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Old 07-27-2018, 08:44 AM   #1
hillyardf
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Tuning question

I picked up a set of Stage 3 NA Jones Cams with the upgraded Valve springs and had them installed at the local HD. At the time, I also installed the 58MM Throttle body, Akrapovic exhaust (Custom welded into my TAB slip on muffler) and a Motohooligan Intake and a new set of spark plugs. They tuned the bike with the SE Tuner. I have the Fitzgerald 26T pulley and the bike put down 119 HP at the wheel.

I was expecting the HP to be in the 130's. I'm thinking of taking it to another dealer here in Ohio that races their Destroyer regularly (I didn't know about them racing prior to taking my bike to my local HD which I was told had a V-rod guy there who had a couple Destroyers that he raced. It's obvious that the parts guy either lied, or that guy left prior to me getting everything to have installed on my bike. )

I know that pre-cams, the bike lost 2 HP on the dyno with the pulley swap, but even at 121-122 HP (taking into account for the HP loss with the 26T pulley) could a tune really be worth 10+ HP?

Possible I have the wrong CAMS? Or the CAMS were installed wrong? I know more on the car side, and have degreed in CAMS before, but can you not degree in a CAM on a bike?

Pulls like mad from 5K to 9K and made peak HP at 9K rpm.

I'm planning on swapping back to the 28T pulley, but I'm trying to figure out why this bike didn't make that much more HP after all this work into it.

Bike has 17K miles on it and no other running issues.

Anyone have experience with something like this where a tune could make that much of a difference?
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Old 07-30-2018, 03:48 PM   #2
sburke91
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A few questions:

* What EFI tuner/map are you using?
* Are you still stock stroke
* Does the Akrapovic still have the baffle in it?
* Did the HD dealer degree the cams?

Jones Stage 3 (I assume you mean the 500/460) cams are pretty big for a stock bore/stroke motor with stock-sized valves, even a 1250, but if I were a betting man, I'd say main points of impact are these, in order:

* Tune
* Cam degree (if the HD dealer just bolted the Jones cams up to the stock sprockets, and didn't use the card Mike includes with the cams)
* Akrapovic exhaust
* Valves
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Old 11-26-2018, 09:30 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by sburke91 View Post
A few questions:

* What EFI tuner/map are you using?
* Are you still stock stroke
* Does the Akrapovic still have the baffle in it?
* Did the HD dealer degree the cams?

Jones Stage 3 (I assume you mean the 500/460) cams are pretty big for a stock bore/stroke motor with stock-sized valves, even a 1250, but if I were a betting man, I'd say main points of impact are these, in order:

* Tune
* Cam degree (if the HD dealer just bolted the Jones cams up to the stock sprockets, and didn't use the card Mike includes with the cams)
* Akrapovic exhaust
* Valves
I liked the look of the Acrapovic pipe, that's what my Ducati Diavel has, but was told its a good pipe for a stock V rod. Not so great for a modified v rod. The way it was explained to me was that the primary pipes on our bikes are already to small, the acropovic for the V-rod aren't much if any bigger. makes sense to me. looking at my diavel (1200 cc) the pipes are at least 2 1/4" primaries! close to the same size engine and similar RPM range... the Diavel, even with the huge pipes and 50 less cc's puts out way more power all over the rpm range.
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Old 11-27-2018, 01:20 PM   #4
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Mike Jones specifically stated that Stage 3 cams are NOT for stock displacement Revo engines (nor stock heads).

I'd sell the cams, get S2 cams, reinstall, find a real tuner.

