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Two 2003 VRSCA's: CTHULHU is Black/Sterling, N/A ; EVIL TWIN is Anodized and S/C
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have received advice from you guys who are definitely "in the know" that for my SuperCharger build I should be going with the PCV.

That said, and advice taken...but DynoJet is not giving my Dyno guy (Dan) the feedback he requires and there is slow to little response from their customer service for a SuperCharger application. And now they don't even offer the PCV on their website ever since coming out with the PC6. Dan tells me that the PC6 is a dumbed down PCV and that it won't give me the results I'm looking for. I keep telling him what you guys have told me...that I NEED the ion/knock sensing function of the Delphi unit and that the "piggyback" PCV is the only way to retain this function.

Dan is really pushing the DTT. He is extremely experienced with DTT. He has built Bonneville land-speed bikes using DTT. But he hasn't ever used it on a SuperCharged V-Rod. The owner (Nick) of the Holy-Moto equipped V-Rod that Dan was supposed to have tuned prior to mine has decided to tune it himself with the DTT Autotune because Dan didn't have appointment availability prior to the start of the season here.

So...what should I do? My appointment with Dan isn't until December and in fact I haven't even started my tear-down as I am still waiting on the last two parts I need (a back-ordered pair of 8027K bearings coming from Manchester H-D in England). I am loathe to tear apart a perfectly good stock 2003 without first having all the parts I need to put it back together.

Should I proceed with finding a PCV from an aftermarket seller and try to tune it myself with Autotune since Dan seems unwilling to budge on the DTT issue? Is there another Dyno guy in the NorthEast anyone can recommend who has experience with SuperCharged V-Rods and the PCV?

Sean
 

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Check Fuel Moto they're the go to place for H-D and V Rod EFI tuning systems - they still show the PCV plus Auto and Target Tune available, they have been extremely helpful to forum members after the sale in tuning their engines. DTT is also an excellent choice but as you said no ION knock system but if its a race only bike you can probably tune to knock avoidance ( rich ). Call Fuel Moto and DTT and get some feedback, but for ease of use and to retain ION I would lean PCV, that's what I'm going to do with my Stage 2 N/A 1250 street bike. (y):cool:
 

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Check Fuel Moto they're the go to place for H-D and V Rod EFI tuning systems - they still show the PCV plus Auto and Target Tune available, they have been extremely helpful to forum members after the sale in tuning their engines. DTT is also an excellent choice but as you said no ION knock system but if its a race only bike you can probably tune to knock avoidance ( rich ). Call Fuel Moto and DTT and get some feedback, but for ease of use and to retain ION I would lean PCV, that's what I'm going to do with my Stage 2 N/A 1250 street bike. (y):cool:
For NA and street, I'd go with PCV and autotune.
Ron
 

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Dan is really pushing the DTT. He is extremely experienced with DTT. He has built Bonneville land-speed bikes using DTT. But he hasn't ever used it on a SuperCharged V-Rod. The owner (Nick) of the Holy-Moto equipped V-Rod that Dan was supposed to have tuned prior to mine has decided to tune it himself with the DTT Autotune because Dan didn't have appointment availability prior to the start of the season here.
If the Electronic Fuel Injection concept is crystal clear I do not see any reason why experienced tuner could not make SC work as well. DTT may not be the easiest path but versatile enough for the task. Maybe its little bit bad reputation comes from there that it is bit demanding to get working smoothly. And higher you go narrower your good tune window will be. Autotune helps but it does not solve all. It can even mess things little bit. Fundamental setup has to be close to right.
 

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I can think of only two reasons to use the DTT unit. You are running boost beyond 14 psi. Second, your older bike doesn't support Target Tune (I believe you need a 2008 or newer ECM).

In your case I'd vote PCV to get 3 bar support + ion-sensing in play still. If you (or your tuner) don't like piggyback units (which the PCV is) then really the DTT is your best choice with the understanding knock logging is not going to be present.
 

