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Old 06-01-2008, 05:26 PM   #1
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Exclamation Can someone explain why different maps have different timings?!!

Just out of sheer and utter curiosity I was looking at the spark advance tables from the stock 08 1250 map with 02 sensors (176ZL001), stock 1250 SE 2005-2007 map (159YI002), and a stock 1130 2005-2007 map (159GY002).

What I notice is quite a difference in timing. Anyone care to go into the differences for the sake of education and possibly being able to improve the timing. I've been playing a bit with my timing and the knock sensor data logging and am discovering some fascinating stuff, but this is not my career or what I went to school for so I'd love to learn as much as I can.

One thing I see is in the low MAP sections of the 1130's the timing is much more advanced for example. I'm curious as to why. Also some of the higher MAP areas are actually retarded in the 1130 maps versus the 1250 map.

Any thoughts?
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:04 PM   #2
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The main reason is the amount of data that was used to create the map. It's not public knowledge but a number of the maps that are included with the Race Tuner (and now the Pro Tuner) have never been confirmed on an actual motorcycle. They are nothing more than engineering extrapolations of existing maps taking into account a stock base map plus whatever modification were applied to the bike. A good EFI engineer can usually get a map very close using their knowledge of the system and years of tuning experience. These aren't necessarily bad maps but they are all considered starting points to a real tune.

Most of the earlier maps were validated on Harley dynos and road testing and I think you'll notice that the newer maps are a bit more conservative. Those are "probably" the bench maps vs. that actual validated maps.
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:13 PM   #3
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Mark that brings up 2 questions

1) If the timings are extrapolated data and not real world tuning, why do 99.9% of dynoed tuned maps from shops have absolutely no timing changes at all?!? Either this extrapolated basically unverified timing is accepted as 100% correct, or these tuners are just lazier than I thought.

2) Would it hurt anything if I took a 1130 maps spark advance table and directly applied it to a 1250 map? Lets say if I took the 1130 map up there and transferred the timing to the 1250 map?

Also I'm still curious as to why the different engine size has all the different timing changes. Are there more designs under the surface which require this, like cams, etc.?
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:29 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc View Post
Mark that brings up 2 questions

1) If the timings are extrapolated data and not real world tuning, why do 99.9% of dynoed tuned maps from shops have absolutely no timing changes at all?!? Either this extrapolated basically unverified timing is accepted as 100% correct, or these tuners are just lazier than I thought.
Yes and no. Some tuners will tweak the timing but it's not something they are going to actually be able to dial in without a lot of work, that's why most either don't touch it or simply add a few degrees in WOT and use peak HP to determine whether they helped or hurt.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc View Post
2) Would it hurt anything if I took a 1130 maps spark advance table and directly applied it to a 1250 map? Lets say if I took the 1130 map up there and transferred the timing to the 1250 map?
It probably won't hurt anything but I'm not sure what you might gain either.

If you do this then do a lot of data logging to make sure you don't introduce ignition retard.

The Race Tuner manual does a pretty good job of describing how to adjust timing and detect when you've gone too far.

Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc View Post
Also I'm still curious as to why the different engine size has all the different timing changes. Are there more designs under the surface which require this, like cams, etc.?
Cams and other changes all effect timing. IMHO only the engineers or someone who's tuned a lot of these can tell you what those changes might be.

I compared the older SE Slip Fit map for the 1130 against the newer 1250 "stock" map to see where most of the timing changes were and decided to keep the newer timing because it's more conservative and with the leaner running in the close loop section more advance isn't usually a good thing. YMMV
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Old 06-01-2008, 08:53 PM   #5
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Thanks Mark, great information as usual.
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Old 06-01-2008, 09:44 PM   #6
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99.9% of dyno OPERATORS may not change the timing but any GOOD dyno TUNER will make timing changes throughout the RPM range. Sometimes the changes will be minimal and other times the changes will be more dramatic, depends on the map you start with and how close it is. Don't mistake not changing timing in areas that can't be hit as overlooking an area.