You'll then get what you want. If you stick with the S3 cams you will be chasing your tail (unless you then decide to increase displacement).
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Old 11-27-2018, 07:04 PM   #5
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In addition to what has been said if and when you pull the cam covers be sure the Stg3 cam lobes haven't been hitting inside the cam covers - the full base circle design gets the lobes closer than the reground H-D S/Eagle cams and can require clearance grinding inside the cam cover. Also I really don't think the S/E tuner will work as well as an Alpha N based system like a D.T.T. due to the manifold pressure variations Stg3 cams cause. It's only 10 Hp more than my stock 1130 running rich on the Dyno with a Bub7 exhaust, that's just not right. ( Hope you got it fixed by now, its been 4 months - let us know )
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Old 11-27-2018, 10:06 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by streetrodracer View Post
In addition to what has been said if and when you pull the cam covers be sure the Stg3 cam lobes haven't been hitting inside the cam covers - the full base circle design gets the lobes closer than the reground H-D S/Eagle cams and can require clearance grinding inside the cam cover. Also I really don't think the S/E tuner will work as well as an Alpha N based system like a D.T.T. due to the manifold pressure variations Stg3 cams cause. It's only 10 Hp more than my stock 1130 running rich on the Dyno with a Bub7 exhaust, that's just not right. ( Hope you got it fixed by now, its been 4 months - let us know )
I disagree about your comment in regards to the DTT vs the OEM Delphi ECU.

Alpha N is inferior in almost every way (and ancient). The hybrid alpha-n/speed density system that the OEM ECM uses works and is more than capable of handling cam changes.

I still have not seen any evidence or reason to use an aftermarket ECU solution for the Revo engine unless you go forced induction. Everyone that tells me "You can't really do X without the DTT unit" has no evidence other than hearsay (or advice from a vendor pushing the DTT).

Still not sure why this is so other than blind faith. Same stuff exists in the car world and time after time I have seen (and personally shown) the "limits" of the oem ECU's are often greatly exaggerated.
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Old 11-29-2018, 07:32 PM   #7
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Help ! I'm caught in a EFI spider web !

My bikes an '06 with no O2 sensors. I bought a 2-1 Bub7 pipe with O2 sensor bungs that will accept wide bands. I heard that if you are a rocket scientist my ancient ECU will accept O2 sensor inputs and can be wired up, with narrow band OEM sensors. Lacking any real wiring information from successful guys doing that with narrow band ( wide band sensors are apparently not compatible ) then the only solution is a new ECU. The DTT works with the existing wiring, supports W/B O2 sensors and the security system and guages, etc and it's plug and play, exclusive of tuning it. If you have another solution freudie1 I'm all ears. You are talking to a guy that would like to take all this EFI dual O2 sensor EPA mandated crap and throw it in the trash, and put a downdraft dual 60mm velocity stack single carburetor bowl setup on there and jet it accordingly to perfection. Maybe the newer ECU's can handle Wide band O2 sensors ? I have explored the possibility of replacing the old '06 ECU with an '08 and up but I'm unsure it will plug & play, or work with wide band O2 sensors. All I know is if you depend on manifold pressure to be a fuel adjusting standard it won't be reliable with Stage 3 cams due to MFP variations. Any thoughts are appreciated.
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:33 PM   #8
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I have SE stage 2 cams, motohooligan, stock TB, 30T pulley, Acrapovic and SE super tuner..I don't know how much HP I make because I tune my own bike.. but it's a lot more than a stock v rod and it pulls like a train from 2000 to red line.
I'm working with mytune from tunemyharley.com to data log and generating new VE tables that suit your upgrades

let me know if you want my map,to try or look at it
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Old 11-30-2018, 10:46 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetrodracer View Post
My bikes an '06 with no O2 sensors. I bought a 2-1 Bub7 pipe with O2 sensor bungs that will accept wide bands. I heard that if you are a rocket scientist my ancient ECU will accept O2 sensor inputs and can be wired up, with narrow band OEM sensors. Lacking any real wiring information from successful guys doing that with narrow band ( wide band sensors are apparently not compatible ) then the only solution is a new ECU. The DTT works with the existing wiring, supports W/B O2 sensors and the security system and guages, etc and it's plug and play, exclusive of tuning it. If you have another solution freudie1 I'm all ears. You are talking to a guy that would like to take all this EFI dual O2 sensor EPA mandated crap and throw it in the trash, and put a downdraft dual 60mm velocity stack single carburetor bowl setup on there and jet it accordingly to perfection. Maybe the newer ECU's can handle Wide band O2 sensors ? I have explored the possibility of replacing the old '06 ECU with an '08 and up but I'm unsure it will plug & play, or work with wide band O2 sensors. All I know is if you depend on manifold pressure to be a fuel adjusting standard it won't be reliable with Stage 3 cams due to MFP variations. Any thoughts are appreciated.
I forget the older bikes didn't have 02 sensors.

