revert it with long term learn or block learn as it's also called, back to where it was missing or whatever prior to the manual edits. Resetting the trims in PV makes it start at 0 again in block learn and the engine runs good again, for a while. I've run my adaptive off for 4 years now and the tune is very stable day in and day out. Pior to that, having it active , the tune was always drifting.
Ron
 

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What I see in the tables is it's auto tuning as it should based on the clbs it sees to work from. Base cals are usually not even close so they change a lot. Are you basic autotuning this bike? If so, it blows because it uses 700clb across the board and pulls -4 degree on the timing to set up for autotuning. During autotuning it also disables the adaptive. When done and you reset the cal the actual ve's are not correct to the new clbs and timing and unless switched off the adaptive will be enabled.
I used MyTune program to use actual timing and my chosen clbs and got a much better tune in the end and turned the adaptive off. You still have closed loop learn while the engine is running but it doesn't store trims long term that can alter the tune over time, usually for the bad. Reason is, some of the lower end ve's sometimes need to be altered beyond what autotune gives you due to reversion. The adaptive will see this and try to revert it with long term learn or block learn as it's also called, back to where it was missing or whatever prior to the manual edits. Resetting the trims in PV makes it start at 0 again in block learn and the engine runs good again, for a while. I've run my adaptive off for 4 years now and the tune is very stable day in and day out. Pior to that, having it active , the tune was always drifting.
Ron
Is this an issue with the AutoTune option only? I ask as I run the TargetTune option (which as you may know allows for closed loop full time/WBO feedback at WOT and cruise/etc) and have seen none of these issues.

One thing that no one talks about...there is a switch you can enable (at least with TargetTune) that allows the PV to autotune timing as well (benefit of keeping ion sensing system!). Haven't tried it, but will be taking a look at before and after...
 

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Is this an issue with the AutoTune option only? I ask as I run the TargetTune option (which as you may know allows for closed loop full time/WBO feedback at WOT and cruise/etc) and have seen none of these issues.

One thing that no one talks about...there is a switch you can enable (at least with TargetTune) that allows the PV to autotune timing as well (benefit of keeping ion sensing system!). Haven't tried it, but will be taking a look at before and after...
If the cal settings are agreeable to the engine it will tune in and stay in tune. If a tune is off center with NB sensors those closed loop areas can drift. A second option to not turning the adaptive off is to open loop problem areas only to stop drift.
Ion sensing is in play with both and the logs will show areas where detonation occurred. You can then modify that area, usually one cell prior to log location due to slow signals. MyTune also does the timing tables based on knock events. I'm really not a fan of PV Basic autotune as it's well, too basic.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
What I see in the tables is it's auto tuning as it should based on the clbs it sees to work from. Base cals are usually not even close so they change a lot. Are you basic autotuning this bike? If so, it blows because it uses 700clb across the board and pulls -4 degree on the timing to set up for autotuning. During autotuning it also disables the adaptive. When done and you reset the cal the actual ve's are not correct to the new clbs and timing and unless switched off the adaptive will be enabled.
I used MyTune program to use actual timing and my chosen clbs and got a much better tune in the end and turned the adaptive off. You still have closed loop learn while the engine is running but it doesn't store trims long term that can alter the tune over time, usually for the bad. Reason is, some of the lower end ve's sometimes need to be altered beyond what autotune gives you due to reversion. The adaptive will see this and try to revert it with long term learn or block learn as it's also called, back to where it was missing or whatever prior to the manual edits. Resetting the trims in PV makes it start at 0 again in block learn and the engine runs good again, for a while. I've run my adaptive off for 4 years now and the tune is very stable day in and day out. Pior to that, having it active , the tune was always drifting.
Ron
Thank you Ron. :notworth:

I got bits & pieces of what you said. By and large, please assume I'm stupid and kindly bear with me!

Yes, I think I'm using basic AutoTune. To be clear, I do not have TargetTune or anything else. I'm just using AutoTune via the PV console connected directly to the bike. I take the bike out for up to 20-30 min rides trying to do pulls through different gears.

