Fuel table Conversion into AFR Table

mlopez · Jun 10, 2010

Hi There

I don’t know if this is possible or stupid. But I have a fuel table that makes my bike go like a rocked and honestly Since I have the autotune that I’m not able to run properly my bike runs very bad and I'm trying hard to make that moeny worth it.
I was wondering if it’s possible to convert my fuel table to an AFR table.

Many thanks in advance and forge my lack of knowledge
Manuel

stever975 · Jun 10, 2010

mlopez said:
...I don’t know if this is possible or stupid. But I have a fuel table that makes my bike go like a rocked and honestly Since I have the autotune that I’m not able to run properly my bike runs very bad and I'm trying hard to make that moeny worth it.
I was wondering if it’s possible to convert my fuel table to an AFR table. ...

The AFR table is not the table that’s changed when “tuning” an engine. This is table that contains target values that the engine should run at to provide optimum power, fuel economy and stable idle.

The tables that are manipulated when changing cams, displacement, exhaust, velocity stacks, etc. are the volumetric efficiency (VE) tables. The VE tables store numbers that the system uses to calculate how much air is being consumed at a given RPM and throttle position.

When running at a particular RPM and throttle position, the system looks up the target AFR value and then calculates the appropriate fuel injector pulse. The VRSC Delphi system uses the same AFR table for the front and rear cylinder but has two separate VE tables.

Closed loop auto-tuning systems use the oxygen sensor signal to modify the VE values in an attempt to correct for measured AFR values that don’t match the target AFR values.

I’m not sure what you mean by a “fuel table” but if this a list of injector pulse durations for a given RPM and throttle position then this could be used to determine the VE tables if the target AFR values are known.

The AFR tables used for various VRSC engines aren’t that different. Under low load mid RPM conditions it’s usually set at 14.3 to 14.5. At idle the AFR is set a little lower (13.5 to 13.8) to keep the engine running without overheating. Lower values are also used for high load and/or high RPM, dropping to 13 for wide open throttle and intermediate RPMs and as low as 11.3 for the highest RPMs. The lower AFR values provide the best horsepower and cooler temperatures at the expense of fuel efficiency.

I'm guessing you have Dynojet PC fuel management device and I don't know a lot about the tables in these things so maybe someone that uses one will respond with more info.

mlopez · Jun 10, 2010

Many thanks for your explanation ...
I’m not sure that the table that I call "Fuel table" is the (VE) table .... I've attached a photo so there is no way to get confused.
My situation is that my autotune doesn't work properly, I get AFR reading since first day but I haven't got any value in the TRIM table from the autotune.
The situation is that Support from PCV was not able to resolve my problem and I managed to get a MAP that makes my bike run crazy.... So now that I really enjoy ridding the bike I want to try to fix the auto tune again, but I'd like the AFR table to behave as closer as my actual MAP.
So I have measures in a different % throttle and RPM in my MAP that I ‘d like to adapt in my AFR map.
Many thanks in advance I don’t know if I was able to explain myself properly but in a few words, imagine that you have PCV with a great map and you want to use it with the auto tune

dun4791 · Jun 10, 2010

Threads like this are the reason I have not had the courage to order an autotune for my PCV.

Have you seen this thread? Maybe you have a software problem.

http://www.1130cc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136841&highlight=autotune

stever975 · Jun 10, 2010

mlopez said:
... I’m not sure that the table that I call "Fuel table" is the (VE) table .... I've attached a photo so there is no way to get confused.
My situation is that my autotune doesn't work properly, I get AFR reading since first day but I haven't got any value in the TRIM table from the autotune. ...

I can see you have a Dynojet product and the table you posted is for cylinder 2 (probably the rear cylinder).

The numbers in the table indicate how the fuel injector pulses are being modified from the pulse durations calculated by the HD Delphi system. I don’t use the Dynojet stuff so I’m not sure but I would imagine it is a percentage change of the injector “on-time” pulse width.

As to getting your Dynojet stuff working: someone with Dynojet hardware and software experience will have to respond.