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Good point freudie1 - early ECM's will not accept TT since there is no O2 feedback loop wiring into the ECU ? I have an electrical diagram showing how to add those wires in but I'm not sure if it would actually work and be worth doing to a 2006 ECU. Best for my N/A I guess is to go AT ? So can 2003VRR use PCV with AT on his S/C with the older ECU ? Pretty sure boost will be well below 14 psi - Thanks
 

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Good point freudie1 - early ECM's will not accept TT since there is no O2 feedback loop wiring into the ECU ? I have an electrical diagram showing how to add those wires in but I'm not sure if it would actually work and be worth doing to a 2006 ECU. Best for my N/A I guess is to go AT ? So can 2003VRR use PCV with AT on his S/C with the older ECU ? Pretty sure boost will be well below 14 psi - Thanks
It's not only a matter of missing wiring, but I think the earlier ECU's were different hardware (could be wrong, but I swear they used an early Delphi unit in the 1st gen bikes). In other words, the engineering calibration that TT utilizes doesn't work with the older hardware if I recall correctly.

As for the PCV, I don't see why it wouldn't work with your ECU...it's a piggy back unit. As long as it has a 2 bar (in your case I suggest 3 bar due to the larger blower...) to read it should be good. I know John on this forum uses one and he basically tunes it via TPS (alpha-n style) with success...so maybe MAP sensor is not such a big deal for some (I much rather tune speed density style).

Sure you won't be above 14psi? That blower you are using is huge for this engine. The "smaller" c15-60 can hit 12-13 psi on the Revo. I'd imagine (haven't looked at the map for the larger blower) yours would be able to easily hit 14+. Then again you can restrict/blow off/control boost at will.....just don't know why you'd run the larger blower if you are staying sub 14 psi other than efficiency.
 

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To me knowing O2 values accurately is way more important than relying ion sensing knock retard. First is proactive and latter is reactive tuning.

Autotune O2 loopback is for the longer term tuning in DTT. It does not react immediately. Only via BLM tables and target AFR. Process is statistical or moreover stochastic.
 

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Good point freudie1 - early ECM's will not accept TT since there is no O2 feedback loop wiring into the ECU ? I have an electrical diagram showing how to add those wires in but I'm not sure if it would actually work and be worth doing to a 2006 ECU. Best for my N/A I guess is to go AT ? So can 2003VRR use PCV with AT on his S/C with the older ECU ? Pretty sure boost will be well below 14 psi - Thanks
the dtt fits all models,its just adding extra wiring for the 02s,but thats no prob.
 

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Good point freudie1 - early ECM's will not accept TT since there is no O2 feedback loop wiring into the ECU ? I have an electrical diagram showing how to add those wires in but I'm not sure if it would actually work and be worth doing to a 2006 ECU. Best for my N/A I guess is to go AT ? So can 2003VRR use PCV with AT on his S/C with the older ECU ? Pretty sure boost will be well below 14 psi - Thanks
Yes. PCV and autotune do not rely on the bikes ECM capability for closed loop. The WB sensors tune the PCV cal, which in turn send modified injector pulse width changes to the ECM. Works both for NA and Boost. For boost, you can go TPS or set up a cal for pressure tuning using a 2-3 bar map sensor. Down side of pressure tuning on a v twin is the pulsing down low. You can however TPS tune the low end and pressure tune above that. Best of both worlds then. Note, all PCV units are pressure tune capable by just adding a wire from Map sensor to unit. The PCV-PTI is a dedicated pressure setup. It's internal wired harness for that map sensor connection. No big deal either way as it's only one wire, external hook up or internal wired.
I believe the latest version is PC6, likely incorporating that PTI into it.
Ron
 

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Curious is there many boosted bikes with PCV done?
I only know of JohnR on this forum using that setup for boost.

I know of several (and one personally) that run boost with the native Delphi ECU and table scaling + a few gadgets to keep the ecu from "seeing" what it should (I've posted a bit about this in the past, it's a very valid solution as long as you are using <14 psi).
 

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Ok. It would be great to hear some experiences for the actual situations. I've been always bit skeptic for the stock ecm sensor data modifiers like piggy back tuners. I am always open to new ideas if they are technically justified and trying to understand here if PCV could give me something more compared to DTT. Boost scaling is one of those reasons because it is little bit modifying gimmick to me. At least accuracy will be degraded when larger pressure scale are presented with narrower even it might work with milder boost levels. However DTT has its limitations here as well. There could be different tables for the boosts.
 

