[freudie1]

I'm working on something very interesting (to me at least).

As some of you may know, the ECU on our bikes (clarify, at least the last generation) is the Delphi MT05.

This ECU has a common function known as "barometric compensation". What this means is the ECU samples barometric pressure (more details in a moment) and then uses that value as a variable in a formula that amongst other variables equates to commanded fuel IPW (injector pulse width....which in turns equates to "injectors spray X amount rate").

So who cares right? You DO if you want to run the Delphi ECU with forced induction on these bikes.

What am I doing about this? 2 things, but let's discuss what REALLY is going on under the covers here:

Our ECU is very basic. As such there is not an dedicated barometric pressure sensor (some ECU's have a map sensor that hangs out in the open and some even have an integrated pressure sensor on the PCB itself). Being that cheap decision was made, the ECU is designed to use the MAP sensor as the source for barometric pressure readings.

"But Jason, how is that possible when the engine is running to use the MAP sensor as a baro pressure sensor?". Ah ha!

So what happens is the ECU samples the map sensor data at key intervals:

1. Key on engine off: That's the "base" baro reading sample.
2. Key on engine on, partial load: This "works" as it's assuming not much more air is being ingested into the engine than current ambient baro pressure (essentially it's "close enough").
3. Key on engine on WOT: This MIGHT be a sample point, though I can't see it being valid due to the aforementioned issue in item #2. From what I have dug up, IF the baro reading at WOT exceeds the baro BASE reading (recall key on engine off) THEN it samples, otherwise it ignores. Some people claim it "reads all the time". I know for a fact that's false (and impossible).

Why is this a dilemma for forced induction users? Simple, you can't use a 1 bar map sensor for boost. So then you install a 2 bar map sensor (not going to get into scaling VE and AFR tables in this post). All is good, EXCEPT now your map voltage values are skewed in the eyes of the ECU which in turn skews the baro readings.

Solutions:

1. The "easiest" is a simple device I built that literally locks the Key on Engine off map voltage to max (approx 5V). However after the engine starts the device no longer alters the MAP sensor voltage and exposes the true 2 BAR map sensor voltage to the ecu. Recall this is the "base" baro reading hence by locking the KEO voltage to max the rest of the above mentioned scenarios will be nulled out since you won't reach the maximum 2 bar map sensor (well this is assuming of course you chose your map sensor wisely and are boosting below approximately 14.7 psi) value while running the bike. Is it ideal? No, you will have a skewed base baro value BUT it's a static value and you can now adjust AFR and VE tables to compensate (something you can't do if you just let the 2 bar map sensor report "as is" to the KEO scenario). FYI: I have/had this working 100%, it's just not user friendly for people not used to working around stock firmware limitations.....

2. There MAY be a "disable baro read" function in this ECU. That's right, it's an OPTION during development and I believe it made it into the production firmware. I am actively working with a dump of the code to locate the switch (if it exists admittedly). If I am right (and usually I am with this stuff...long story I used to own a company that did this type of ECU work) then my solution will allow for a quick "patch" and upload of calibration files (even aftermarket for our ECU files).

So long story short, option 1 works, but option 2 would be ideal (and frankly I favor using actual ecu functionality versus spoofing where possible).

I realize this applies to .000001% of the Vrod owners out there, however I will share the details once I get this solved (or proven that the function never hit production code).

And before anyone asks, there is no way to modify the tables for 2 bar voltage values. Never made it into the code (this ECU was designed for VERY small engines originally with no thought of boost). That's where scaling values comes into play...read my other posts on that (it works).

