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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I applaud Max’s efforts in finding a way to install an intercooler tastefully. Longevity is the key word and adding fuel mileage is a bonus.

I was brain storming and wonder if anyone has considered a new design for the plenum? The link below is the standard Trask plenum.
http://www.1130cc.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=28252&catid=searchresults&searchid=22475

If the plenum had a wider surface area like the RCC pictured below. A water intercooler could be installed inside of the plenum. Of course flow analysis would be required to ensure equal flow to the cylinders. The flow input from the turbo would have to be baffled to ensure smooth flow over the intercooler.
http://www.1130cc.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=20341&catid=searchresults&searchid=22475

The water flow could be controlled by an air powered water pump which uses the turbo pressure. This would adjust the water flow based on boost pressure and provide a linier effect. The cooler could be placed on the side of the bike with a scoop similar to the link below in location and design.
http://www.1130cc.com/gallery/showimage.php?i=6316&catid=searchresults&searchid=22475

The water transfer of the heat will be more efficient. The problem will be the design of the exterior coil to maximize air flow.

The second consideration would be a wet system. The water tank could be mounted in the same location. The breather hose could be rerouted from it’s location at the air filter and dropped in a catch can or simply vented to the ground. No one out their works for the EPA I hope. The water could be injected into the filter housing in front of the turbo.

Just some thoughts put out their for consideration.
 

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If you're goal is to bring the air temps down on a bike, the best choice would be a water/meth/alc injection system, I have a systems that I'm using on two cars with out the use of a IC/FMIC making good power.

There are three Hanhn turbo bikes in my area that are using a WI system, the one had no pinging on a 105 degree (01 Busa 279 HP) day on the dyno.

The air temps on the dyno run (with a small carpet blower fan pointed at the bottom fairing) was 167-173 degree range with out WI, but with WI/meth dropped the air temp by 45-50 degrees range. If you add ice water to the mix in the holding tank, the temps would decrease.

Keep in mind thats it's better to keep as much weight lower on the bike than up top.

Again I am looking for someone to build me a plastic or S/S tank, if some one can help out here.:) Thanks!

I applaud Max's efforts as well, and look forward to seeing what he comes up with, as his Rod looks bad ass, but hate to see an intercooler muck his bike up though.
 

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Back in the day....I had an American Turbopak water/alky injection system on my turbo Kaw. It had an aluminum tank that used the positive pressure of boost to pressurize the tank and force the fluid up into the carb intake horn. No pump to go bad and no "hobbs" switch.

Worked great.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
That sure reduces the chances of mechanical failure. Do you remember what the capacity was of the water tank in comparison to the fuel?
 

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Keep in mind the electronics of today are better than the past, the turbo V Rod is probably is getting more boost PSI compared to the turbo Kaw of the day that was engineerd for more boost, and that Am Turbopak you are refering to was more of a drip compared to the WI kits of today that can deliver high PSI fine misting spray volume of today.

The pump will put out 150 PSI continuous, and turns on and off by a map sensor (No "hobbs" switches used) in this controll unit, also can controll ramp up flow/spray, PSI, time delivery, can be tuned on the fly when riding.

Ueses one jet for (multi stages) the job of two with this controller.

If it the tank runs dry, no problem as there will be no damage to pump, but I will install a float switch with an red LED light on my Rod.

Is there any one that can buid me a tank??
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Bryon, you had posted in the CFM thread you were looking for a tank considering the fuel capacity of the ROD how large does the tank have to be. Also do you have a link to the WI kit you are considering?
 

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The best thing to do is call me @ 703 241 9362 or I could call you for exact spec's.

Ok, here is what I am looking for.

1) Looking for a tank that would mount on/over the black center radiator protective cover, behind the front tire. Same size as the radiator cover, side-to-side and top-to-bottom.

2) The tank should hold 1.5 to 2.0 (2.5 would be nice though) of fluid.

3) The tank should look like it belongs on the V Rod, the bottom area would look like a lower fairing; the right and left sides/outer edges of the tank should fold in "a little" towards the middle, the top of the tank should slope down in the front edge. The bottom should slope down in the back a little to optimize the tank.

4) The tank would have a mounting L-flang on the top rear, to attach/slip over the top part of the black center radiator cover.