The newer bikes indeed do have 02 sensors (narrow band of course) and certainly can use WBO sensors with setups like the PowerVision TargetTune setup (what I run personally).

As for retrofitting the older bikes with the newer ECMs/etc....I can't see why it wouldn't be possible, but likely would involve adding wires to the harness and quite a bit of testing. So yes...in YOUR case I believe you are right, DTT is the way to go.

As for Stage 3 and fuel/spark adjustments with MAP based systems....I have tuned some fairly wild setups (cars that is) with speed density systems and have had no real issues. The Delphi system on our bike use alpha-n (essentially) for VE so in combination and a few dyno hours you SHOULD be able to tune around this. From what I recall the DTT is strictly alpha-n unless you go with the forced induction option that then includes speed density (MAP sensor input).
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Old 12-07-2018, 10:31 PM   #10
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The older ecm will work with narrow band o2 sensors. They need to be wired the same as the o2 sensors on a 2008 at the ecm plug
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Old 12-14-2018, 04:58 PM   #11
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put the stock tb back on. get rid of the 58's- overkill.

find someone that knows tuning and have them add timing to the bike.

Put stock front pulley back on for tuning.
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Old 12-19-2018, 06:05 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by freudie1 View Post
Mike Jones specifically stated that Stage 3 cams are NOT for stock displacement Revo engines (nor stock heads).

I'd sell the cams, get S2 cams, reinstall, find a real tuner.

You'll then get what you want. If you stick with the S3 cams you will be chasing your tail (unless you then decide to increase displacement).
the S.E. II cams are very close to the Jones STG. III cams in lift and duration. Im guessing his tune is WAY off and he could use a better pipe. Im wondering also if the outfit that installed the cams may also have used really thick head gaskets and further lowered the compression? the cranking pressure is probably already fairly low with the long duration cams..
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Old 07-02-2019, 11:20 PM   #13
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Update, Thanks for the responses. I had another dealer who does race the V-Rod and won a few championships tune in the bike. It runs great, but we have been working on the performance for about a year now. I ride it for a few months and then start to tinker with it. The bike put down 125 RWHP. I have been toying with the exhaust to get more power, but nothing seems to be working for big gains, just small gains along the way.

I picked the bike up today and it pulls hard, so overall I'm glad that we have got it to this point. The original tune was way out of whack as the A/F ratio was all over the board. The original dealer did give me back what I paid for their dyno time, so that was cool of them.

I did pull of the 26T gear, as I wanted to get good HP numbers on the dyno. I've been back and forth about putting it back on, but it is pretty fast now, so I will probably leave the stock gear on.

I still think there is more power in this bike with this set-up. I think the cams were not installed correctly and they didn't degree them in. I picked up a set of heads that I plan to have ported and new valves installed. I'll have the V-Rod dealer install the heads and degree in the cams. May take me a year or so, but I'll get it where I think it should be, until then, I'll enjoy what power I do have and keep moping up my friends who think their Street Glide or Breakout can take my bike. haha.
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Last edited by hillyardf; 07-02-2019 at 11:23 PM. Reason: add more info
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Old 07-03-2019, 12:51 AM   #14
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Old 07-03-2019, 08:08 AM   #15
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If you want things done right.....

https://www.fitzgeraldmotorsports.com
I have purchased the 26T gear and the new shift rod from him. When I first got the bike, my local HD was trying to get more into the V-Rod. They called down to Scott and talked to him about his Cyl. Head work....but they said he couldn't tell them much, so the were skeptical. I wanted to go to the Midwest Thunder and learn more, but I swapped to a larger baffle and ended up needing a tune, so my bike was back at (Warren HD - races the V-Rod) the dealer and I missed the show.

I started as an auto tech, so I like to learn more details, but hearing that there were not many details made me think I should look elsewhere. I figured that I might head to Vreelands for their head work and then have Warren HD do the install and degree in the cams.
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