 

[streetrodracer]

Ok freudie1 I got all that but I just opened my 2nd Friday night beer AND I'm real tired so please don't make me take a test on that tonight ! 😄Sounds like you know what's going on in there and I vaguely remember prior discussions with bits of this in it. And I agree ecu functionality is much preferred to spoofing or " Trick Fking " it into doing something you want it to do. If the DTT had the Ion Sensing Delphi detonation protection in it I'd just go with that but as I've learned here it doesn't so I'll stick with the stock ECU and a PC or PCV with W/B sensors on a N/A engine. I used to love carburetors on my race bikes, and there are no FI ECU computers or data mining involved. Having owned a '79 Merc Capri Turbo with a carburetor, no intercooler ( or a water cooled turbo) I just wouldn't wish that dinosaur on anyone but now I have a MB C300 Turbo that's just the high tech opposite, but I would still like to see what a carburetor would do on this Revo engine in N/A trim. Once you set it up and get the jets, accelerator pump etc. correct it would probably run clean and fast. My Triumph Triple 900cc 3 Cylinder has 3 carbs perfectly jetted ( Dyno Jet kits ) and synced and to be honest runs much better and much smoother than the fuel injected V Rod Twin, in N/A mode. Yes, boosted is a whole 'nother animal and carburetors don't belong in that realm but hey for N/A I'd love to try a double downdraft just to see what would be the end result. Velocity stacks up thru the airbox cover just for fun.

 

[freudie1]

Ok freudie1 I got all that but I just opened my 2nd Friday night beer AND I'm real tired so please don't make me take a test on that tonight ! 😄Sounds like you know what's going on in there and I vaguely remember prior discussions with bits of this in it. And I agree ecu functionality is much preferred to spoofing or " Trick Fking " it into doing something you want it to do. If the DTT had the Ion Sensing Delphi detonation protection in it I'd just go with that but as I've learned here it doesn't so I'll stick with the stock ECU and a PC or PCV with W/B sensors on a N/A engine. I used to love carburetors on my race bikes, and there are no FI ECU computers or data mining involved. Having owned a '79 Merc Capri Turbo with a carburetor, no intercooler ( or a water cooled turbo) I just wouldn't wish that dinosaur on anyone but now I have a MB C300 Turbo that's just the high tech opposite, but I would still like to see what a carburetor would do on this Revo engine in N/A trim. Once you set it up and get the jets, accelerator pump etc. correct it would probably run clean and fast. My Triumph Triple 900cc 3 Cylinder has 3 carbs perfectly jetted ( Dyno Jet kits ) and synced and to be honest runs much better and much smoother than the fuel injected V Rod Twin, in N/A mode. Yes, boosted is a whole 'nother animal and carburetors don't belong in that realm but hey for N/A I'd love to try a double downdraft just to see what would be the end result. Velocity stacks up thru the airbox cover just for fun.

I'd rather eat toilet paper than ever mess with carbs again. Fuel injection is wonderful if used correctly (or sized correctly...which is often not done when guys max out the IDC's of their injectors or flow rate of their pump/regulator/etc).

Case in point, I can go to the track, make my run (while logging), back to the pits sit down analyze the data (IDC's, temps, knock, rpm, etc etc etc) and know EXACTLY where to make changes in the fuel and spark tables without pulling plugs, changing jets, hell not even having to remove an air filter. When I was a kid this was all fantasy. Now you can do what I just said and have a tuner half way across the world upload changes to your ECU (not our bike, but some vehicles/ecus, etc) while you are at the track. Technology is a good thing sometimes (not to mention I have enough to worry about when I tune, this takes some of the old school "fun" out of the equation).

 

[streetrodracer]

Clean or soiled toilet paper freudie 1 ? Yes, no doubt EFI is the ultimate fueling system , especially in boosted and racing engines however the difficulty of getting educated on it enough to be smarter than the system to have the personal capability to truly be able to do what you want with it is daunting for most guys. Again most should seek out professional help and pay the man that knows his stuff to dyno test and adjust their bike properly - this is best for most weekend warrior V Rod guys. I remember when the V Rod first came out guys said you couldn't install a more open aftermarket exhaust because there was no way to adjust the ECU yet - I thought that was pretty frigging funny riding a simple three carbureted Triumph triple with jets - It's like TV's remember when the power went out in the old days ? TV came back on by itself - now it knocks out the Wi-Fi, TV and possibly cable box, roku, booster etc. - hell it takes 30 minutes to boot it all up again. Stupid. Too many work arounds and stretches for the stock Delphi system to handle 180 - 200 Hp, high overlap cams etc. what we need is a V Rod electrics friendly boost capable DTT type system with ION or some other knock sensing built in ready for whatever boost or big cam you got - correct me if I'm wrong but that's just not available turn key for us. It should be, it would greatly speed up the tuning process for guys that might not be fueling wizards like yourself freudie1 - just think how many manhours you got learning all of what you know now - I'll bet thousands of hours thinking about it even in your sleep ! -