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Ok. It would be great to hear some experiences for the actual situations. I've been always bit skeptic for the stock ecm sensor data modifiers like piggy back tuners. I am always open to new ideas if they are technically justified and trying to understand here if PCV could give me something more compared to DTT. Boost scaling is one of those reasons because it is little bit modifying gimmick to me. At least accuracy will be degraded when larger pressure scale are presented with narrower even it might work with milder boost levels. However DTT has its limitations here as well. There could be different tables for the boosts.
Agreed. That's why I stated <14 psi due to resolution loss when scaling. For the record, there are many vehicles (think GM) that have ran scaled Delphi ECUs for decades. It's when you try to compress too much into too little (3 bar into a 1 bar table!) that you hit the "wall".

One of these days I'll explore the DTT and see what it offers beyond boost referenced tables. I personally get nervous with non-oem ECUs for anything than dedicated race platforms (think reliability....usually not so much with the aftermarket controllers).

I wish Harley used a bit beefier hardware for the ECU they licensed (it's a Delphi MT05 famous for use in crappy Chinese scooters and small boats). The "better" Delphi units have firmware that can support boost referenced tables, but to my knowledge no such thing with the MT05 as it was never designed for any boosted platform...at least that I can discern. Hell, we don't even have a dedicated barometric pressure sensor (the big $.50 would have killed the budget for the EE who designed it apparently).......
 

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I have received advice from you guys who are definitely "in the know" that for my SuperCharger build I should be going with the PCV.

That said, and advice taken...but DynoJet is not giving my Dyno guy (Dan) the feedback he requires and there is slow to little response from their customer service for a SuperCharger application. And now they don't even offer the PCV on their website ever since coming out with the PC6. Dan tells me that the PC6 is a dumbed down PCV and that it won't give me the results I'm looking for. I keep telling him what you guys have told me...that I NEED the ion/knock sensing function of the Delphi unit and that the "piggyback" PCV is the only way to retain this function.

Dan is really pushing the DTT. He is extremely experienced with DTT. He has built Bonneville land-speed bikes using DTT. But he hasn't ever used it on a SuperCharged V-Rod. The owner (Nick) of the Holy-Moto equipped V-Rod that Dan was supposed to have tuned prior to mine has decided to tune it himself with the DTT Autotune because Dan didn't have appointment availability prior to the start of the season here.

So...what should I do? My appointment with Dan isn't until December and in fact I haven't even started my tear-down as I am still waiting on the last two parts I need (a back-ordered pair of 8027K bearings coming from Manchester H-D in England). I am loathe to tear apart a perfectly good stock 2003 without first having all the parts I need to put it back together.

Should I proceed with finding a PCV from an aftermarket seller and try to tune it myself with Autotune since Dan seems unwilling to budge on the DTT issue? Is there another Dyno guy in the NorthEast anyone can recommend who has experience with SuperCharged V-Rods and the PCV?