EOD J ROD · Jun 11, 2010

mlopez said:
Many thanks for your explanation ...
I’m not sure that the table that I call "Fuel table" is the (VE) table .... I've attached a photo so there is no way to get confused.
My situation is that my autotune doesn't work properly, I get AFR reading since first day but I haven't got any value in the TRIM table from the autotune.
The situation is that Support from PCV was not able to resolve my problem and I managed to get a MAP that makes my bike run crazy.... So now that I really enjoy ridding the bike I want to try to fix the auto tune again, but I'd like the AFR table to behave as closer as my actual MAP.
So I have measures in a different % throttle and RPM in my MAP that I ‘d like to adapt in my AFR map.
Many thanks in advance I don’t know if I was able to explain myself properly but in a few words, imagine that you have PCV with a great map and you want to use it with the auto tune

Ok I have done this once already(with help, lots of help from this forum) and it's a PIA!!!! You have to manually develop your AFR table and then run the bike, if you have a large adjustment (trim change) then you need to go back and manually adjust the AFR table. Now the good news.....with the new LCD screen you can data log a run and see where your AFR's are running to develop an AFR table that way. Then run it and it should be pretty close and only need to make minor adjustments to the AFR table. Post your map with bike, exhaust/intake configuration, also the fuel you run and average altitude and I will give it a shot at developing your AFR table to compliment your map.

Also on your no trim changes from your AT, I also had the same issue and with a reload of the software again and again, working with DJ over the phone and hooked to the bike we were finally able to resolve the problem. Some thing was wrong with the software.....it's not an PC V issue.

If you can't get the post the Map then I let me know and I will get you my email. If that does not work then I can do it from screen shots as a last resort. That is a newer developed map from just looking at the screen shot you posted.

rdscustoms · Jun 11, 2010

If you notice on the screen shot, it confirms something I was questioning in another thread.... The latest software version doesn't show the AFR tables when reading the map, UNLESS it's plugged into the bike.

To make any adjustments to the AFR tables, the bike needs to be plugged in. Doesn't have to be running or turned on, but the PCV has to be in the loop.

Just reading the map on the computer doesn't cut it anymore.

lbrown · Jun 11, 2010

those numbers are percentage changes to the underlying map in the delphi ecm.. it would be impossible to figure what the a/f was from those numbers.. unless you put on the dyno and checked it...closed loop system can work beautifully but that isn`t always true because lots of conditions can affect the o2 sensor readings and from that cause an improper tune.. i am biased because i have acess to a dyno with a/f instrumentation but i prefer open loop systems.. when i get the bike running properly at the correct a/f`s i don`t want feedback from the o2 sensors affecting it.. in a perfect world closed loop is the tits but sometimes the world isn`t perfect...

EOD J ROD · Jun 11, 2010

rdscustoms said:
If you notice on the screen shot, it confirms something I was questioning in another thread.... The latest software version doesn't show the AFR tables when reading the map, UNLESS it's plugged into the bike.

To make any adjustments to the AFR tables, the bike needs to be plugged in. Doesn't have to be running or turned on, but the PCV has to be in the loop.

Just reading the map on the computer doesn't cut it anymore.

In Mlopez's screen shot he does not have the AT enabled so it will not show the AFR tables. So that is the 1st thing to check is to ensure the map you are looking at has AT enabled. When you connect to the bike make sure it is reading the map from the bike. Now check your PC tools tab to configure the AT to enable, once done, save the map file. Now check to see if it worked......disconnect the computer from the bike and open the file. You should now be able to see the AFR table/tables as set. Now once disconnected from the bike you will not be able to use the configuration tab until reconnected to the bike but you should be able to make all your adjustments to any and all your tables. Don't forget to save when done and don't forget to send after saving trims.

Brothawolf · Jun 12, 2010

You shouldnt even be messing with this. You have autotune. Thats what its for. Check and recheck all your wiring. You gotta really push those suckers into the autotunes and screw em down tight. Do you have the autotune enabled in the software? Have you contacted Dynojet? If so what have they had you try to do to correct this? If the unit is shot send it back and get a new one

EOD J ROD · Jun 12, 2010

Brothawolf said:
You shouldnt even be messing with this. You have autotune. Thats what its for. Check and recheck all your wiring. You gotta really push those suckers into the autotunes and screw em down tight. Do you have the autotune enabled in the software? Have you contacted Dynojet? If so what have they had you try to do to correct this? If the unit is shot send it back and get a new one

Let see he has a tune and is trying to get an AFR table to match. I had my bike dyno tuned but they did not take the time to build my AFR table.