I did use MyTune and SEST initially, but the faffing about with loading tunes, logging, MyTuning the tunes, reloading - all whilst using a laptop (particularly when you're not at home)... was really annoying. That is why I moved to the PV.
Sad thing is that I had a perfectly usable map when I moved, and, instead of saving it somewhere, I think I trashed it thinking the PV'll do a much better job! That learnt me, huh?

I also found the map drifting weird... the bike would run absolutely fine one day and completely trashed up the next. I couldn't figure that out... I put it down to the map or the weather as some days the air was cold, and on other days it was warm.

Another thing I normally do is when I load a map (even after autotune), is to clear the trim values when the PV asks me the question. Is that good?

From your experience, if you were to draw up a checklist/do's & don'ts for the PV... what would you put in it?
(1) Make sure Adaptive Control is turned OFF (0)
(2) Trim values when loading maps?
(3)

Thank you once again... and apologies if I've sounded silly. I am willing to learn.
 

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If the cal settings are agreeable to the engine it will tune in and stay in tune. If a tune is off center with NB sensors those closed loop areas can drift. A second option to not turning the adaptive off is to open loop problem areas only to stop drift.
Ion sensing is in play with both and the logs will show areas where detonation occurred. You can then modify that area, usually one cell prior to log location due to slow signals. MyTune also does the timing tables based on knock events. I'm really not a fan of PV Basic autotune as it's well, too basic.
Ron
Agreed and now I understand where you are coming from.

I'm a huge proponent to NOT tuning with narrow band sensors. You can only assume (dangerous) rich or lean, not really how much.

I love the TargetTune module. Wish I had the option with my other project vehicles that I use the OEM ECU's. I digress.
 

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Thank you Ron. :notworth:

I got bits & pieces of what you said. By and large, please assume I'm stupid and kindly bear with me!

Yes, I think I'm using basic AutoTune. To be clear, I do not have TargetTune or anything else. I'm just using AutoTune via the PV console connected directly to the bike. I take the bike out for up to 20-30 min rides trying to do pulls through different gears.

I did use MyTune and SEST initially, but the faffing about with loading tunes, logging, MyTuning the tunes, reloading - all whilst using a laptop (particularly when you're not at home)... was really annoying. That is why I moved to the PV.
Sad thing is that I had a perfectly usable map when I moved, and, instead of saving it somewhere, I think I trashed it thinking the PV'll do a much better job! That learnt me, huh?

I also found the map drifting weird... the bike would run absolutely fine one day and completely trashed up the next. I couldn't figure that out... I put it down to the map or the weather as some days the air was cold, and on other days it was warm.

Another thing I normally do is when I load a map (even after autotune), is to clear the trim values when the PV asks me the question. Is that good?

From your experience, if you were to draw up a checklist/do's & don'ts for the PV... what would you put in it?
(1) Make sure Adaptive Control is turned OFF (0)
(2) Trim values when loading maps?
(3)

Thank you once again... and apologies if I've sounded silly. I am willing to learn.
Read my other response about narrow band O2 sensors.

Also, seriously consider adding the TargetTune module. It is the answer to all of this AND it's the correct way to tune/run this bike. Truly unique to this OEM platform (closed loop WOT with OEM ECU). Can't say I've seen it on really any other vehicle (at least with this precision).
 

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Thank you Ron. :notworth:

I got bits & pieces of what you said. By and large, please assume I'm stupid and kindly bear with me!

Yes, I think I'm using basic AutoTune. To be clear, I do not have TargetTune or anything else. I'm just using AutoTune via the PV console connected directly to the bike. I take the bike out for up to 20-30 min rides trying to do pulls through different gears.

I did use MyTune and SEST initially, but the faffing about with loading tunes, logging, MyTuning the tunes, reloading - all whilst using a laptop (particularly when you're not at home)... was really annoying. That is why I moved to the PV.
Sad thing is that I had a perfectly usable map when I moved, and, instead of saving it somewhere, I think I trashed it thinking the PV'll do a much better job! That learnt me, huh?