Sean
Not sure what kind of support you're (or your tuner) is looking for from dj. I have had good success in my dealings with them. No, they aren't the fastest, but they have always answered me.
I am running the TTS sc unit, and I have a boost limiter currently set at 6psi. I run the PCV with AT module. Zero complaints. The unit works VERY well. Initially the problem was the idiot running the software, but the unit did as directed. The learning curve took roughly a season, but all good now. I would HIGHLY recommend it for boosted applications.
I started a few years ago by installing S2 cams, and purchasing a TTS tuner. Took it to a local dyno guru, who charged me 360 to tune it. (At the time I knew very little about tuning, therefore trusted him) When I got the bike back, there was a HUGE flat spot, roughly 3250 to maybe 4500 rpm. Spitting, sputtering, coughing.... just plain crap. (Beginning of learning curve) took it back. Guy said "thats a characistic of the cams, there is nothing can be done". I KNEW that was bullshit, but he wouldn't DO anything, OR give a refund..... So, I found my way here. Begged for someone to help, or give me a copy of their tune (thats not how it works, but I didnt know that then) that works. Eventually, Ron agreed to help tune it. Over the course of that summer, and 100's of tuning runs & cals, we (Ron) got it right. No flat nothin. Ran excellent!!!!!!
So, I decided to go with a sc. Using my past experience as a guide, I was keenly aware that a dyno tune just was NOT gonna be an option. (No skilled tuner anywhere near me, and I dont own my own dyno) so, how???? Looking into it, yes,I looked into the scaling, and in the end I would of had to utilize my TTS tuner along with scaling unit. This method however would require the use of a dyno. (And looking back, it wouldn't of been a one & done deal, as this isn't how it works either) so, wanting to retain the spark knock feature (I've utilized this, looking back in logs & seeing a knock event & therefore can tune it out if needed) and the stock ECM (as I see it, the most reliable unit out there).
So, the only real options left was the PCV or DTT. The DTT also requires the use of a dyno. (Also not a once & done, as this is NOT how it works) so, PCV & Autotune it was. That is the only thing out there that allows street tuning.
So, added wide band O2's to my exhaust & installed the PCV. I then tuned the stock ECM, using the TTS unit, to the bike with the now Jones SCS2 cams. At this time I tuned it with sc NOT installed. Got it running really well in NA configuration. Then I added the sc & tuned using the PCV to handle the boost. Again, the limiting factor here was the idiot running the puter. But, eventually it was figured out ( thanks again Ron) and now the bike runs. Runs VERY VERY well. VERY happy with the result.
I've learned a TON!!!!! And now, looking back, I realize I didn't know what I didnt know. Quite naive 😕...... I can tell by your writing you are me. A few years ago. You know not what you are asking...... but thats ok. It is a LONG and (to me) quite interesting road.
So, thats the jist of my story. Ask whatever you like. And I will tell what I think I know, but don't get pissed if it takes a minute to respond.....
John
 

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I have received advice from you guys who are definitely "in the know" that for my SuperCharger build I should be going with the PCV.

That said, and advice taken...but DynoJet is not giving my Dyno guy (Dan) the feedback he requires and there is slow to little response from their customer service for a SuperCharger application. And now they don't even offer the PCV on their website ever since coming out with the PC6. Dan tells me that the PC6 is a dumbed down PCV and that it won't give me the results I'm looking for. I keep telling him what you guys have told me...that I NEED the ion/knock sensing function of the Delphi unit and that the "piggyback" PCV is the only way to retain this function.

Dan is really pushing the DTT. He is extremely experienced with DTT. He has built Bonneville land-speed bikes using DTT. But he hasn't ever used it on a SuperCharged V-Rod. The owner (Nick) of the Holy-Moto equipped V-Rod that Dan was supposed to have tuned prior to mine has decided to tune it himself with the DTT Autotune because Dan didn't have appointment availability prior to the start of the season here.

So...what should I do? My appointment with Dan isn't until December and in fact I haven't even started my tear-down as I am still waiting on the last two parts I need (a back-ordered pair of 8027K bearings coming from Manchester H-D in England). I am loathe to tear apart a perfectly good stock 2003 without first having all the parts I need to put it back together.

Should I proceed with finding a PCV from an aftermarket seller and try to tune it myself with Autotune since Dan seems unwilling to budge on the DTT issue? Is there another Dyno guy in the NorthEast anyone can recommend who has experience with SuperCharged V-Rods and the PCV?

Sean
Dumbed down is not really correct. It will do everything the PCV does but PV6 as a somewhat easier user software to work with. Likely a few other features most of us will never use as well. DTT is fine but comparing the two is apples and oranges when it comes to available tuning features. Both will get the job done.
Ron
 

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2003VRR - Contact Fuel Moto & explain your intended boost target and see what they suggest, whether it will work without too many trick fk's and how the boost pressure will be measured using a PCV or PC6. They most likely know as much or more as DynoJet does when it comes to tuning forced induction on the Revo, if DynoJet is not really helping you out properly. Good Luck, let us know what they say - (y):cool:
 