 

[leigh vrod]

I'm working on something very interesting (to me at least).

As some of you may know, the ECU on our bikes (clarify, at least the last generation) is the Delphi MT05.

This ECU has a common function known as "barometric compensation". What this means is the ECU samples barometric pressure (more details in a moment) and then uses that value as a variable in a formula that amongst other variables equates to commanded fuel IPW (injector pulse width....which in turns equates to "injectors spray X amount rate").

So who cares right? You DO if you want to run the Delphi ECU with forced induction on these bikes.

What am I doing about this? 2 things, but let's discuss what REALLY is going on under the covers here:

Our ECU is very basic. As such there is not an dedicated barometric pressure sensor (some ECU's have a map sensor that hangs out in the open and some even have an integrated pressure sensor on the PCB itself). Being that cheap decision was made, the ECU is designed to use the MAP sensor as the source for barometric pressure readings.

"But Jason, how is that possible when the engine is running to use the MAP sensor as a baro pressure sensor?". Ah ha!

So what happens is the ECU samples the map sensor data at key intervals:

1. Key on engine off: That's the "base" baro reading sample.
2. Key on engine on, partial load: This "works" as it's assuming not much more air is being ingested into the engine than current ambient baro pressure (essentially it's "close enough").
3. Key on engine on WOT: This MIGHT be a sample point, though I can't see it being valid due to the aforementioned issue in item #2. From what I have dug up, IF the baro reading at WOT exceeds the baro BASE reading (recall key on engine off) THEN it samples, otherwise it ignores. Some people claim it "reads all the time". I know for a fact that's false (and impossible).

Why is this a dilemma for forced induction users? Simple, you can't use a 1 bar map sensor for boost. So then you install a 2 bar map sensor (not going to get into scaling VE and AFR tables in this post). All is good, EXCEPT now your map voltage values are skewed in the eyes of the ECU which in turn skews the baro readings.

Solutions:

1. The "easiest" is a simple device I built that literally locks the Key on Engine off map voltage to max (approx 5V). However after the engine starts the device no longer alters the MAP sensor voltage and exposes the true 2 BAR map sensor voltage to the ecu. Recall this is the "base" baro reading hence by locking the KEO voltage to max the rest of the above mentioned scenarios will be nulled out since you won't reach the maximum 2 bar map sensor (well this is assuming of course you chose your map sensor wisely and are boosting below approximately 14.7 psi) value while running the bike. Is it ideal? No, you will have a skewed base baro value BUT it's a static value and you can now adjust AFR and VE tables to compensate (something you can't do if you just let the 2 bar map sensor report "as is" to the KEO scenario). FYI: I have/had this working 100%, it's just not user friendly for people not used to working around stock firmware limitations.....

2. There MAY be a "disable baro read" function in this ECU. That's right, it's an OPTION during development and I believe it made it into the production firmware. I am actively working with a dump of the code to locate the switch (if it exists admittedly). If I am right (and usually I am with this stuff...long story I used to own a company that did this type of ECU work) then my solution will allow for a quick "patch" and upload of calibration files (even aftermarket for our ECU files).

So long story short, option 1 works, but option 2 would be ideal (and frankly I favor using actual ecu functionality versus spoofing where possible).

I realize this applies to .000001% of the Vrod owners out there, however I will share the details once I get this solved (or proven that the function never hit production code).