5) The tank would be held in at the bottom with brackets, no holes drilled.

6) Need a sight tube on one side.

7) The tank should be made out of stainless-steel or plastic/polly.

8) For my V Rod, I will have the tank Line X'ed/Rino line'd black.
 

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bryon muller said:
The best thing to do is call me @ 703 241 9362 or I could call you for exact spec's.

Ok, here is what I am looking for.

1) Looking for a tank that would mount on/over the black center radiator protective cover, behind the front tire. Same size as the rad. cover side-to-side and top-to-bottom.

2) The tank should hold 1.5 to 2.0 (2.5 would be nice though) of fluid.

3) The tank should look like it belongs on the V Rod, the bottom area would look like a lower fairing, the right and left sides/outer edges of the tank should fold in a little towards the middle, the top of the tank should slope down on the front edge.

4) The tank would have a mounting flang on the top rear, to attach/slip over the top part of the black center radiator cover.

5) The tank would be held in at the bottom with brackets.

6) Need a sight tube on one side.

7) The tank should be made out of stainless steel or plastic/polly.

8) For my V Rod, I will have the tank Line X'ed/Rino line'd black.
So you basically want something like this: http://www.breathlessperformance.com/vrod/catalogItem_CATappearanceITEMlowerAirDam.htm

But made from stainless????
 

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bproulxrod

Yes sir, that's it!

A 2.0 or 2.5 or plastic/polyurothane would be ideal but I'm not spiting hairs here, if not than it has to be S/S because the alky/meth/water siting in an aluminum tank will eat it away and clog up the inline WI filter.

It will not harm the motor, will be cleaning the carbon off the pistons/valves.
I had a 1989 turbo BMW M3 with over 100k hard miles, the valves/pistons looks like the day I put the motor together, and my friend now owns it.

Keep in mind that carbon build is what kills a motor faster than anything, the worst part is when there's a carbon spot on a piston/valve, that's where the crack will most likely accrue.


I'v added some little things; the bottom of the tank should slope down in the rear to optimize the tank, and a slope downwerd at top for looks.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
http://www.waterinjection.info/

Check out the link above. All you would ever want to know about water injection prior to turbos. The place is loaded with information. Just spent four hours their and it was a good start.
 

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Red-Rod

That is a good web site for info, but it takes things to new level on some info.

WI is very simple if you think on what it's suppose to do, all you need to do is replicate a ambient misting like on a realy foggy night, you have two options on kits; 1) A high $$ kit that have a lot of wiring/relays and LED lites and you still have to fab up a way to mount the kit to a bike and there is a tank/holding container that nneds to be made as well, most pumps can not be rebuilt or if they run dry, you will be buying another pump.

2) the lower cost kit that I use, uses a progressive controller unit that has all the electronics built into it for faster install. The pump that I use is bigger than most in size, but can be rebuilt when the time comes, on my turbo rod I will mount the pump on the exhaust bracket studs with a polish stainless steel or chrome, cover around it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
The use of WI is a complicated issue in my opinion. The first question is where to inject the water. The studies look at before the turbo, before the intercooler and after the intercooler. If I chose to use WI it would be to avoid the installation of an intercooler. So that leaves before or after the turbo.

The studies indicate injection before the turbo (PT) has distinct advantages over after the turbo. Injection before the turbo enhances the operation of the turbo and reduces the actual work required to provide the charge. This can result in a 20 to 30 degree change in the charge temperature verses 12 degrees if injected after the turbo. The problem with PT injection is getting the spray atomized. The recommendation is 10 microns which is not readily available. They are using atomization at between 50 and 60 microns. This results in water droplets that are too large in size. As a result these droplets will create damage to the outside edges of the blades on the turbo. The damage occurs on the exterior of the blades since that is the area that is spinning the fastest.

During their experimentation they have developed a method to inject right in front of the turbo at the center nut. By doing this the potential for damage to the blades is greatly reduced. The members in the thread work for GM, Saab and other major manufacturers. They are looking for a solution to increase fuel efficiency, lower operating temperatures and be able to utilize smaller turbos to create the same power.