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2003VRR - Contact Fuel Moto & explain your intended boost target and see what they suggest, whether it will work without too many trick fk's and how the boost pressure will be measured using a PCV or PC6. They most likely know as much or more as DynoJet does when it comes to tuning forced induction on the Revo, if DynoJet is not really helping you out properly. Good Luck, let us know what they say - (y):cool:
Dynojet have no boost maps, not that you need them since autotune will dial it in from a common edited base cal AFRs to the final calibration for NA or boost . Both PCV and PC6 handle boost. The specific PTI version really isn't needed. It just has a plug for the map sensor where the PCV you add a sensor wire to one of the terminals on the box. Tuning can be done AlphaN (tps) or pressure tuned via a 2 or 3 bar map sensor or a combo of both to get a good low end via tps and mid to top via pressure tables. V twins have a somewhat unstable kpa in the low end for great pressure tuning, which is where the tps low end works better. You do the low end, 0 out the afr table in those rpms/tps area and continue to build pressure fuel trims. No further autotune data will be added to the low end that way, only to pressure points from there up. Pressure tables need to be configured for your boost amount and set the target afr. This can be done basic or fuel tables for each cylinder. Simple, not at first but once you start understanding how it all works , it's an amazing system. If you want simple, DTT is easier to grasp.
Ron
 

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Actually procedure sounds pretty similar than in DTT which is understandable since there is automotive control systems standards and concepts behind both systems. Yes, behind DTT as well!

But what was new to me is that you can really connect 3bar map sensor directly there and it can used without any compression or scaling tricks.

If really so I might give a try some day since I have original Delphi left in shelf. Of course O2-adapter will be needed if 2ch DTT Wego-IIID is not compatible there. However it should since it is wideband and output is standard voltages. And hopefully system does not get pissed of if I do not want to use Delphi oem coils but Energycoils w/o ion sensing.

What is maximum spark advance in PCV? With ethanole it should be a lot.

It could be great to have PCV display on the handle bar and see online what is happening there and change between street and strip cals without having laptop on back pack.

If someone is interested in and want to get better familiar with control systems concepts such as open and closed operation there is good book Automotive Electronics (Eight Edition) by William B. Ribbens available.
 

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Two 2003 VRSCA's: CTHULHU is Black/Sterling, N/A ; EVIL TWIN is Anodized and S/C
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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
This is really helpful stuff guys! Thank you for your detailed explanations! My dyno guy had me buy an American made 3 Bar MAP sensor of the original ACDelco type (which ACDelco is now made in China) that he said would work with the DTT. Since he's super knowledgeable about the DTT I'm going to follow his advice and use that. He will be able to tune out knock he said and I'll be running VP C-16 exclusively on this S/C bike. Again at his directing. I understand what John says about needing multiple tuning sessions. I'm prepared for this idea. Only problem is I'll be getting the bike back from his December dyno session and will have to wait out the winter to street it. Then autotune and probably back to the Dyno?

My final required parts...crank bearings from England arrived yesterday. After MWT I'll hit my shop and start the tear down. I'll be making YouTube videos of the process so I'll probably continue this discussion in my TTS-Performance thread or start a new one where I can link photos and videos to document my progress. This isn't my first complete tear down and rebuild but it is the first V-Rod I will be doing myself.

I got my start with my 2003 Deuce. Tore it down to the frame in 2005 and rebuilt into a 98.6 HP High Torque Combustion Chamber (HTCC) setup. It wasn't hard as most everything I used were direct replacement Screamin' Eagle components. But it was a good start and I did the initial tune myself with the Screamin' Eagle Pro Super Tuner before sending it to the dyno after a 500 mile street break in. I got to over 55K miles on that build before moving on to a 2008 Nightster. But I wish I never let that Deuce go! Guy who bought it is still rocking it.

The Nightster required way more maintenance than just "want to" rebuild like the Deuce. I ended up replacing everything and I mean everything but the frame on that Nightster and then after 66K miles old it to buy my first 2003 VRSCA. In the mean time I was buying $1000 Ironheads and stripping them to part out on eBay. I did 4 of those and have rebuilt one from scratch for a guy who heard I knew what was inside them. His couldn't shift.

Then after my VRSCA was totaled by a drunk driver I took my funds from the insurance payout and have been rebuilding my second 2003 VRSCA CTHULHU as I saw fit. I extracted the engine and took it down to Gowanda Harley-Davidson in 2018 and they built me a nice street-able racing setup. I've been tweaking peripheral things ever since but this season I've got it exactly where I want it. I tuned it myself with ThunderMax and I'm at MWT right now where I hope to win the 1130cc dyno shoot out Saturday. I have no idea what numbers to expect but I'm optimistic. My best drag run this season was an 11.90 at 112 mph with over 0.6 reaction time.

Thanks for helping guys with advice for my S/C 2003 and I will keep y'all posted!

Sean
 
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