Yes he has contacted Dynojet about his issue, without a current resolution. I had to work with DJ on 4 separate occasions to get mine fixed (problem was never resolved until the last contact) on a toll free number........last but not least he is in Spain, so it makes things a little more difficult then you may realize. If I remember right no warranty comes to mind for Overseas sales.

mlopez · Jun 12, 2010

Hi Guys,
Before anything many thank for your help. This kind of forum makes people like me to adventure and try to have fun with the bike trying to custom them.
I have attached a few photos where you can see the set up that I use with the auto-tune ON.
I believe that my installation is OK I’ve redone so many time trying to figure out what the problem was that It’s crazy … You can see in the photos
First photo the reading when the engine is running is not clear but the reading in the AFR is from 13.8 to 15
Second photo the reading when the engine is NOT running .
Third photo the configuration
Fourth photo the throttle position
That’s my set up when I use the map with auto-tune. I have also attached the map that
Brothawolf kindly send me to set up in my bike.

I have attached the map also that I use with auto- tune off that was created for guy in USA and so far is great. This map was create taking into account that my bike is:

Vrod night 2009
K&N filter
Toxic Big Ring pipes with baffles
Temperature in summer : 77 to 104
Altitude: 2132
Many thaks

EOD J ROD I’d be great if you think that you could convert the Fuel table into a AFR table.
it I’m also talking to PC but man the only thing the say install and install ……

Many thanks to everyone I really appreciate

EOD J ROD · Jun 12, 2010

mlopez said:
Hi Guys,
Before anything many thank for your help. This kind of forum makes people like me to adventure and try to have fun with the bike trying to custom them.
I have attached a few photos where you can see the set up that I use with the auto-tune ON.
I believe that my installation is OK I’ve redone so many time trying to figure out what the problem was that It’s crazy … You can see in the photos
First photo the reading when the engine is running is not clear but the reading in the AFR is from 13.8 to 15
Second photo the reading when the engine is NOT running .
Third photo the configuration
Fourth photo the throttle position
That’s my set up when I use the map with auto-tune. I have also attached the map that
Brothawolf kindly send me to set up in my bike.

I have attached the map also that I use with auto- tune off that was created for guy in USA and so far is great. This map was create taking into account that my bike is:

Vrod night 2009
K&N filter
Toxic Big Ring pipes with baffles
Temperature in summer : 77 to 104
Altitude: 2132
Many thaks

EOD J ROD I’d be great if you think that you could convert the Fuel table into a AFR table.
it I’m also talking to PC but man the only thing the say install and install ……

Many thanks to everyone I really appreciate

Ok I have your maps...which one are you using? I hope not the second one as I believe with your pipes and intake you may run a little lean.

It will take me a couple of days to get your 1st prototype done and I will be traveling at the same time so be patient. I will work on the 1st map from FM.

Do you have popping on decel?

Any areas where you feel it may be an issue?

You already have a AFR table in the 1st map just not split between the cylinders. I am going to load it on my bike and see what's happening with the tune and make sure I get the Auto Tune to work.

I will be back shortly. I hope I can get it done for you to take a Sunday ride.

EOD J ROD · Jun 13, 2010

Here is the 1st Map

Ok lets make sure we have everything working before trying the install and test on the map. Uninstall all PC V software and reinstall from the DJ download site. Linked below

http://www.powercommander.com/powercommander/Downloads/powercommander_downloads.aspx?ProdType=PCV.

Then after the install do a download of the firmware from the same above link. Before making the update ensure all channels are off in the PC. Go to configure and uncheck all the blocks under Harley ECM, also check to ensure that anything else that may be checked is also disabled. Disconnect the bike and now make sure you have all unnecessary stuff on the computer shutdown as much as you can. Connect to the bike and update firmware. Give it about an extra minute after it says it's done loading. Close the PC program, take a deep breath, connect to the bike(if not already, open PC program, go to configure, check the Harley ECM Data channels, enable Auto Tune, check the parameters for AT function, I would check only time OR temp for the AT to kick in (I have mine on time) and install the map that I have posted for you.

Now if you want to see if it's working change the AFR at the 1250 rpm line 0% column to 12, once the time or temps have been reached (as checked) you should start seeing some changes. Give it a good 2-3 minutes. Hit get map and look at the trim for the cylinder that you had made the adjustment too. You should see a number in the 0% column. That should be an up and running AT. Don't forget to take the 12 out of the 0% column. OR just take it for a good ride.

Ok here is the map...way easy as most of the info was there and I just had to expand it. I put about a 45 minute ride on the map and my "F" was ok with it but I would need to make a few changes to be able to keep running it.