To the original question, the timing in the Maps posted, based on the engine specifications, can vary because of some subtle differences that may not immediately be apparent. For example, the 1130 vs. 1250. Not having specific knowledge on the V-Rod engine I will use generic information that should still apply. Assuming the combustion chamber volume and piston design (flat tops) is the same from the 1130 to the 1250, the 1250 would have a higher compression ratio (squeezing more cylinder volume into the same size area). This in itself would require (or benefit from) different timing tables, all else being equal. The other Map selected above (1250 CVO) is again an all together different engine build, 1250cc, listed CVO heads and listed CVO cam. When compairing the 1250 with the stock cam and heads to the CVO 1250, there again should be different timing requirements because of the performance cams and different heads.

As a side note, I have noticed what seems to be a lumping of ALL dyno tuners into one category. It's a shame to see that because some of us take great pride in the work we do and don't hide behind secret maps, smoke and mirrors.
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Old 06-01-2008, 10:04 PM   #7
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Having the tuning software a burn-test-tweek-burn... type system makes timing changes very time consuming. The way you normally do this on most other systems is to lock the throttle at some MAP value and freeze RPM with the dyno software and then bump the timing up one degree at a time untill either detonation sets in or the torque maxes out. Then you move the dyno up to the next RPM and repeat. The timing is adjusted on the fly from the keyboard.

With a Harley it may be possible to bump the timing accross the board, and the do on track acceleration sweeps. Loud exhaust systems make hearing detonation almost impossible to hear. This can get ugly.

This is an example of what you can see. This example is a pipe change but you can see how the power is far better in the one graph compared to the other. See the RPM/Sec trace in red at the bottom.



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Old 06-02-2008, 06:50 AM   #8
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springer, awesome info. I hate to lump all dyno guys into one label and didn't mean to do that, I've just called around here and asked at least a dozen shops about timing and they all said they usually don't touch it. Also from seeing on these forums and looking at maps. I certainly would love to be in your area to have you tune my bike.

whittlebeast wouldn't using the knock sensor data logging make more sense than listening by ear? I honestly don't know, I'm just curious.
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Old 06-02-2008, 06:59 AM   #9
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The problem is that the pistons could already have holes in them by the time you get back to look at the logs. I have
heard knock on my bike when the SERT was logging and the SERT failed to log the knock. I happen to own a Sportster
and they are very prone to knock per several sources. On a 95 degree day my totally stock bike knocks bad at
anything over 1/3 throttle even on fresh 93 octane.

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Old 06-02-2008, 07:29 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spinedoc View Post
springer, awesome info. I hate to lump all dyno guys into one label and didn't mean to do that, I've just called around here and asked at least a dozen shops about timing and they all said they usually don't touch it. Also from seeing on these forums and looking at maps. I certainly would love to be in your area to have you tune my bike.

whittlebeast wouldn't using the knock sensor data logging make more sense than listening by ear? I honestly don't know, I'm just curious.
I just happen to notice in a few threads that terms like "All Dyno tuners", "99.9%" etc. seemed to be used. I wasn't specifically picking on you, just happened to be a good time to note that we are not all the same.

If you are in Mass, we are only a short trip away. If you are going to Laconia, I will extend a special FREE dyno tune to you during that week. PM me for details if interested.
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Old 06-02-2008, 08:37 AM   #11
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Springer,

I'm guilty of using the term "most" with regard to tuners but it's not due to lack of respect, it's due to what I have directly experienced as well as what I've heard through others.

