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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #21 ·
@freudie1 thanks for the advice on the KR I will definitely run with it on in the future.
I do not log AFR but strongly considering it, my TTS flight recorder is the old fashioned blue box, though the newer green box has analog inputs for O2 inputs, so as it regards my current setup, I'm using base U4 configuration with out customized tuning, I know that's another strike against me with another grenade to juggle.

@streetrodracer, I'll pay close attention to bead size when I apply sealant those round, I think I'm pretty frugal with it.
Pinning the bearing couldn't hurt. I only use the idiot light for oil pressure, but I change from a 5psi to a 10 psi switch for a slight heads-up warning if I have a sprocket bolt loosen, I'm pretty sure I did not have a oil light though, but is heat of a pass, I'm not looking at that., maybe an audible alarm might be helpful (LOL)
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
I looked through my TTS tuning archives.

I switched off the Knock Retard in the tune dated 9/12/2021, ran it that way on this last race day of the 2021 season. I never changed it back at the start of the 2022 season, so a total of 18 passes operating under that condition!

I think this is a big contributor to my failed bearing(s), which I suspect is one or both rod bearings. Working on disassembly tonight to find exactly what failed.
 

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TMH - Noel - What fuel are you running and Octane ? I would think if you had detonation it will be evident in the pistons on your teardown. Also does your Destroyer still have the ION sensing and spark retard active like a regular V Rod ? If so I would think it would pull timing ( regardless whether you were logging knocks or not ) or are you saying the knock retard was completely shut off in your fall tune and not operational at all since ?
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
Totally OFF, see post 18 graphic, does the Ion Sensing function work with surface gap plugs used on Destroyers?

I spent this evening stripping the bike of al the small stuff in preparation to pull the engine, my buddy will be over in the late morning to lend me a hand getting it out and onto the engine stand.

We will know tomorrow evening.

BTW U4.4 race fuel by VP

Font Circle Number Screenshot Logo



 

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Totally OFF, see post 18 graphic, does the Ion Sensing function work with surface gap plugs used on Destroyers?

I spent this evening stripping the bike of al the small stuff in preparation to pull the engine, my buddy will be over in the late morning to lend me a hand getting it out and onto the engine stand.

We will know tomorrow evening.

BTW U4.4 race fuel by VP
Ion sensing system works with essentially the oem plug for the street bikes only (too tired to look up what stock is right now but you get the point.).

WHO turned off ion sensing? Was it a tuner besides yourself? If so, that usually is done because of suspected "phantom knock" (broken record time!). Can I see your timing table? Are the spark advance values extreme? With that high of octane fuel detonation would be very unlikely unless someone got very happy with the timing tables in the hunt for "mo powah!".

Curious to see the tear down results, that should tell all.

Slinks back to garage to work on kid's pos Honda timing belt fiasco....
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #26 · (Edited)
I turned off myself, on a whim thinking it might help (LOL) NOT......

These are the stock settings designated for U4 fuel.
Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Line


NOTE this is the rear, TTS flaw in program say's it is front but it's not
Colorfulness Product Rectangle Slope Font
 

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I agree hard to imagine that much detonation happened with 106 Octane and caused rod bearings to be beaten out - seriously doubtful I don't think your turning spark retard off caused it Noel - so don't beat yourself up any more. :) 27 & 28.5 degrees of ignition advance - is that standard setting for the Destroyer engine ? If so hard to believe it was really detonating unless the tune was super lean - unlikely. I'm thinking a spun bearing caused the whole failure due to low OP to the rods - as you thought initially - crank might be toast but I hope not ! Best of Luck can't wait to see what you find on the teardown - (y):cool:
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
For a few weeks, I ran C25 fuel in 2021 (early) this is the TTS map for C25 fuel
FRONT
Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Material property

REAR
Colorfulness Rectangle Slope Font Parallel
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
It's a mystery, another VROD racing friend thinks my old design oil pump, you know the one that tends to cavitate at high RPM's is part of the problem, I'm on a hunt for the newer design which is suppose to reduce the potential for that problem
 

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Yes the '08 & up pump works better at high Rpm like racing but not as well at lower - mid Rpm like street riding - I've been on the fence whether to go to the new design oil pump on the engine build for my R street ridden bike but in the meantime few years ago I removed the oil filter and installed a K & P performance stainless steel 35 Micron mesh filter that is removeable, cleanable, reuseable. Engine gets instant oil pressure on startup and very difficult to go into by-pass with cold oil. IMHO when you remove the paper filter restriction back pressure it raises the stall Rpm of the pump quite a bit. Not sure if you run a paper filter but on a race bike I'd run the mesh filter since it can go from cool / cold oil to full Rpm operation in a short period of time. You might be best off with new design oil pump and a mesh filter, best of both worlds for a high Rpm race engine -
 

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Yeahhhhhhhhhhh. I hate being right in these situations. Goes right along with the "quality" HD exudes in their assembly processes (think head bearing lube or lack thereof).

I'm sure you know this by now, but red loctite is your friend when reassembling that (after your rebuild of course).

