Harley Davidson V-Rod Forum banner

41 - 49 of 49 Posts

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,332 Posts
I have posted this,and a few other copys like it all over this forum.
This is why I say WOW when I see a new thread posted about loud engagement,when all one has to do is search around a little.

Most everyone I've ever talked with about gear boxes,including most every so called mechanic,does not have a clue as to how manual shift transmissions work.Like with synchronized transmissions,most think the blocking rings,or brake rings,are the syncronizer,when in reality,a synchronizer is a system of a few parts.
I still deal with people that call manual transmissions Standard,when the truth is,automatic transmissions are standard and sticks are optional,have been for over 30 years!
With motorcycles,manual gear boxes are standard,because there is little,or no option.
I was 12yo when I dug into my first 3 speed manual transmission.I didn't have a clue,but I took 3 and made one that worked in my own 63 Chevy.
Stick shift tools are very expensive and become obsolete in a couple of years,so I've shied away from them in the past few years because I don't have a lot of the tools to do manual transmissions efficiently.
I dunno. The current crop of slushboxes all cost $2500 or more, frequently much more, to overhaul while a good quality manual gearbox costs around a grand. If you know how to shift, the manual will greatly outlast the slushbox. Other than oil changes, there is little you can do to preserve a slushbox, you have no real control over them. With a manual, if you are gentle with the clutch, know how to double clutch downshifts and always use neutral at traffic lights to spare the clutch release bearing, a manual can be made to last well into six digit mileages with no repairs.
Additionally, there will always be a demand for a good manual gearbox on performance cars. No DSG or slushbox will ever be as satisfying as shifting your own gears and blipping the throttle the old fashioned way. Get it right and it is almost erotic.
 

·
durata membro
Joined
·
17,603 Posts
I dunno. The current crop of slushboxes all cost $2500 or more, frequently much more, to overhaul while a good quality manual gearbox costs around a grand. If you know how to shift, the manual will greatly outlast the slushbox. Other than oil changes, there is little you can do to preserve a slushbox, you have no real control over them. With a manual, if you are gentle with the clutch, know how to double clutch downshifts and always use neutral at traffic lights to spare the clutch release bearing, a manual can be made to last well into six digit mileages with no repairs.
Additionally, there will always be a demand for a good manual gearbox on performance cars. No DSG or slushbox will ever be as satisfying as shifting your own gears and blipping the throttle the old fashioned way. Get it right and it is almost erotic.

You say cost,well if you actually knew what it costs me,and transmission shops,to rebuild most automatic transmissions,you would shit! The trick is,finding someone that can make that box of parts work right.:)

The 2 most popular stick shift transmissions to fail in the field right now are the 6 speed ZF's in the Fords and the New-Venture 6 speeds in the Dodge.
As a reference,a good used Ford,or Dodge 6 speed goes for around 2 grand.Then there is a clutch,flywheel and labor.
Stick shifts are much more complicated,and expensive than an automatic transmission.The tools cost 5 times as much.Another example,the ZF requires 70 tons of pressure to install the bearing sleeves onto the shafts.My press is only 22 tons and cost $600.
I do not have the 3 grand it will cost just for a 75 ton press,nor the other small essential tools required for most sticks.

The %'s show that more stick shift transmissions fail than automatics.The reason they fail doesn't matter.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,332 Posts
You say cost,well if you actually knew what it costs me,and transmission shops,to rebuild most automatic transmissions,you would shit! The trick is,finding someone that can make that box of parts work right.:)

The 2 most popular stick shift transmissions to fail in the field right now are the 6 speed ZF's in the Fords and the New-Venture 6 speeds in the Dodge.
As a reference,a good used Ford,or Dodge 6 speed goes for around 2 grand.Then there is a clutch,flywheel and labor.
Stick shifts are much more complicated,and expensive than an automatic transmission.The tools cost 5 times as much.Another example,the ZF requires 70 tons of pressure to install the bearing sleeves onto the shafts.My press is only 22 tons and cost $600.
I do not have the 3 grand it will cost just for a 75 ton press,nor the other small essential tools required for most sticks.

