on the VROD, but on the rest of the Harleys, and most bikes, there is no need for one? Couldn't they have designed an engine that would have the HP but not need the cooling, such as an S&S engine or other aftermarket engines? Excuse my ignorance on this. But hopefully others here would like to know....
Can someone tell me why there is a radiator...
millenniumdawg
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on the VROD, but on the rest of the Harleys, and most bikes, there is no need for one? Couldn't they have designed an engine that would have the HP but not need the cooling, such as an S&S engine or other aftermarket engines? Excuse my ignorance on this. But hopefully others here would like to know....
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The engine would overheat without it due to its design.
Also the new EPA Laws in 2006, Harley is going to have a hard time meeting the EPA requirements with the AIR Cooled engines, Maybe this is the Engine that will replace thier Air Cooled ones??
Also the new EPA Laws in 2006, Harley is going to have a hard time meeting the EPA requirements with the AIR Cooled engines, Maybe this is the Engine that will replace thier Air Cooled ones??
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The simple answer is "tighter control of tolerances," the mechanical space left between mating parts. I'll let others chime in with the details, but with water coolings enormous heat sinking capacity, engine designers have much more control over how much the engine components will expand and contract. Dimensionally that range can be tightly controlled when the temps are tightly controlled.millenniumdawg said:
The air cooled engine does not have the luxury of operating within the same narrow heat range, so much more design effort has to be spent compromising component's fits and tolerances to be able to deliver adequate performance over that larger temperature range. Not easy when one of your goals is 6 Sigma quality in a high volume manufacturing environment. If you can control things more tightly, then you can more easily design performance into the process.
It would be great to hear from the "Porsche" enthusiasts for a brief case study of what that car maker went through as it struggled to get their designers and customers to shift in the direction or water cooled performance.... I'm sure that there are many valuable parallels that Harley will experience with Porsche as the big squeeze on motorcycle engine pollution regulations continues to progress.
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Water cooling an engine versus air cooling allows much more precise control of the engine's operating temperature when in operation, which results in better air/fuel mixture control, performance and economy, and the biggie better control over exhaust emissions. An air cooled engine's operating temp is subject to many variables, atmospheric ambient temps which could be 30 or 100 degrees F, amount of airflow/vehicle speed. Really an efficient engine is a powerfull engine, and less pollutants to our atmosphere, less tailpipe NOX and HC vapors. Todays 4 cycle water cooled engines are way more efficient and make more power per liter displacement than 10-20 years ago. Vastly better air/fuel mixture, combustion management today.
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And notice the demise of Porsche's air cooled engines in their current product many years ago. Water cooled is where its at if you wish precise control/efficiency. Not to mention HD's evos and Twin Cams basic engine design dates back 100 years, 45 degree air cooled twin cyclinder. That is a big part of the heritage, it sure isn't customer service generally today.....
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I think anyone who has an interest in this bike and how much went into its design and enginering needs to see the Discovery Channal documentary on it. Its one of the main contributors to why there is one in my garage now. Luckily I TIVO'ed it months back and still find my self watching it several times a month.
Everytime I watch it it makes me wonder why they have changed its design so much in the short time it has been out. I love the first 2 years and am happy I found one.
Everytime I watch it it makes me wonder why they have changed its design so much in the short time it has been out. I love the first 2 years and am happy I found one.
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And let's not forget overheating. S&S and all the other air-cooled motors are prone to overheating when ideling.
Overheating is not good for you and definitely not good for the engine and the oil.
This was not laziness, this was the improved generation of design. There will be times when you appreciate this design when you see your air-cooled brothers off to the side of the road on hot days or sluggish traffic or when you consider how well your engine has worn at 20K.
Overheating is not good for you and definitely not good for the engine and the oil.
This was not laziness, this was the improved generation of design. There will be times when you appreciate this design when you see your air-cooled brothers off to the side of the road on hot days or sluggish traffic or when you consider how well your engine has worn at 20K.
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millenniumdawg said:
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I was stuck in a traffic jam yesterday on my V Rod and was very happy that it was water cooled. Someone mentioned the Porsche air cooled cars. You could almost say they were "oil cooled". My 2.7 ltr 911 holds almost 12 quarts of oil, has a oil thermostat and a large oil cooler. However the cylinders are completely air cooled. In the mid 90's Porsche went to a water cooled engine for increased performance and reliability. Keeping the heads/valves cool was becoming an issue. I was very much into my 911 at the time. Their transition to water was met with as much enthusiasim from the old Porsche heads as the Revolution is with the old Harley guys. But I dont think anyone bats an eye at the water cooled Porsches now. They rock. Adapt and overcome!
All the true Hi-Performance motors are watercooled. I haven't seen any S&S motors winning formula extreme races even though they are allowed 1300 ccs to the Japaneese bikes that are limited to 600cc. At Daytona Buell (sad) didn't even have a bike in the formula extreme field. BTW, on the tighter tolerances issue, the 600cc Honda CBR has a 15K redline stock! There was an excellent segment on one of the Corbin Ride-on shows regarding the benefits of watercooling and how it benefited reliability and HP. Anecdotaly, the SE 103 puts out 84.9 RWHP in EPA trim. That's a 1670 cc motor putting out about 20 HP less than a 1130 cc watercooled one. Not to mention the MoCo wants 30K for the bikes equipped with that motor.
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All excellent answers...It turns out that this bike is indeed a bike for the future....I have a friend that just bought a 1200cc Buell Firebolt. I was wondering what my answers could be to his questions....This forum is great. I wish I could see the Discovery specilal on the bike.....
I wish I could see the Discovery specilal on the bike.....[/QUOTE]
Sound like a prime prospect for Tivo. You can get one for free with a Directv satellite subscription. I have 4 of them including one HD(no not Harley Davidson silly, but High Definition).
Sound like a prime prospect for Tivo. You can get one for free with a Directv satellite subscription. I have 4 of them including one HD(no not Harley Davidson silly, but High Definition).
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I find it strange when people do not embrace technology when it benefits them. I have come across people talking about "How Its not a Harley because of the water cooled engine" etc. Now if I have a 1958 Cadillac and I want it to remain stock and only drive it to the local diner so people can stare, than fine I imagine the Generator will do just fine charging your parts, the window lifts will be slow but fruitful and all the children can have Asthma from the pure exhaust bellowing out its back end (anyone seen pictures of Mexico City lately?), but I want an altenator in the car I depend on and electric windows that go up with the slightest touch, I want to breath better and if theres an accident I don't want a steel dashboard and steering column there to protect me, I want my car to turn into A giant pillow on the inside and crumple zones surrounding my cage. I applaud Harley for this bike, and I think one of the reasons they did do it thats not mentioned in the Discovery show is the fact that Government standards are getting stiffer and its either go down with the ship or else move into the future. I also think it will bring in new custumers that would not have even considered a Harley before.
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I was just thinking about the terminology we use , and the 'Radiator' should really be called a ''Cooler', in fact a 'Water Cooler'.
Otherwise should we call 'Oil Coolers'........'Oil Radiators'.........??
And don't high performance cars have 'Intercoolers' to cool the intake air, not 'InterRadiators'?
Just a thought.........
Otherwise should we call 'Oil Coolers'........'Oil Radiators'.........??
And don't high performance cars have 'Intercoolers' to cool the intake air, not 'InterRadiators'?
Just a thought.........
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I bought the video form Discovery.com. Its only $4 on VHS http://shopping.discovery.com/store.../servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10000&storeId=10000&langId=-1&productId=13422 :thumb:millenniumdawg said:
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