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Discussion Starter #1
Quick summary for the important stuff that I do not think has been hit on.

COMPRESSION RELEASES

Not sure if anybody has noticed but the 08 1250's no longer have Compression Releases on the cams. They claim it is due to the larger battery since 07.

SLIPPER CLUTCH

Clutch basket is the same but the plates, hub, lifter plate, and pressure plate are different. These will retrofit to older models. Uses 4 clutch springs instead of 5 and requires a different clutch hub holder for removal.

HEAD GASKETS

New shape and material. Will not retro fit to older 1250's.

CLOSED LOOP EFI

O2 sensors are located in head pipes. Front and rear.

REAR SPROCKET

Changed to use the 25mm bearing and axle.
 

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Thanks for the overview
 

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Color me Gone
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PUREBRAD said:
Closed loop EFI is a great benefit. Now you'll be able to slap new pipes on and not have to fiddle with fuel programs.
I don't know yet for sure but my guess is that these are not wideband sensors so they won't be able to make huge changes without being remapped. You still have to have the right base for the 02 sensors to work off of.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
PUREBRAD said:
Closed loop EFI is a great benefit. Now you'll be able to slap new pipes on and not have to fiddle with fuel programs.
Don't count on that. There will not be enough adjust room for changes like that. Look at the Dynas and modern cars.
 

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Shelby Stanga Rocks
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PUREBRAD said:
Closed loop EFI is a great benefit. Now you'll be able to slap new pipes on and not have to fiddle with fuel programs.
It is a very limited correction closed loop. It may cover topless or some other minor performance enhacemant. I doubt it has enough correction to make up for a CFR or Thunderheader. May correct for modified SE pipes.
 

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Closed loop WILL NOT correct enough for a pipe !! Others are correct that the way a closed loop system is implemented you will still need to modify fuel.

What no one has touched on is the diagnostic system that GOES ALONG with the new "Closed Loop" system.

While some fuel correction is available during closed loop, other modes are not closed loop. Such as wide open throttle. And while the correction from the closed loop mode is also used to correct at WOT, it may not be a linear relationship vs. the offset "learned".

The diagnostics will expect certain values at specific speed and load points, so while the fuel may learn minor variations ( such as production tolerances for injectors and air rate ), with larger changes you will get more CHECK ENGINE lights. And while those fault codes are set and/or setting, some codes will have consequences. And you will not be able to disable diagnostic codes with after market devices. The anti-tamper regs are going to apply to motorcycles just as they do to cars.

What many folks have yet to grasp, even with cars systems, is when a fault is detected, and when a Fault codes lights a check engine light,are not always the same. And while a fault IS detected the software sometimes goes into a "Protection Mode" even before the light is set. To save a catalytic converter fuel and spark can change. The values choosen for that mode is not to optimize the engine but merely to save a converter.
It will be much more difficult to modify a closed loop SYSTEM ( without going to a stand alone ECM ) than it is presently !!!! And still have a properly running engine.
 

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o2man98 said:
Quick summary for the important stuff that I do not think has been hit on.

COMPRESSION RELEASES

Not sure if anybody has noticed but the 08 1250's no longer have Compression Releases on the cams. They claim it is due to the larger battery since 07.

SLIPPER CLUTCH

Clutch basket is the same but the plates, hub, lifter plate, and pressure plate are different. These will retrofit to older models. Uses 4 clutch springs instead of 5 and requires a different clutch hub holder for removal.

HEAD GASKETS

New shape and material. Will not retro fit to older 1250's.

CLOSED LOOP EFI

O2 sensors are located in head pipes. Front and rear.

REAR SPROCKET

Changed to use the 25mm bearing and axle.
That's great info , where are you able to get such detailed info.
 

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Max said:
I don't know yet for sure but my guess is that these are not wideband sensors so they won't be able to make huge changes without being remapped. You still have to have the right base for the 02 sensors to work off of.
Thats interesting. I didn't realize that HD's closed loop system will only compensate so much for different conditions.

Why would it be designed that way?

On my new BMW (motorcycle) you can simply change the pipe and the computer will adjust for the lean condition created by the lesser backpressure.
 

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20 Eyes in my Head
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PUREBRAD said:
Thats interesting. I didn't realize that HD's closed loop system will only compensate so much for different conditions.

Why would it be designed that way?

On my new BMW (motorcycle) you can simply change the pipe and the computer will adjust for the lean condition created by the lesser backpressure.
I believe it is because of Harley's new "noise and EPA friendly" policy....due to EPA and tree hugger politicking....hence the scrapping of many Screamin Eagle performance goodies eg...16ga and SE slip ons. This is just my guess anyways.
 