The %'s show that more stick shift transmissions fail than automatics.The reason they fail doesn't matter.
I have a ZF five speed in an Audi that needed new bearings and synchros. Eleven bearings total by the way. Parts and labor were one grand even, and a local shop charged me $400 to R&R, plus changing two CV joint boots and $350 for a Sachs Sport clutch. The original clutch wasn't worn out, I just wanted that clutch. Shopping around that seemed to be the going rate for my car. This was around 2005 or 2006 with 135,000-140,000 miles, not that long ago. I will say that cars with transverse engines were more expensive to R&R the gearbox from, maybe $700 vs $400 for mine.
My other Audi has a later model ZF five speed with 160,000 miles on the original clutch. It has never been apart and doesn't need anything.
Old American three speed autoboxes are cheap to rebuild. What grinds my gears so to speak is the ridiculous cost to rebuild something like a modern Japanese five or six speed autobox, or the ZF autoboxes in "premium" German cars. Audi autoboxes fail if the oil is not changed every 30K miles, and simply dumping the oil in the pan is insufficient, you must also drain the torque converter. Then there are all the electronics talking to the engine managment on a complex data bus.
Maybe a lot of people do not know how to treat a manual gearbox and tear them up, but for me I can make them last for ages and at least the one's I have are cheap enough to rebuild when they do fail, certainly less costly than the same manufacturers autoboxes. I don't even want to think about the cost to replace the clutches or rebuiled a DSG gearbox.

Btw, in the rest of the world, the relative proportions of autoboxes and manual gearboxes are opposite that of the US. The rest of the world still shifts their own gears and does so competently. One of the slickest double clutch downshifts I have ever witnesses was a Hong Kong cabbie in a Mazda 323 sedan trying to beat some traffic through an intersection. Really put a smile on my face. Even saw another Hong Kong cab, a Nissan Cedric (big sedan like the Toyota Crown) with three on the tree. This was 1988! We are very unaware of the world around us here in the US.
 

·
durata membro
Joined
·
17,603 Posts
I've got right at 300k on my original 5 spd stick and clutch in my little S-10.I know how to drive.:D

I have an 06 Chrysler 300 in possession waiting for Gieco's extended warranty to give me the OK to rebuild the 5 spd automatic trans and reflash the controller.It's a ZF 5 spd.The estimate is just over $3700.I did the same trans in an 03 320 sedan last week for a couple hundred less.It had water contamination,and the tcm was fine.I always run the VIN's to check if they have the latest software installed.
I've been doing quit a few of the ZF 722.6 trannys lately in a variety of vehicles because a lot of people are keeping their cars longer and the factory warrantys are over with.
I had been resealing a lot of the big HP24 6 speed ZF's in the Beamers.They all leak at the case pass through connector,similar to the V-Rods alternator wire leaking.I won't see many more of these because there has been a recall issued.:banghead:

I don't keep up w what the rest of the world drives and likes.It takes a lot to keep up w what I do,and I just don't have the need to know what other countrys vehicles use for their drive trains,unless there is money for me to make from them.Then I become very interested.:deal:

Even in this poor economy,I don't do to awful bad for a one man show.Here lately,I've had some people in the biz call and ask me how I do it.I tell them,all I do is fix the customers complaints.This makes them happy,and keeps my electric meter spinning.

This one doesn't use planetary gears for the ratios.This is a constant mesh automatic.It's a Saturn TAAT.Same theory of operation as most Honda automatics.These are very critical for setting the end play and tolerance in the clutch packs.Sometimes .001 can cause bumps and bangs from one ratio to the next.

I've been working with automotive transmissions since 1977.They still intrigue me,and I hope they keep intriguing me for many years to come.
 

Attachments

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,421 Posts
my 1993 wrx suburu 5speed manual had over 300,ooo miles on it with the same clutch. never even changed the diff. oil on that little beast. only draw back was an under powered 1.8 ltr engine. i donated it...when the flatbed came to pick it up & did a series of donutz in the snow on my front lawn...the driver was like WTF. i should have kept it.
 