I also found the map drifting weird... the bike would run absolutely fine one day and completely trashed up the next. I couldn't figure that out... I put it down to the map or the weather as some days the air was cold, and on other days it was warm.

Another thing I normally do is when I load a map (even after autotune), is to clear the trim values when the PV asks me the question. Is that good?

From your experience, if you were to draw up a checklist/do's & don'ts for the PV... what would you put in it?
(1) Make sure Adaptive Control is turned OFF (0)
(2) Trim values when loading maps?
(3)

Thank you once again... and apologies if I've sounded silly. I am willing to learn.
While using Basic the Adaptive is turned off automatically while tuning. It will also drop the timing tables -4 and possibly disable AE and DE. I would manually disable it for when the final tuned cal is reset after tuning. By reset, the afr table is back to base and not all 14.6 cell everywhere. That should help with the odd behavior from day to day. While in tuning mode, I always clear fuel trims on a new cal load and each autotuned cal session.
Here's the weird part I found. While PV allows the adaptive to be switched off, I'm not sure it completely stops the learn. Over time my bike ran even better. I actually tested this. At 3500 the odd rare time it had a hickup. Within one day of riding it went away and stayed away. I purposely cleared the trims and the hickup came back. Did this about 3 times and sure enough within a day it's free and clear of any running issues. Been that way since I did this cal. About a month ago I altered the 10kpa decel area of the AFR table and when it asked to clear trims I chose no. There was no hickup right from the start so I now do not clear trims on a cal that's working perfect for any other edits that might come along. The warmup table for example takes quite a bit of time to dial in to get the perfect cold starts and heat soaked IAT restarts.
Now, if you have MyTune, you will get a much better tune by using it rather then autotuning to a default rich CLB and reduced timing and the revert the cal back to different Clbs and the -4 timing taken away. The whole process makes no damn sense to me and doesn't work worth shit in the end. Continue on with the cal you have now but change the CLB tables to the sample below. Disable the adaptive for good. leave the AE, DE, and PE alone. Set as much of the AFR table to 14.6 to collect data. The timing left as is now, as in what the base cal is, because you've already got the ve tables in a safe area of operation with what you've already tuned, to keep it from detonating. Make sure when you start log that the IAT isn't heat soaked. I drive a mile or so, then Start Log. Collect data in a smooth throttle up loading. If you need to slow down, decel with clutch pulled in and throttle rolled back. Don't accept any log data where the engine was exposed to light load or decels or the ve table in that area will be bloated and incorrect. Try and duplicate how you ride it each time and with the purpose of collecting good data. When you get the compare delta's down to 2-3 after 5-8 runs, call it done and reset the afr table to base and see how it behaves. Good luck and have fun tuning. Oh, the Sert cal you use in MyTune to run the logs through is 177ZL002
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Wow... oh wow... there's soooo much information here! I'm salivating just reading and taking it all in! Thank you SOO much for taking the time out to explain. :notworth::notworth:

Understood - AutoTune Pro/TargetTune is the way to go. Will start saving up for it.
TBH, deep down, I did know it, but the sheer amount of "unknowns" deterred me. Hence the reason why I've gone part-in... with a step-at-a-time approach.

While using Basic the Adaptive is turned off automatically while tuning. It will also drop the timing tables -4 and possibly disable AE and DE. I would manually disable it for when the final tuned cal is reset after tuning. By reset, the afr table is back to base and not all 14.6 cell everywhere. That should help with the odd behavior from day to day. While in tuning mode, I always clear fuel trims on a new cal load and each autotuned cal session.
By manually disabling, I assume you mean that once I'm happy with the tune, I download it to my PC using WinPV and manually disable the Adaptive Control before loading it back. Correct?

Here's the weird part I found. While PV allows the adaptive to be switched off, I'm not sure it completely stops the learn. Over time my bike ran even better. I actually tested this. At 3500 the odd rare time it had a hickup. Within one day of riding it went away and stayed away. I purposely cleared the trims and the hickup came back. Did this about 3 times and sure enough within a day it's free and clear of any running issues. Been that way since I did this cal. About a month ago I altered the 10kpa decel area of the AFR table and when it asked to clear trims I chose no. There was no hickup right from the start so I now do not clear trims on a cal that's working perfect for any other edits that might come along.
Doh... I clear the trims each time! I won't going forward...