And before anyone asks, there is no way to modify the tables for 2 bar voltage values. Never made it into the code (this ECU was designed for VERY small engines originally with no thought of boost). That's where scaling values comes into play...read my other posts on that (it works).

great read we have been using the factory ecu with all our boosted bikes has anyone ran a 3 bar suscsefully or a 2.5 we could not get it to work right

 

[Jan-Dirk]

The problems stopped after I installed Daytona Twintec VRFI III

 

[streetrodracer]

DTT is probably best ECU for boosted engines to cut to the chase - no ION knock detect and timing rollback but if its tuned to perfection running high octane gas or alcohol I understand not a big problem -

 

[rbabos]

DTT is probably best ECU for boosted engines to cut to the chase - no ION knock detect and timing rollback but if its tuned to perfection running high octane gas or alcohol I understand not a big problem -

Depends. No boost cals available, so you have to build one as you go and if one plans on road tuning boost and no knock sensing, you could end up with a garbage engine by the time it's tuned. No PVC boost cals either but I still prefer PCV for boost as ion sensing remains in play.
Ron

 

[streetrodracer]

I'd much rather have the ION knock sensing and timing rollback function on Delphi ECU on a street ridden bike - but the DTT might get your average boosted V Rod rider / racer up & running faster, and I would hope there are some prepopulated DTT fueling cell maps that a guy could start with to avoid lean mixture engine damage while fine tuning the engine - tricking the Delphi ECU to handle boost properly seems like a daunting task for your average guy -

 

[freudie1]

I'd much rather have the ION knock sensing and timing rollback function on Delphi ECU on a street ridden bike - but the DTT might get your average boosted V Rod rider / racer up & running faster, and I would hope there are some prepopulated DTT fueling cell maps that a guy could start with to avoid lean mixture engine damage while fine tuning the engine - tricking the Delphi ECU to handle boost properly seems like a daunting task for your average guy -

I have no idea why anyone would use the DTT on these bikes unless you have the older generation that didn't have O2 sensors OR you are running boost beyond 14 psi. The stock ECU is used very extensively for racing in Australia. Why not so much here is likely due to the marketing of DTT and Thundermax.

What's even funnier is I know of approximately 3 people (all on this forum) that run beyond 14 psi successfully (requires extensive engine modifications and even then they seem to rebuild once a year after another catastrophic failure).

 

[mukle]

Amen. God bless!

 

[streetrodracer]

Freudie 1 - with all due respect -

What does the lack of narrow band O2 sensor capability have to do with the need for using a DTT ? PCV & WB's ?

Can you plug wide band O2 sensors into a late model narrow band O2 sensor ECU bike, & run them to tune it properly ?

DTT allows amazing tuning for a guy that hasn't the time for trick fking the rudimentary Delphi ECU into accepting big boost - so be it - Yea, ION knock sensing would be great, but it's not absolutely necessary. Lets get over it.

Why is it "funny" that a rebuild is required each season for an engine that's getting 250-300 hp out of an 1130-1250cc engine when you call that " running beyond 14 psi successfully " ? Funny ? NO. I'd say that's commendable and the expected price of extracting that much power out of that small of a displacement in the Revo 2 cylinder V Twin engine architecture. Amazing testament to the original robustness of the stock engine.

That's basically 222 - 240 hp per 1000cc - pretty damn stout in anyone's book. My 6.0L LS2 would be making 1440 Hp !

Yea, I'd be expecting to be ripping into that engine once a year for one reason or another. Hand Grenade. Expected. Shit Happens.

 

[mukle]

First hand experience is so over rated these days. When have played multiple ecm's with boosted applications it will be soon understood that O2 and ion sensing are not comparable to each other. First is proactive and second is reactive way to deal with different situations.

And yes - no pain no gain. When going to limits there good chance to get some shit in the turbine. But this is exactly why many likes this hobby. If this would be easy everyone could do this. I don't mind ripping engine every 10K and rebuild it stronger than ever. It is part of the business. It evolves every time.