You cannot simply say it is a good thing in all cases. It depends on the application the turbo is being used in and where it is operating in regards to efficiency. Here is a quote I copied:

Clearly cooling the charge increases density, reduces velocity, and hence pressure losses. This means that, for a given desired intake plenum boost pressure, less work (discharge pressure) is required. This compressor now works less, which means higher efficiency. The improvement is cyclical in nature.

It appears that pre-compressor WI, PCWI, can be a performer or a deterrent to performance. If you already operate in the efficient islands, on a humid day, then cooling charge can move you to lower efficiency on the left. It also leads to huge condensation effect in the IC. So PCWI would have limited usefulness on a properly designed forced induction platform with large stock amounts of charge cooling. But the undersized compressor, operating on a dry day, with excessive air box temps, should benefit big.

From my point of view, I do not share the idealized concept that WI provides quasi-isothermal compression. I believe that all the inefficiencies of non-adiabatic compression are in place even with WI. But naturally the beneficial impact of cooler charge can be seen in my explanation. But I don't believe that WI improves the efficiency of the compressor, from a purist sense. This assumes that there is no appreciable evaporation prior to compressor, as is the case in an axial mount nozzle in front of the nut.

Depending on the design of the Trask Kit the turbo may be less effective with WI injection offsetting any value gained. I doubt that any data is available that can prove or disprove this and field testing will be required.

With injection either before or after the turbo the second issue is when to inject and how much. Their studies show that little is gained in hp when injecting in the lower boost range. Their testing was done with boosts in the 10-15 and up to 25 psi. So the data is a reference but not totally applicable to the VROD. The best cooling results are obtained in the higher boost range of the turbo. That is logical since the most work is done their which translates to heat. However, a big advantage of using water is to preventing detonation which is most likely to occur in the higher torque range. Therefore the torque curve needs to be considered in regards to when WI should occur. Based on this information it appears that WI will have to be controlled by the actual boost applied and regulated in differing amounts based on pressure. A system that simply turns on and off will not provide the best results.

http://www.aquamist.co.uk/index.html

Aquamist (link above) makes systems 2D and 2F that seem up to the task. The 2D ties into the injectors and is self regulating. The 2F is a fully mappable system.

Whatever system is used the MAP will have to be adjusted to reflect the new fuel being injected. The afr for turbo operations under high boost is in the 12.5 range. The additional fuel is added to cool the charge. When water is added (new fuel) the afr will drop. They were seeing an afr in the 10.5 range which resulted in a loss of performance.

That being said the current Trask map has to be analyzed and first adjusted for the particular bike it is installed on. I’m currently researching this and the data can be found in this link> http://www.1130cc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71274
I am not saying the map supplied with the turbo is a bad map. What I do believe is no two installations will be the same. All it takes is an additional bend in a line or rust on a mechanical component to alter the actual conditions.

So once all of the above is figured out the issue becomes where is their room to install the WI system? No matter what concept is used their will be something hanging off of the bike. The systems noted contain a means of alerting you if the injection fails also a low supply warning. If straight water is used it avoids an issue of running out. You can get water almost anywhere. However straight water has too much buoyancy which reduces it’s ability to atomize. A surfactant (soap) can be added to reduce this but what effects will it have on engine components?

There are discussions on many different additives but what I see is required changes to the MAP when you experiment with these. Water reaches its maximum usefulness at 100 percent humidity. When you exceed that amount you loose rather than gain performance. I live in Florida and the humidity levels are 83 percent in the morning and 61 percent in the afternoon so water isn’t going to do me a lot of good.
http://www.cityrating.com/cityhumidity.asp?City=Miami

That would leave me trying to work up a cocktail to inject. I think I will take a lot closer look at a means of installing an intercooler before going any further down this road.
 

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There is one thing that cools the turbo down; take the oil supply line and put an in line oil cooler, I do this to every turbod car, the outside temps of the turbo housing drops about 20-25 degrees.

This is what I will be doing on my V Rod, though I am not sure about the WI jet placment. On the other turbod cars I have after turbo, and I have dynod bought placement have not seen any increase in HP/TQ.

Also keep in mind that turbo placement is the bigest key for performance, on the V Rod the turbo housing/unit is right in the air flow and not in a cramped area with no air fow, for this I will probably put the WI after the turbo.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Turbo oil cooler, Thanks will check into that.
 
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