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Color me Gone
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PUREBRAD said:
Thats interesting. I didn't realize that HD's closed loop system will only compensate so much for different conditions.

Why would it be designed that way?

On my new BMW (motorcycle) you can simply change the pipe and the computer will adjust for the lean condition created by the lesser backpressure.
I wouldn't push that too far on that theory, it is the same as every auto manufacture that I am aware of. I don't know any car or motorcycle company that has wideband built into the closed loop system. If your pipe was a big change on your BMW I still suggest getting the AFR checked to make sure your good.

Most use what is called a block learn system, meaning it has cell tables that shift automatic. However the block learn needs to have the proper base set to start with as the fuel and block shift can only be so great without programming the change into the ecm. Another thing to keep in mind is with a block learn system that every time the ecm powers down for a period of time the block learn will shift to what is a nuetral point usally 128 or so and the first 30-50 miles are back to a learning curve again.
 

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SNAFU
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:them:

The BMW system DOES NOT compensate for pipes. It does, however, control the AFR to keep the catalytic converter you have in the safe zone, exactly like the systems do for your modern car.

If you make major changes to the exhaust or the intake you will move outside the bounds of modern narrow band close loop systems quickly. For the older BMW's like the K1200RS there were chips you could add to the Motronic "brain". The new system on the K1200S/R has only one supplier that can modify the internals, Rapidbike (http://www.rapidbike.co.uk/).

To tune the Harley closed loop system you must use the Race Tuner. You put the bike into open loop mode, modify the AFR target tables and measure AFR (using whatever method at your disposal). You then make changes to the VE tables until it's right. Once you're happy then you put the bike back into closed loop mode and reset the target AFR tables to the closed loop settings. It's explained in detail in the new RT software.

The H-D closed loop system is only there to optimize AFR at light to moderate throttle cruise for emissions AND to create the optimum environment for a catalytic converter that I'm sure our bikes will have in the not too distant future.
 

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You guys are correct, these closed loop systems can only handle very small changes and will still require custom tuning/SERT or PCIII with mods... And yes cats are coming in the future along with laws that make removing them illegal...

Welcome to check-engine light hell...
 

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where's the freakin Excedrin?.........
 

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20 Eyes in my Head
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There will always be ways around this....legally or illegally...and who knows how hard the will enforce it. A good example is using Harley's "Race Only" exhausts on your street bikes. Technically that is an illegal alteration (I believe, correct me if I am mistaken).

Anyways, I think a mountain is being made of a mole hill on this EPA stuff. May take a minute to get around some stuff, but unless you do everything to the fullest extent of the "legal" letter, I wouldn't worry.
 

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DungeonWorks said:
There will always be ways around this....legally or illegally...and who knows how hard the will enforce it. A good example is using Harley's "Race Only" exhausts on your street bikes. Technically that is an illegal alteration (I believe, correct me if I am mistaken).
Gary if you live in an area like I do that supports IM240 there really is no fooling the system unless someone cheats for you. With IM 240 the state plugs into the aldl data link and anything the ecm has in it is transfered to the state as far as codes and other data. Now some people think they can power down and power up the ecm to correct codes that take a while to set. Ecms use what is called a flag system for IM240. THat means that you must drive so far and test all the systems before enough flags are checked for the system to pass IM240. Trust me there is no way to remove a cat and have it pass since all cars use aft and post O2 sensors. If the second sensor reads the same as the first the system knows the cat is either failed or removed. Now many areas still don't run IM240 and without it the system can be fooled but in time I think either IM240 or some other standard will be in place nation wide. IMHO
 

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Max said:
Gary if you live in an area like I do that supports IM240 there really is no fooling the system unless someone cheats for you. With IM 240 the state plugs into the aldl data link and anything the ecm has in it is transfered to the state as far as codes and other data. Now some people think they can power down and power up the ecm to correct codes that take a while to set. Ecms use what is called a flag system for IM240. THat means that you must drive so far and test all the systems before enough flags are checked for the system to pass IM240. Trust me there is no way to remove a cat and have it pass since all cars use aft and post O2 sensors. If the second sensor reads the same as the first the system knows the cat is either failed or removed. Now many areas still don't run IM240 and without it the system can be fooled but in time I think either IM240 or some other standard will be in place nation wide. IMHO
It's been so long since we in Michigan have been under that umbrella Max that it didn't even cross my mind. I forgot about that inspection stuff. With the tree hugging being the flavor of the day, I must agree that it is a matter of time before we all have it too. Sounds like the testing has seriously advanced since the 1980's. :surrender
 
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