One thing more. Building and riding a motorcycle is not so serious

 

[streetrodracer]

One day the patent will most likely run out on the ION knock sensing system then all aftermarket systems will be able to use that if they so choose. Then throw old Delphi ECM in the trash where it belongs for boosted applications. If a guy was motivated I'm sure there are knock sensors that could be adapted and installed on boosted bikes now with aftermarket ECM's to pull timing, more time, more money and research though.
Not sure if dedicated race bikes would need that if fuel quality and tuning is watched closely for short runs but heat soaked street bikes with gas station gas ? Yes it would be a safeguard.
Yes these machines should bring happiness to the rider/builder. It's great pride to ride & race the bike that you've personally modified. I do tedious difficult work on jets all the time, so I don't want to all spend my off time doing the same thing on my M/C, it needs to be able to be ridden reliably to bring me stress relief - having said that looking forward to building my stage 2 engine when retired soon - I'll probably go with the PCV with wide bands to retain the ION Knock sensing for street gas, instead of DTT that I originally was going to use. Keep up the good work on the Mad Scientist big power engines, it's very commendable - and interesting !

 

[freudie1]

Freudie 1 - with all due respect -

What does the lack of narrow band O2 sensor capability have to do with the need for using a DTT ? PCV & WB's ?

Can you plug wide band O2 sensors into a late model narrow band O2 sensor ECU bike, & run them to tune it properly ?

Older Delphi ECUs (I believe before 2008 and older) don't support the TargetTune kit for the Powervision. This results in the inability to run native WBO sensors with their ecu. If you have the newer ecu, just run a Powervision to tune and the TT module to run native WBO plus full time closed loop.

DTT allows amazing tuning for a guy that hasn't the time for trick fking the rudimentary Delphi ECU into accepting big boost - so be it - Yea, ION knock sensing would be great, but it's not absolutely necessary. Lets get over it.

Agree to disagree. The DTT is a garbage unit (the hardware is low end, the components are straight up ancient, quality is not even close to oem unit...I can go on). Also the lack of ANY knock sensing when you go aftermarket on these bikes is a nightmare. I wouldn't feel confident touching the timing tables tuning these bikes without some sort of knock detection logging. Add in forced induction where timing retard in relation to boost is critical. I suspect there have been a decent amount of ash tray Revos created due to this philosophy. Even my ancient 80's turbo Dodge's had knock detection (old school acoustic sensors!) that I could use to log knock counts when adjusting timing tables. Let me just put it this way....just because SOME people got lucky without it doesn't mean it's a good idea. I'm done ranting about this topic, I have shared more than I care to on this forum as clearly my experience isn't really desired (and that is OK, just done with this topic).

Why is it "funny" that a rebuild is required each season for an engine that's getting 250-300 hp out of an 1130-1250cc engine when you call that " running beyond 14 psi successfully " ? Funny ? NO. I'd say that's commendable and the expected price of extracting that much power out of that small of a displacement in the Revo 2 cylinder V Twin engine architecture. Amazing testament to the original robustness of the stock engine.

That's basically 222 - 240 hp per 1000cc - pretty damn stout in anyone's book. My 6.0L LS2 would be making 1440 Hp !

Yea, I'd be expecting to be ripping into that engine once a year for one reason or another. Hand Grenade. Expected. Shit Happens.

Easy with the hostility, I was stating that as a reference for the "average" person wanting to run boost on a Revo. In other words, I would venture to say 99.9% of all boosted Revos are 14 psi or under. In that case Delphi ECU is the way to go. If you want to go above that expect to be rebuilding these engines. They clearly aren't up to the task of reliable high boost...not a slam, just the truth. Key word reliable. Below 14 psi? Very doable.

Bottom line: Tuning isn't for the beginner especially when running boost and trying to keep it streetable and RELIABLE. I used to offer tuning for some very popular GM vehicles back in the day. Amazing the ignorance and destruction I saw. Glad to be done with that.