The warmup table for example takes quite a bit of time to dial in to get the perfect cold starts and heat soaked IAT restarts.
Do you mean the "IAC Warmup Steps"? My table is
60
58
43
42
35
24
15
12
11
11
11
11
Does it look OK?

Continue on with the cal you have now but change the CLB tables to the sample below. Disable the adaptive for good. leave the AE, DE, and PE alone. Set as much of the AFR table to 14.6 to collect data.
Done!

The timing left as is now, as in what the base cal is, because you've already got the ve tables in a safe area of operation with what you've already tuned, to keep it from detonating.
Understood! Makes complete sense.

Make sure when you start log that the IAT isn't heat soaked. I drive a mile or so, then Start Log.
I normally start log as soon as I start the bike. I then let the bike warm up to 75degC and then ride off. The bike doesn't collect data till the Engine Temp is > 75degC anyway.
I think it achieves the same objective as riding 1 mile and then starting the log. Or do you let the bike warm up to 75degC, ride a mile, and then start the log?

Collect data in a smooth throttle up loading. If you need to slow down, decel with clutch pulled in and throttle rolled back. Don't accept any log data where the engine was exposed to light load or decels or the ve table in that area will be bloated and incorrect.
Aha! I don't decelerate with the clutch pulled in... I use the engine's natural braking to slow down.
When you say "light loads" what do you mean please?

Try and duplicate how you ride it each time and with the purpose of collecting good data.
Understood.

When you get the compare delta's down to 2-3 after 5-8 runs, call it done and reset the afr table to base and see how it behaves. Good luck and have fun tuning.
Ah ok... this is yet another thing I don't do - compare each iteration. I overwrite the previous one with the new one.
What you say makes complete sense.

Oh, the Sert cal you use in MyTune to run the logs through is 177ZL002
Ron
I actually came across this by chance. Was never sure till now - thank you for confirming.

Another weird thing using MyTune... It won't recognise any of my PV logs... even though I've got "PowerVision" selected in the log file type... I keep getting the error:
"PVAT-020.csv is not a valid PowerVision log file. Make sure you have the correct log type selected in the "Log Type" dropdown at the bottom of the MyTune Window."

Any ideas? Could it be license related? I haven't used MyTune for quite some time now and the s/w was updated twice... perhaps the license was dropped at some point?
 

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Wow... oh wow... there's soooo much information here! I'm salivating just reading and taking it all in! Thank you SOO much for taking the time out to explain. :notworth::notworth:

Understood - AutoTune Pro/TargetTune is the way to go. Will start saving up for it.
TBH, deep down, I did know it, but the sheer amount of "unknowns" deterred me. Hence the reason why I've gone part-in... with a step-at-a-time approach.


By manually disabling, I assume you mean that once I'm happy with the tune, I download it to my PC using WinPV and manually disable the Adaptive Control before loading it back. Correct?


Doh... I clear the trims each time! I won't going forward...


Do you mean the "IAC Warmup Steps"? My table is
60
58
43
42
35
24
15
12
11
11
11
11
Does it look OK?


Done!


Understood! Makes complete sense.


I normally start log as soon as I start the bike. I then let the bike warm up to 75degC and then ride off. The bike doesn't collect data till the Engine Temp is > 75degC anyway.
I think it achieves the same objective as riding 1 mile and then starting the log. Or do you let the bike warm up to 75degC, ride a mile, and then start the log?


Aha! I don't decelerate with the clutch pulled in... I use the engine's natural braking to slow down.
When you say "light loads" what do you mean please?


Understood.


Ah ok... this is yet another thing I don't do - compare each iteration. I overwrite the previous one with the new one.
What you say makes complete sense.


I actually came across this by chance. Was never sure till now - thank you for confirming.