I tried 5 shops in the Orlando / Daytona area a couple years back and of the 5 only one had a brake dyno (Mustang, crotch rocket shop)). 2 Shops were going to "tune" my bike even though they admitted their O2 sensing gear was not working. 1 shop had a 4 gas analyzer but didn't realize that a 4 gas cannot capture reading during a sweep test and their AFR gear was not working. ALL of these shops were booked up and taking money from unsuspecting customers to "tune" their bikes. I was appalled and swore off the majority of them from that point forward. I have since learned how to tune my own bike and only resort to a dyno run to validate my tuning. Nobody touches the tuning file on my bike except me.
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:41 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjw930 View Post

I compared the older SE Slip Fit map for the 1130 against the newer 1250 "stock" map to see where most of the timing changes were and decided to keep the newer timing because it's more conservative and with the leaner running in the close loop section more advance isn't usually a good thing. YMMV

Where are you guys seeing stock mappings? Every one of the maps I look at indicate that the map is for bikes with the SE AC (ie: Stage-1). I really would like to see what the actual stock map is and look at any differences.


mj.. out of curiosity, where did you get the info that the later maps were not verified by dyno tuning? My contact at moco is a senior project engineer in the P&A Screamin Eagle division and he made a comment to me a couple of weeks ago that the maps were dyno tuned.
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Old 06-02-2008, 09:46 AM   #13
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Originally Posted by mjw930 View Post
Springer,

I'm guilty of using the term "most" with regard to tuners but it's not due to lack of respect, it's due to what I have directly experienced as well as what I've heard through others.

I tried 5 shops in the Orlando / Daytona area a couple years back and of the 5 only one had a brake dyno (Mustang, crotch rocket shop)). 2 Shops were going to "tune" my bike even though they admitted their O2 sensing gear was not working. 1 shop had a 4 gas analyzer but didn't realize that a 4 gas cannot capture reading during a sweep test and their AFR gear was not working. ALL of these shops were booked up and taking money from unsuspecting customers to "tune" their bikes. I was appalled and swore off the majority of them from that point forward. I have since learned how to tune my own bike and only resort to a dyno run to validate my tuning. Nobody touches the tuning file on my bike except me.
We use a 4 gas analyzer and fully understand it does not take gas readings during a sweep. It also is not necessary to read any gasses during a sweep test. All tuning is done using steady state testing. This allows for an accurate gas reading at any given throttle/RPM/load condition. The 4 gas analyzer uses high speed infrared sensing and a separate O2 sensor, not like an O2 sensor found in an exhaust system. We regularly clean the analyzer to keep it in top condition at all times. When I use the term "high speed" it is in reference to other 4 gas analyzers not using infrared technology and should not be confused with instant readings.

The Dyno we use does indeed have an Eddy Current brake. IMO, there is no better way check and tune every cell in a Map than to be able to hit that cell, at will, and hold it. Our Dyno differs from an "Accelerometer" as it actually measures torque and does not calculate it like a common "industry standard" dyno does. Because of this it also allows us to check and calibrate the dyno to ensure accurate readings.

Unfortunately I agree with your analysis of many dyno shops. Not all Dyno Tuners are created equal. Far too many are under trained, misguided or just plain don't have the correct tools to do the job right yet that doesn't stop them from taking your money.

We on the other hand have a "open door" policy. We will invite you in at any level your technical ability allows. For example, we have have a live dyno shop camera that is on 24/7 with sound and zoom if you want to watch. We have a viewing area if the customer wants to watch the entire tuning process while we are tuning his bike, he is welcome to stay. If he wants to help we let them run the computer (if capable). We will stop and explain or answer any questions during the tune. We will supply any data generated, during the tune, at the customers request and always supply a copy of the final Map when done. The customer is welcome back at any time, for free, if they are concerned about any part of the tune or drivability for ANY reason. If the tune is done on a new build, we only tune to a certain RPM and then recommend they bring it back after break in for completion.

When I say "any level your technical ability allows" I mean it. We are not just dyno tuners but we are Factory Authorized Dyno Training Center as well, the only one in the country other than the factory. While this is a brand (dyno) specific authorization we specialize in Harley Davidson tuning/training.

On a final note, it is too bad you have lost trust in everyone that you will not allow anyone to touch your "tuning file". Remember, you can always load in your file if you don't like what "they" do and be right back to where you are now, no harm no foul.
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Old 06-02-2008, 10:25 AM   #14
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Springer

I am impressed.

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Old 06-02-2008, 10:44 AM   #15
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Springer

I am impressed.

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It's a shame your not in Arizona!
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