 

[streetrodracer]

Freudie 1 - Correct me if I'm wrong - a guy can run PCV and wide bands on an older ECU - that's my plan, currently ( vs my older DTT plan ) so I can retain ION knock sensing for street gas use.

Agreed low boost retain Delphi ECU & ION sensing. It's still not "funny" ( improper term is all ) that a 14 - 23+ PSI Big power mad scientist engine has to be freshened up or rebuilt after making metal or a failure every season or two. Standard procedure for the builder when getting over 220 Hp per Liter out of Revo V twin engines. Old tech jet engines had 300 Hour overhauls to avoid bearing failures, I know a guy that died when he lost his jet engine bearings after an airshow bc he exceeded that proactive mx. If you're going to be dumb you better be tough ! But winter downtime allows big boost Revo engine work, so it's not a big deal for the hobby of Big Hp.

Big question is would these engines last much longer if the knock system was active ? Most 300+ Hp boosted Revos run Alcohol for Octane and cooling effect so not as big a deal for knock suppression as street gas station engines over 14 psi - those need some kind of a knock sensor system, and I'm sure street gas engines would last longer, so is there anyway to install acoustic knock sensors on these engines using a DTT or T Max ECU and pull timing ? Or is 2 or 3 bar sensor and Delphi ECU with your patch so "disable baro read" is active still a better approach ? Did you determine if that's actually inside the ECU yet ?

 

[freudie1]

Freudie 1 - Correct me if I'm wrong - a guy can run PCV and wide bands on an older ECU - that's my plan, currently ( vs my older DTT plan ) so I can retain ION knock sensing for street gas use.

Ron or Mike on this board are the ones to ask about the piggyback units (I have no experience with those on this bike).

I'm referring to integrated WBO and the ECU, only the newer ECU with the TT module give you that (and full time closed loop).

Agreed low boost retain Delphi ECU & ION sensing. It's still not "funny" ( improper term is all ) that a 14 - 23+ PSI Big power mad scientist engine has to be freshened up or rebuilt after making metal or a failure every season or two. Standard procedure for the builder when getting over 220 Hp per Liter out of Revo V twin engines. Old tech jet engines had 300 Hour overhauls to avoid bearing failures, I know a guy that died when he lost his jet engine bearings after an airshow bc he exceeded that proactive mx. If you're going to be dumb you better be tough ! But winter downtime allows big boost Revo engine work, so it's not a big deal for the hobby of Big Hp.

When trying to achieve 2X + horsepower on an essentially stock block yes I agree rebuilds are likely expected. Once again, my point was in reference to using the Delphi ECU and streetable/reliable horsepower applications with the Revo. All bets off at those levels.

Big question is would these engines last much longer if the knock system was active ? Most 300+ Hp boosted Revos run Alcohol for Octane and cooling effect so not as big a deal for knock suppression as street gas station engines over 14 psi - those need some kind of a knock sensor system, and I'm sure street gas engines would last longer, so is there anyway to install acoustic knock sensors on these engines using a DTT or T Max ECU and pull timing ? Or is 2 or 3 bar sensor and Delphi ECU with your patch so "disable baro read" is active still a better approach ? Did you determine if that's actually inside the ECU yet ?

Doubtful, the issues they are having are much more than knock issues (though without a system to detect it all we can go by are the dissection pictures of pistons/walls/etc).

I have heard of aftermarket knock detection systems, though I have never personally played with one. I can tell you it's a black art to tune such systems as you need to spend a good amount of time analyzing frequencies that correlate to actual knock in an effort to avoid "phantom" knock detection (of course this is all based on acoustic sensor based systems). No idea if in the high end (Motec?) world you can use something more sophisticated, but at that point you are well off the deep end in terms of money.

As for the disable baro option in the Delphi......still haven't cracked that nugget. The path I was going hit a dead end (read: tight lips), BUT I don't really need that with the device I designed to fool the ECU. Still would rather do it natively....only so many things I can solve in a year unfortunately.