Another weird thing using MyTune... It won't recognise any of my PV logs... even though I've got "PowerVision" selected in the log file type... I keep getting the error:
"PVAT-020.csv is not a valid PowerVision log file. Make sure you have the correct log type selected in the "Log Type" dropdown at the bottom of the MyTune Window."

Any ideas? Could it be license related? I haven't used MyTune for quite some time now and the s/w was updated twice... perhaps the license was dropped at some point?
Yes, on final loaded cal you are happy with have the Adaptive disabled. If you plan on doing your tune with MyTune disable it prior to running logs and keep it disabled even when done tuning.

Leave the IAC warmup steps alone. I was referring to the AFR warmup table. It effects afr for about less then a minute for starting. For now, leave it alone. You will know if it needs tweaking, way down the road. Most tuners don't even look at it, but they should. Later.

If you use Basic, it will not autotune until minimum temp is reached so no issue there. If you go with Mytune, always try and collect data in the logs at normal engine temp of 180F-200F. The first log session, I let the engine warm up to this and start log. If I come back and load the changes from the next cal, I will ride a mile or two to cool the IAT down, then start the logging. Temps effect what ve will be set from the logs in Mytune, so like trying to ride the bike the same way and keeping the logging temps close to same makes things more consistent in data collection.

I clear fuel trims on each load during tuning. Once I'm happy with the cal and only make changes to other areas, not realated to ve or afr table, I will not clear trims. If I changed any areas related to fuel in the map, I will clear trims at that point. Say, I change idle rpm, there is no reason to clear trims then.

Light loads is when the bike is coasting or things like going through town in 3rd gear and loafing along or any condition that puts the KPA at or lower then normal idle. That seriously skews what ve will be in logging due to reversion. The engine should always be in some form of load when collecting log data. Don't have to be high load unless you want data there but don't accept any data the was achieved from coasting with next to no load. This is why I pull the clutch in and coast back to where the engine will see load again when the clutch comes out. Besides ,PV has a low limit kpa where it can collect data, 20 kpa I believe and vrods will go down to 10.3 kpa so the whole decel process is useless. Decel ve's need to be manually put in. It's easy and will deal with that later if you have decel popping. Keep in mind, you will likely hear popping during tuning because of the 14.6 cells. Once the afr table is reset, it's a different cal in those areas.

WinPV cannot open logs. If you want to view them, open Acell program and load the cal into that. There are defaults that the logging captures but you can add different ones by enabling them in the PV signals screen. It will then log those also. There are about 39 signals it can log.

When logging, I have the PV mounted with showing RPM, TPS%, KPA and Engine Temp and IAT temp. This way I can see what's happening where and where I'm gathering data.
Oh, in the logging thing. It can only store so many and when you reach the limit, it will place the next log into #1. I'd clear all the logs out before starting or remember this quirk.
As for cals, I number sequence each save as after MyTune.

Target Tune will get the higher areas of the map for ve but not I'm not about to rush out and buy one. Base cals are shit, yes , even worse then base PV cals.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 · (Edited)
Hey Ron,

I wasn't able to take the bike out for a serious spin yesterday as was corralled into taking my daughter home (pillion).

But, I did manage to sneak a couple of AutoTunes in. Sadly, both runs couldn't be more different... good & bad in a way.
Good because I feel I've got a wider coverage.
Bad, because data wasn't gathered in the same area as you advised.

NW... I'll keep on with the data gathering for a few more iterations.

I was comparing what you said in your post above, with your bike's map (the one you sent me a few months back). Your map seems to be pretty much in line with what you've said... so, I'm quite keen in trying your map out one of these days and then doing a few iterations on it to see how it goes.

I've attached my current map, in case you want to have a look at it. It has the Adaptive Control switched off, AFR set to 14.6 all over and CLB changed as advised.
It doesn't stall anymore and pulls like a freight train.
Pops a lot on deceleration and drinks fuel like it was going out of fashion.

I think I need at least 2-3 more AutoTunes before the map begins to be sensible. I'll need some time to have fun with these maps... please bear with me. I'll update this thread in a couple of weeks time... hopefully, I'll have a decent map soon!

