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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
hi all,

had the 07DX dyno'd today but i'm having some mixed feelings about the results... so i'm hoping to get some opinions/advice/feedback from fellow forummembers

i'm basically very happy with the results - even better than i expected - especially since i run a 280 at the rear which, as i already could read here, should chew away some ponies plus given the fact that it's an international model hence catalyst on board, again that should absorb some ponies in theory ?

dyno's made at a certified DJ/PC center with DJ/PC certified software plus the tech specifically told me that corrections have been applied AND that he does not manipulate any figures ... what you get is what you see on the chart and vice versa

first off, i find the AF-ratio a bit high but he explained to me that the end result was the lowest he could offer 'cause all attempts to lower it resulted in 'near-choked' behaviour meaning no smoothness whatsoever (catalyst ?)

i must admit that the bike now has a definite much sharper response, does accelerate faster and rides much smoother than before, it's not just an impression, it's a reality

- first dyno = bone stock but with my home cooked slip-ons (comparable to V&H Pro Pipe internal setup) : 113.01 HP / 103.06 Nm (83.35 ft lbs)
- second run = w/ K&N + PCIIIUSB and same slip-ons : 116.55 HP / 106.42 Nm (85.96 ft lbs) note : non-topless thus with the lid on

even if these HP's were to be metric HP's (am not sure but don't think so) then they read 111.5 HP US (before) and 115 HP US (after)

could you please give your comments/give advice on :

- the A/F-ratio (I've read Elgavilan's post about the engine getting too hot)
- the resulting HP/torque numbers

am i on the right track with these results ? leave it like that ?

chart : http://www.1130cc.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=85745&d=1184704561

thx for feedback & grtz
 

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WHATEVER
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The AFR is on the lean side and I am not sure what influence the CAT has on this however the numbers are good and you are happy with it.

Can you explain the pipe MOD, specifically V&H pro-pipe like?
 

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1130cc Ninja
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i typically try not to run afr's in the 14's like that
 

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fire up !
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
DTHDOC said:
however the numbers are good and you are happy with it.
yes i am but when i read the posts about A/F higher than 14 that could harm the engine i'd rather have lower numbers and a healthy engine
the tech daily does runs on mostly semi-race rice rockets, my DX was the first Rod he ever did so if the general advice of people here would be to not run that high A/F then i'd rather go that way, even when the present A/F curve is a fairly horizontal line
DTHDOC said:
Can you explain the pipe MOD, specifically V&H pro-pipe like?
these slip-ons were hand made, outer ss cans with removable baffles and fiber packing
i used to have a V&H Pro Pipe on my softail (2-1) that performed very good, with identical inner design (except the Pro Pipe has a coned shape) and we took that inner design as a starting point, if the numbers are what they are than i'd say these slip-ons perform very well ?
thanks for any comments, do appreciate it !
grtz
 

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I would shoot for an AFR between 13.0 and 13.5. I have run in the low 14's at cruise speeds but find much beter performance with higher AFR. I have heard that a little leaner could make a dyno happy but don't quote me on this. I would have a nother tuner try to streighten it out for you as this guy might have sold you High HP at the expense of longevity and safe operating temps.
 

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1130cc Ninja
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DTHDOC said:
I would shoot for an AFR between 13.0 and 13.5. I have run in the low 14's at cruise speeds but find much beter performance with higher AFR. I have heard that a little leaner could make a dyno happy but don't quote me on this. I would have a nother tuner try to streighten it out for you as this guy might have sold you High HP at the expense of longevity and safe operating temps.
agreed... I wouldnt consider the bike running a little rich until it is lower than the mid 12s.
 

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i'm basically very happy with the results - even better than i expected - especially since i run a 280 at the rear which, as i already could read here, should chew away some ponies plus given the fact that it's an international model hence catalyst on board, again that should absorb some ponies in theory ?
You can't read AFR with any accuracy behind the catalyst. You will be between .5 and 1 AFR richer than what you are reading.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Dale "R" said:
You can't read AFR with any accuracy behind the catalyst. You will be between .5 and 1 AFR richer than what you are reading.
this is excellent news !!!:D i managed to talk to the tech an hour ago and he said exactly the same, he said that the actual average lies around 13.3 and that there is no need to worry about running too lean
he also asked if i could just remove the catalyst ... for the same reason, better readings hence maybe better performance
i'm going to check that and see if i can remove the catalyst, since there are no sensors attached i must presume the ECM won't be troubled ?
this is really good news, big thx for your expertise guys !!
grtz
Dirk
 

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this is excellent news !!! i managed to talk to the tech an hour ago and he said exactly the same, he said that the actual average lies around 13.3 and that there is no need to worry about running too lean
he also asked if i could just remove the catalyst ... for the same reason, better readings hence maybe better performance
i'm going to check that and see if i can remove the catalyst, since there are no sensors attached i must presume the ECM won't be troubled ?
this is really good news, big thx for your expertise guys !!
grtz
Dirk
You can leave the cat in and install bungs for your readings in front of it.
 