It must be that time of year....I've got a POS Honda Accord (kid's) that I bought used and spent a week after purchasing it doing general maintenance + timing belt/balancer belt/tensioner/water pump/seals.....3 months later? Balancer belt snaps, timing belt survives but is off by a ton of teeth, CPS sensor trashed. I spend a night tearing the timing components apart. Prognosis? I went "cheap" and bought a Chinesium timing belt kit off Ebay. Yeah....that didn't work out so well. Spent the next day putting it all back together with OEM belts. Engine won't turn over more than half a revolution by hand. Valves bent to hell. Now I get to spend all weekend tearing off the head, replacing head, putting timing shit back on.

I hate working on shit like this, I feel your pain.
 

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Noel
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Discussion Starter · #36 · (Edited)
Yeahhhhhhhhhhh. I hate being right in these situations. Goes right along with the "quality" HD exudes in their assembly processes (think head bearing lube or lack thereof).

I'm sure you know this by now, but red loctite is your friend when reassembling that (after your rebuild of course).
I have lost faith in blue loctite, I will definitely go red this round.
As clean as the tread appears in the photo, I did use blue, but it's not up to the task.
 

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Yea, there it is the "Achilles heel" of the Revolution Engine - brilliant V Twin with a major potential flaw - didn't think it was detonation, fuel octane too high, tune probably close to ideal. Have you been able to see if it spun a main bearing yet from no or low/intermittent oil pressure ? If crank is toast from rods beating it up ? Race engine should have some kind of low oil pressure aural/visual warning system like a visible gauge from the pilots position that turns red below 10 Psi plus a warning buzzer goes off - in an ideal world an ignition interrupter that goes into limp mode and rolls the engine back to prevent damage ( but yea, that system might create more operational problems ). I've got a list of tips and watch-out items like this that I've created over the past few years from this site that I'll refer to when I finally build my new engine so I don't miss anything - right now I'm mending from an eye operation so can't see out of one eye, no engine tear downs for me anytime soon. Noel best of luck getting this engine repaired and back together, keep us updated - it's a major setback but I'm sure you'll persevere !!!! (y):cool:
 

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That triple sprocket retaining bolt and washer should have a mechanical lock to the triple sprocket since the separate bolt & washer can spin independently of the triple sprocket - maybe the washer pinned to the gear with a roll pin and the bolt secured to the washer by a bend up lock tab washer with a bottom tang in a hole in the washer. I see this type of bend up tab washer used on jet engines all the time - very effective. Red locktite has worked, but it's not infallible, any oil on the threads of the bolt or intermediate shaft or loose thread fit can affect it's retention strength. If the bolt and washer were one piece a simple roll pin into the triple sprocket would do it.

Also - isn't the oil pump is driven off the end of the crankshaft, by the primary gear ? - if the triple sprocket bolt gets loose and the intermediate shaft gets loose it backs out of the water pump, not the oil pump, so how does the oil pressure go to o psi from a loose triple sprocket bolt ? Wouldn't the engine just overheat from no coolant flow ? I would think the primary root problem is oil pump failure and/or crank bearing spun cutting off oil to the rods as Noel mentioned earlier. Triple sprocket bolt is a secondary failure. Revo engines have been known to run with loose/missing triple sprocket bolts, if the intermediate shaft just happens to stay engaged in water pump, and oil pressure is not affected since it's driven off the crank. Am I missing / forgot something here ? :unsure:
 

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That triple sprocket retaining bolt and washer should have a mechanical lock to the triple sprocket since the separate bolt & washer can spin independently of the triple sprocket - maybe the washer pinned to the gear with a roll pin and the bolt secured to the washer by a bend up lock tab washer with a bottom tang in a hole in the washer. I see this type of bend up tab washer used on jet engines all the time - very effective. Red locktite has worked, but it's not infallible, any oil on the threads of the bolt or intermediate shaft or loose thread fit can affect it's retention strength. If the bolt and washer were one piece a simple roll pin into the triple sprocket would do it.

Also - isn't the oil pump is driven off the end of the crankshaft, by the primary gear ? - if the triple sprocket bolt gets loose and the intermediate shaft gets loose it backs out of the water pump, not the oil pump, so how does the oil pressure go to o psi from a loose triple sprocket bolt ? Wouldn't the engine just overheat from no coolant flow ? I would think the primary root problem is oil pump failure and/or crank bearing spun cutting off oil to the rods as Noel mentioned earlier. Triple sprocket bolt is a secondary failure. Revo engines have been known to run with loose/missing triple sprocket bolts, if the intermediate shaft just happens to stay engaged in water pump, and oil pressure is not affected since it's driven off the crank. Am I missing / forgot something here ? :unsure:
Some fool designer missed the memo of rotational loads and thread direction. That bolt should have been left hand from day one but oh no, they ran with this design defect all through the production years. I see Fredy-ee with his Sprintex kit has a new intermediate shaft using a longer engaged left hand threaded triple bolt.
Ron
 

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Ron I'd agree but now that I think about it doesn't the triple sprocket turn CCW like the crankshaft ? if so it's constantly tightening itself on the TS bolt - if it's a left hand thread wouldn't it be trying to unwind itself off the TS bolt ? In any event and IMHO that TS bolt needs a positive mechanical lock plus red locktite to stay secure, especially if driving a S/C off the end of it - not sure exactly what Fredy-ee did with a left hand thread TS bolt but I'm sure he thought it out, so maybe I'm looking at the rotations backwards ? :unsure:
 
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