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Old 09-22-2019, 09:13 PM   #1
knight rod rob
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Progress. I started a new thread. Not on purpose. Cant undo it. Need permission. I guess. Anyway So far so good. The mess found in water pump housing on the other thread is gasket material the black coating on the gasket peels off the thermostat hsg gasket and the water pump gasket. Not a big deal just collects in the water pump hsg cavity where it bleeds to atmosphere <img src="https://www.1130cc.com/forums/images/smilies/wazzup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="wazzup" class="inlineimg" />. And I decided to modify the oil pan w/ a magnet maybe two more in same area, back at the end of the oil pan near the trans, in hopes to catch more of the debris from a failed trans. Did not find any other issues that have not already mentioned. A thrust bearing worn somewhat on the corner. The Triple sprocket screw did not appear to be loose until I used my electric impact gun and it came loose without a grunt.(If u know what I mean). Since I have never had one of these this far apart, I also noticed the sprocket slides off the shaft hmmm. You would think a key way on the shaft there would be better. So I put loctite on the shaft and loctite the screw. My work area might not look the best, but you can bet that engine is clean.<img src="https://www.1130cc.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif" border="0" alt="" title="Big Grin" class="inlineimg" />
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:06 PM   #2
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Progress. I started a new thread. Not on purpose. Cant undo it. Need permission. I guess. Anyway So far so good. The mess found in water pump housing on the other thread is gasket material the black coating on the gasket peels off the thermostat hsg gasket and the water pump gasket. Not a big deal just collects in the water pump hsg cavity where it bleeds to atmosphere . And I decided to modify the oil pan w/ a magnet maybe two more in same area, back at the end of the oil pan near the trans, in hopes to catch more of the debris from a failed trans. Did not find any other issues that have not already mentioned. A thrust bearing worn somewhat on the corner. The Triple sprocket screw did not appear to be loose until I used my electric impact gun and it came loose without a grunt.(If u know what I mean). Since I have never had one of these this far apart, I also noticed the sprocket slides off the shaft hmmm. You would think a key way on the shaft there would be better. So I put loctite on the shaft and loctite the screw. My work area might look the best, but you can bet that engine is clean.
How old was your water pump cover gasket that it essentially melted/disintegrated? I ask as I just replace a 10 year old gasket on my bike and it was a bit bumpy from rust...but no mess like what you showed.

As for the engine...I would tear it completely down and get it hot tanked. Time to get the debris out of the equation.

Going forced induction? Now would be a good time to drop compression (i.e. lower compression pistons).
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Old 09-22-2019, 10:22 PM   #3
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How old was your water pump cover gasket that it essentially melted/disintegrated? I ask as I just replace a 10 year old gasket on my bike and it was a bit bumpy from rust...but no mess like what you showed.

As for the engine...I would tear it completely down and get it hot tanked. Time to get the debris out of the equation.

Going forced induction? Now would be a good time to drop compression (i.e. lower compression pistons).
2012 bike. The gasket did not disintegrate, the black coating just came off. Well its was torn all the way down as pics from the first post. I am going back together w/ it. I pressure washed with high heat more times than I can count and blow air through all oil passages. I'm sure that will do it THIS TIME lol. As for forced induction just gonna keep it stage one. I really dont want to do this again.Worn out between this and the same shi* at the job lol.
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Old 09-23-2019, 09:54 AM   #4
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And I decided to modify the oil pan w/ a magnet maybe two more in same area, back at the end of the oil pan near the trans, in hopes to catch more of the debris from a failed trans.
Something for you? https://www.drainplugmagnets.com/mot...rley-davidson/ Running 1 myself, better safe than sorry.
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Old 09-23-2019, 10:58 AM   #5
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Is this plug better than the one thats in it. Because the drain plug has a magnet on it, its just not good enough.
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Old 09-23-2019, 11:43 AM   #6
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Is this plug better than the one thats in it. Because the drain plug has a magnet on it, its just not good enough.