Thank you once again!
 

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Hey Ron,

I wasn't able to take the bike out for a serious spin yesterday as was corralled into taking my daughter home (pillion).

But, I did manage to sneak a couple of AutoTunes in. Sadly, both runs couldn't be more different... good & bad in a way.
Good because I feel I've got a wider coverage.
Bad, because data wasn't gathered in the same area as you advised.

NW... I'll keep on with the data gathering for a few more iterations.

I was comparing what you said in your post above, with your bike's map (the one you sent me a few months back). Your map seems to be pretty much in line with what you've said... so, I'm quite keen in trying your map out one of these days and then doing a few iterations on it to see how it goes.

I've attached my current map, in case you want to have a look at it. It has the Adaptive Control switched off, AFR set to 14.6 all over and CLB changed as advised.
It doesn't stall anymore and pulls like a freight train.
Pops a lot on deceleration and drinks fuel like it was going out of fashion.

I think I need at least 2-3 more AutoTunes before the map begins to be sensible. I'll need some time to have fun with these maps... please bear with me. I'll update this thread in a couple of weeks time... hopefully, I'll have a decent map soon!

Thank you once again!
I take it you are using MyTune for the ve tables? It's the only way to get it right.
Viewing your cal, while it's headed in the right direction, it has a long way to go. What I would do is run the cal I sent you for logs and running through MyTune.
Change all the cells to 14.6 except 7000-9000 from 80-100%. Leave that area as my cal is now. It's normal to decel pop if cells are set to 14.6 in the low end. Later, when the tuning is done, these AFR cells will be set back to the way my sent cal was to a richer open loop afr.
While NB sensors have limits as in they struggle to get data in the upper rpms and loads, they do a fine job otherwise to get a tune.
Widebands are used for this area but unless you plan on running the salt flats, blending as was done in the cal I sent you, it's good enough. The cal you sent me was looking a hair lean in that area so between that and the amount needed in the rest of the cells, is the reason I suggest to use my cal as the log tuning base line. Remember none of this will not work in BASIC AUTO TUNE.
MyTune, 177ZL002 for log functions.
Ron
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I take it you are using MyTune for the ve tables? It's the only way to get it right.
Viewing your cal, while it's headed in the right direction, it has a long way to go. What I would do is run the cal I sent you for logs and running through MyTune.
Change all the cells to 14.6 except 7000-9000 from 80-100%. Leave that area as my cal is now. It's normal to decel pop if cells are set to 14.6 in the low end. Later, when the tuning is done, these AFR cells will be set back to the way my sent cal was to a richer open loop afr.
While NB sensors have limits as in they struggle to get data in the upper rpms and loads, they do a fine job otherwise to get a tune.
Widebands are used for this area but unless you plan on running the salt flats, blending as was done in the cal I sent you, it's good enough. The cal you sent me was looking a hair lean in that area so between that and the amount needed in the rest of the cells, is the reason I suggest to use my cal as the log tuning base line. Remember none of this will not work in BASIC AUTO TUNE.
MyTune, 177ZL002 for log functions.
Ron
Hey Ron,

No... not using MyTune currently because it doesn't seem to recognise the PV logs despite selecting PowerVision in the drop-down. I wrote to Frank - he's looking at my logs to figure out why MyTune isn't recognising my logs. I hope to hear back from him this week/early next week.

Interestingly, I had written to Dynojet and got a reply back from them too (I had sent them an old Akra 2into1 based tune when I raised a call for the stalls). [email protected] went through my tune and seemed to think that there were a few irregularities in it. He's kindly fixed it and sprinkled some fairy dust on the tune before sending it to me...

Oh boy... definitely a keeper!
  • Good strong idle (just perfect... not too high or too low)
  • No stalling problems pulling off from red lights/t-junctions anymore
  • Appears to be a wolf in sheep's clothing - deceptively aggressive... composed at normal traffic, but superb pulls in the open
  • Practically no deceleration popping

He may have just helped me leapfrog the tune at least 4-5 iterations! Please find it attached... I'd like your opinion on how I can take this tune further.
 

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