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1130cc Ninja
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Dale "R" said:
You can't read AFR with any accuracy behind the catalyst. You will be between .5 and 1 AFR richer than what you are reading.
great point!!! I didnt even think about that when talking about it being lean... I am so used to not reading with the cat in place.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Dale "R" said:
You can leave the cat in and install bungs for your readings in front of it.
Dale, 1 bung on each header pipe or only 1 just before the cat ? any advice on diameter ? but when i would take the cat out, could this screw up anything and would the removal result in increased power ?
last question : what do you think personally of the hp/torque figures ? even without the pcIII/K&N they already looked pretty good to me so i must assume those slip-ons must have something to do with it
thx & grtz
 

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1130cc Ninja
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Roadhog said:
Dale, 1 bung on each header pipe or only 1 just before the cat ? any advice on diameter ? but when i would take the cat out, could this screw up anything and would the removal result in increased power ?
last question : what do you think personally of the hp/torque figures ? even without the pcIII/K&N they already looked pretty good to me so i must assume those slip-ons must have something to do with it
thx & grtz
the purpose of the bung is to be able to screw the wideband o2 into the exhaust. If you did one in each header you would have to use 2 widebands, and watch both at the same time because it would read the afr for each cylinder. I think this would be a little overkill.

One at the collector in front of the cat would be sufficient.
 

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Dale, 1 bung on each header pipe or only 1 just before the cat ? any advice on diameter ? but when i would take the cat out, could this screw up anything and would the removal result in increased power ?
last question : what do you think personally of the hp/torque figures ? even without the pcIII/K&N they already looked pretty good to me so i must assume those slip-ons must have something to do with it
thx & grtz
I would install a bung in each headpipe and adapt the sample probe line to it so you can check each cylinder's A/FR . It will tell you more than just one sample at the collector. The fuel requirements of the front and rear cylinder are quite a bit different through out the operating range. One fitting in the collector will work but you will get a mixed average of both cylinders. The dyno numbers look good to me but you might be able to bring the torque up from 4-6k rpm's with more tuning.
 

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1130cc Ninja
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Dale "R" said:
I would install a bung in each headpipe and adapt the sample probe line to it so you can check each cylinder's A/FR . It will tell you more than just one sample at the collector. The fuel requirements of the front and rear cylinder are quite a bit different through out the operating range. One fitting in the collector will work but you will get a mixed average of both cylinders. The dyno numbers look good to me but you might be able to bring the torque up from 4-6k rpm's with more tuning.
dale, as I posted do you not feel that having to monitor each cylinder is a little over kill.

I do agree it is a better reading, and it will tell you 100% how your machine is running. But in all actuality, how many vehicles have you dynoed that have had one cylinder way out of whack?? I know its possible but I personally have never seen it. And if one is out that much there is a serious problem and basic tuning wouldn't be able to "correct" the problem.
 

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VenomousSVT said:
dale, as I posted do you not feel that having to monitor each cylinder is a little over kill.

I do agree it is a better reading, and it will tell you 100% how your machine is running. But in all actuality, how many vehicles have you dynoed that have had one cylinder way out of whack?? I know its possible but I personally have never seen it. And if one is out that much there is a serious problem and basic tuning wouldn't be able to "correct" the problem.
Having come from a Hot Rod Mustang background, I was working under the same impressions. This is a totally different beast. I am running a VRFID and it has one Wideband O2 sensor in each head pipe near the port. The computer tunes each cylinder as an individual map. It is amasing to watch the realtime display and see the differences in the inputs and outputs of each cylinder.
In this case, without a computer that is able to manage each injector based on the output of the cylinder, one O2 sensor would work but I would say do one cylinder then move to the other cylinder and check it to make sure it is within spec.
 

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HawkStang said:
Having come from a Hot Rod Mustang background, I was working under the same impressions. This is a totally different beast. I am running a VRFID and it has one Wideband O2 sensor in each head pipe near the port. The computer tunes each cylinder as an individual map. It is amasing to watch the realtime display and see the differences in the inputs and outputs of each cylinder.
In this case, without a computer that is able to manage each injector based on the output of the cylinder, one O2 sensor would work but I would say do one cylinder then move to the other cylinder and check it to make sure it is within spec.
thanks for the heads up! From the same background as you it is obvious why i had the same ideas behind it.
 

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It is a different beast as far as tuning. I think you can get by and probably be o.k. with the PC-3 with minimum mods because you are adding fuel in most cases to the stock calibration. The software in the E.C.M. has independent V.E. table's for fueling for each cylinder as well as spark advance tables. When you change exhaust, take the top off and go to a low restriction air filter it changes the V.E., but both tables will not need the same changes and sometimes what used to be rich on one table has to be leaned out and the same spot on the other table richened up. Anyhow, I really don't know how most of the shops are getting a good tune-up using one probe up the pipe, maybe one of the guy's that uses a Dyno-jet can tell us. I thought if Roadhog was going to have to weld in a bung then why not weld in 2 and at least check the A-F/R on both cylinders. It could be over-kill but he will never know if he doesn't check it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Dale "R" said:
why not weld in 2 and at least check the A-F/R on both cylinders. It could be over-kill but he will never know if he doesn't check it.
Dale, sorry if this sounds stupid but how is it done 'check A-F/R on both' ?? a run with the probe in front header pipe and then a second run with probe in rear header pipe ? suppose this gives two AFR's that are significantly apart, then what ?
thx & grtz
 

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Roadhog said:
Dale, sorry if this sounds stupid but how is it done 'check A-F/R on both' ?? a run with the probe in front header pipe and then a second run with probe in rear header pipe ? suppose this gives two AFR's that are significantly apart, then what ?
thx & grtz

The goal is to run both cylinders at the same AFR however the air and fuel requirements to achieve this varies between the two based on the volumetric efficiency of the cylinders. If your actual AFR is significantly different from the commanded AFR, your tune is poor and needs work (the VE tables have to be adjusted)
 
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