Probably better but this isn't the cause of the rod bearings going out. Still, to me, seems a loss of oil pressure briefly at high rpms. Let's face it , you can't be viewing the gauge full time, so it might have been not seen in that second or two it took to happen. Rob. Which oil pump are you running, the 4 lobe or the 9? early pump? Is there any signs of minor pitting on the lobe tips?
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Old 09-23-2019, 03:09 PM   #7
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i often see these vids of guys screwing the shit out of their engines doing burnouts.do they ever wonder what is happening inside the enging doing that?.max ,sustained revs for long periods can lead to sump running dry due to lack of oil ,cavitation being the result,rod bearing failure.that is why the 4 lobe pump was introduced .
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:43 PM   #8
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Running 4 lobe if I remember correctly. I found the pressure relief valve stuck, when I took apart the pump. Remember this is the pump I replaced the last time. Anyway I cleaned up the pressure relief bore so the relief valve slides in and out under its own weight. Pitting on lobes, well a little from when it passed some rod material. I used a magnifying glass to clean it up. As said before the pump itself is fine. I believe the pump relief valve stuck as the bearings started to fail. Because of the amount of damage to the pressure relief was mnimal. I could not get that relief valve out the bore witout considerable effort yet the bore was good. Could see see bits of copper in it though. Its good now. The only damage everyone is the engine bearings and some damage to cams and heads, which I also cleaned up and gonna run it. I KNOW IT NOT THE BEST WAY. I installed cams in head and checked the amount of clearance and compared to the other cams and it is spot on and they rotate very well. There was no other damage to other engine bearing surfaces.
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Old 09-23-2019, 05:49 PM   #9
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I dont do burouts, but I hit the rev at times. So I bought the bike in 2012 new. And now after all the years of racing crotch rockets on and off. Kinda like they wanna run me if they see me on expressway and I might oblidge them lol. At 86k this all of a sudden happens. Why not at 50k. 30 k etc. Rod bearings replaced 2yrs ago.
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Old 09-25-2019, 08:23 AM   #10
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Something for you? https://www.drainplugmagnets.com/mot...rley-davidson/ Running 1 myself, better safe than sorry.
Thanks!
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Old 09-26-2019, 01:12 PM   #11
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Thanks!
Yep, But the only issue is to prevent the oil pump from picking up debris and jamming the relief valve or worse damaging the oil pump. Which I believe is what happen in my case. But I will get the filter magnets also. So It appears we have a issue w/ trans and engine mixing huh go figure lol. Like most trans and gear cases, there is a magnet installed. Not a cure all, just some extra protection for engine mainly.
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Old 10-04-2019, 04:26 PM   #12
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Hello everyone
Well I started it up and it ran well(so far) lol. I ran it about 45min at different rpms. Oil pressure started out at about 50plus and at high coolant temp oil pressure about 20 to 25psi (95 deg day here in Texas).Sounds good, have not rode it yet. Now gonna remove oil pan and inspect oil p/u tube and the three magnets I put in the pan,yep u read right, I added two more to the pan. Removing oil pan just to see how clean or not clean I got it.
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Old 10-05-2019, 07:47 AM   #13
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Hello everyone
Well I started it up and it ran well(so far) lol. I ran it about 45min at different rpms. Oil pressure started out at about 50plus and at high coolant temp oil pressure about 20 to 25psi (95 deg day here in Texas).Sounds good, have not rode it yet. Now gonna remove oil pan and inspect oil p/u tube and the three magnets I put in the pan,yep u read right, I added two more to the pan. Removing oil pan just to see how clean or not clean I got it.