The second map I cannot do much with as it is not a proper table for your configuration IMO. I am not sure what they were trying to do there.

mlopez · Jun 13, 2010

I can't believe how quick you were able to set up everything for my configuration. I really appreciate it, honestly... It's raining here but I'll do everything that you said. With the map that you have changed the bike wasn't smooth at all and I was not able to get any boost riding over 5000 RPM as I used to get with the factory configuration. I really miss that sensation when the bike goes crazy over 5000 RPM ....
Let me try to install everything again and I'll let you know how the bikes go ... I'll do what you said to be sure the autotune works ... I'll uninstall everything and start from scratch .....
The 2th Map is the one that makes my bike run very good .... This guys was only concern about the altitude and temperature...I don't really understand the table but I was quite happy with my bike behaibour.
Do you know any link where I can learn more about how to really those table work..?
Any was It's been very kind from you to set up the map I really appreciate it and I'll keep you inform, as I said It'll take at least a week before I'll write back (I'm away) but I'll do it
Cheers

EOD J ROD · Jun 13, 2010

mlopez said:
I can't believe how quick you were able to set up everything for my configuration. I really appreciate it, honestly... It's raining here but I'll do everything that you said. With the map that you have changed the bike wasn't smooth at all and I was not able to get any boost riding over 5000 RPM as I used to get with the factory configuration. I really miss that sensation when the bike goes crazy over 5000 RPM ....
Let me try to install everything again and I'll let you know how the bikes go ... I'll do what you said to be sure the autotune works ... I'll uninstall everything and start from scratch .....
The 2th Map is the one that makes my bike run very good .... This guys was only concern about the altitude and temperature...I don't really understand the table but I was quite happy with my bike behavior.
Do you know any link where I can learn more about how to really those table work..?
Any was It's been very kind from you to set up the map I really appreciate it and I'll keep you inform, as I said It'll take at least a week before I'll write back (I'm away) but I'll do it
Cheers

The second map I believe would run very very lean. You are correct in saying that it runs like crazy but at the cost of the motor. The other thing is they started with numbers (25) in the 500 rpm line not sure why....then they all of sudden changed the numbers to 4's and 6's starting at 2000 r's with negative numbers starting at 3750 to 6500 r's.

I ran my bike around the block with the second map and was showing numbers in the 15 to 1 AFR range at the 4000 rpm range. I didn't take it out on the highway as after what I was seeing running thru the neighborhood I knew I wasn't going to be able to get it to work.

Just looking at it all I am going to say it looks to be a converted Airhead map. As they richen them up at idle to help keep them cool and they idle a lot slower the our V Rods do.

As for reading on how these things work, start with the owners manual, then use this site and the PC forum above. Also the DJ has a good manual to download about the adjusting the AFR table. There is alot of good reading. Basically the number in the table is the percentage of change the PC is telling the ECM to change over the factory setting. The AFR table is what the Auto Tune uses to make the changes. That is why you have to go back and accept trims. Also the higher the percentage of change the shorter it will take to adjust a new map.

mlopez · Jun 23, 2010

Hi J Rod,
I’ve done everything that you said and nothing !!!!! I get the AFR reading ,After 40 minutes ridding the bike and press the bottom “get table ” I get zeros in all my trim tables.
I’m quite tired and disappointed of this software……. We pay top money in Europe for HD and the last thing that you want is to damage the engine. Your map was great in acceleration but I got quite concerned about the increase in noise coming from my pipes plus I get popping all the time when I reduce gears and it’s very loud.
So I’ll call PC and try to fix it .. Any I dea how to get rid of the popping ??
Cheers
Manuel

EOD J ROD · Jun 25, 2010

mlopez said:
Hi J Rod,
I’ve done everything that you said and nothing !!!!! I get the AFR reading ,After 40 minutes ridding the bike and press the bottom “get table ” I get zeros in all my trim tables.
I’m quite tired and disappointed of this software……. We pay top money in Europe for HD and the last thing that you want is to damage the engine. Your map was great in acceleration but I got quite concerned about the increase in noise coming from my pipes plus I get popping all the time when I reduce gears and it’s very loud.
So I’ll call PC and try to fix it .. Any I dea how to get rid of the popping ??
Cheers
Manuel

PM SENT!!!!! Let me know how it turns out or if it's possible to do.

mlopez · Jun 25, 2010

Many thanks !! I'll let you know for sure

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