·
durata membro
Joined
·
17,603 Posts
I know people love Subarooooos,but I've seen them from the inside looking out.
I worked in a Chrysler dealer that handled them.They are not very good vehicles.When the service dept would get slow and a Subarooooo was dispatched to a Chrysler tech,he would take a sick day.Some would call 911 and have an ambulance bring them down the road just to get away from having anything to do with them.The worst ones for failures were the postal delivery cars.
I forget which car model it was,the Legacy maybe,but it had an automatic up drivers window without sensitivity.People would have to be rescued,mostly at banks,when the automatic up window would go up trapping them in the door.That was funny as hell to see.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
9,332 Posts
I've got right at 300k on my original 5 spd stick and clutch in my little S-10.I know how to drive.:D

I have an 06 Chrysler 300 in possession waiting for Gieco's extended warranty to give me the OK to rebuild the 5 spd automatic trans and reflash the controller.It's a ZF 5 spd.The estimate is just over $3700.I did the same trans in an 03 320 sedan last week for a couple hundred less.It had water contamination,and the tcm was fine.I always run the VIN's to check if they have the latest software installed.
I've been doing quit a few of the ZF 722.6 trannys lately in a variety of vehicles because a lot of people are keeping their cars longer and the factory warrantys are over with.
I had been resealing a lot of the big HP24 6 speed ZF's in the Beamers.They all leak at the case pass through connector,similar to the V-Rods alternator wire leaking.I won't see many more of these because there has been a recall issued.:banghead:

I don't keep up w what the rest of the world drives and likes.It takes a lot to keep up w what I do,and I just don't have the need to know what other countrys vehicles use for their drive trains,unless there is money for me to make from them.Then I become very interested.:deal:

Even in this poor economy,I don't do to awful bad for a one man show.Here lately,I've had some people in the biz call and ask me how I do it.I tell them,all I do is fix the customers complaints.This makes them happy,and keeps my electric meter spinning.

This one doesn't use planetary gears for the ratios.This is a constant mesh automatic.It's a Saturn TAAT.Same theory of operation as most Honda automatics.These are very critical for setting the end play and tolerance in the clutch packs.Sometimes .001 can cause bumps and bangs from one ratio to the next.

I've been working with automotive transmissions since 1977.They still intrigue me,and I hope they keep intriguing me for many years to come.
You know your gearboxes! But, that $3700 bill for that Chrysler slushbox is exactly what I'm talking about. Tell me if I'm wrong but you could be in and out of an old three speed Torqueflite for under a grand. Is that ZF box really that much better? Just for grins, what would you charge to rebuild an early 1990's Audi 5 speed manual, front drive only, no Quattro?
All this new technology looks nice on the brochure, drives nice when new and is comfortable to own when the car is still within the warranty period, but ten years and six digits on the odometer down the road, I'm not so sure I want one. How much specialized and expensive diagnostic equipment did you have to buy to reflash the ECM's that operate these new slushboxes? How much volume of business do you need to amortize the cost? I imagine that is driving a nice chunk of that $3700 bill.
Does any car really need a seven speed transmission to perform well, or is it more a case of spec sheet warfare? I have similar reservations about the increasingly complex electronic systems and servo actuated BS on many high end motorcycles. Computers and software get out of date pretty quickly, and our vehicles are filled with computers and are run by software.
 

·
durata membro
Joined
·
17,603 Posts
It's all a sales gimmick.The final ratio on all overdriven transmissions is right at 1 to .7.

A person owning a late model car without purchasing an extended powertrain,electrical and A/C warranty is a foolish person,or they trade every 3 years.

I wouldn't touch a 1990 Audi transmission for double the pay.VW's are not very friendly to work on either,but now that they use Mazda ,(JATCO), transmissions.expensive as hell,but they can be fixed.

The aluminum RWD TF started in 1963 and was never a very dependable transmission in stock factory form.It costs a fortune to build one that will last behind a high torque engine that has light weight reciprocating parts.
I am amazed at how long the Mopar TF transmission lasted from all the durability problems they had.Late 07 was the last year for it in production vehicles.
 
41 - 49 of 49 Posts
Top