Funny you mentioned oil pressures. I recently moved my gauge to a more easily viewed location so I can see it while riding better. My cold starts have always been 60 psi. Allowing the engine to warm up to 175-180 prior to riding and hitting the road, it's running 70 psi solid. Starting off at less warmup time, it can hit 75-80 psi for a brief period. I've only seen 80 psi once, however. After extended running to get the oil temp up it stays in the 60 psi range. Idle at that temp will be 30 psi. If allowed to get hotter oil temp wise as in multiple fan cycles the hot idle will the odd time drop to about 25 psi. Back when I had a working oil temp gauge, I ran several fan on and off cycles in the shop, where the oil temp got to 210. At that point, idle was 20 psi. My conclusion is, these are not a very close tolerance engines. The recommendation to run 20/50 oil, pretty much proves that. Tight engines with less leakage need lighter oil to lube well and a thicker oil can actually allow a bearing to overheat due to lack of oil flow across the bearing, rod and mains. The other side of the coin can be the lower output late model pumps won't keep up as well at idle with hot oil to sustain a higher idle pressure, not that that's an issue. Any psi above 70 starts turning into a negative effect. I sometimes question if using the early high output pump and 20/50 was a wise choice and the actual reason for the cavitation was the viscosity more then anything else. As for overall lubing, considering the trans, I do feel better with the thicker grade, so all is well as it is currently.
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Old 10-05-2019, 09:38 AM   #14
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Yep Ron I hear ya. Well I removed the pan and still found some small debris.It was on top of the baffle/ pan gasket. Its from the clutch I know. So I reinstalled the pan and run it again. And this time no debris at all. Kinda like I need a final flush. I will replace oil and filter after a few miles. 100 or so. My oil gages are in plain view I posted my set up under shitznit racing I believe. Anyway to some all this up. If u have one of these trans bearing failures and the oil pump survives. Flush oil cooler, and lines,replace bearings. Clean what u can.You can get away with not doing a complete engine tear down. If the oil pump does not survive. A complete tear down and flush is needed. The second bearing failure I had destroyed the pump. The first bearing failure I had did not hurt pump and that same trans bearing failed again 2yrs later. That destroyed the pump. I am gonna remove the pan yet again today after I ride it. I just ran it in the garage earlier and it was to late after all the pan crap. I think my bearing failed due to the oil pump relief sticking from debris. Not suppling enough oil under severe load. We will see.
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Old 10-05-2019, 10:06 AM   #15
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Yep Ron I hear ya. Well I removed the pan and still found some small debris.It was on top of the baffle/ pan gasket. Its from the clutch I know. So I reinstalled the pan and run it again. And this time no debris at all. Kinda like I need a final flush. I will replace oil and filter after a few miles. 100 or so. My oil gages are in plain view I posted my set up under shitznit racing I believe. Anyway to some all this up. If u have one of these trans bearing failures and the oil pump survives. Flush oil cooler, and lines,replace bearings. Clean what u can.You can get away with not doing a complete engine tear down. If the oil pump does not survive. A complete tear down and flush is needed. The second bearing failure I had destroyed the pump. The first bearing failure I had did not hurt pump and that same trans bearing failed again 2yrs later. That destroyed the pump. I am gonna remove the pan yet again today after I ride it. I just ran it in the garage earlier and it was to late after all the pan crap. I think my bearing failed due to the oil pump relief sticking from debris. Not suppling enough oil under severe load. We will see.
The relief can stick in a few positions. Closed or near closed or open. Closed, this will cause way higher then normal psi at rpms. If it sticks open from it's normal pop off point, roughly about 60-65 psi, idle pressure will be very low. Relief valves on oil pumps are generally always closed on hot oil idle since the pressure is always well below the pop off point of 60-65. Idle pressure is a result of pumps lower output due to lower rpm and the amount of pressure leakage in the engine. I seem to remember you saying you saw 100 psi when it stuck once. This will force the valve beyond normal setting and produce a much lower running pressure then it should normally. This might have been the culprit, where it failed to have normal psi of 60-65 at higher rpms when the valve was stuck from the 100 psi point. Purely speculation for the exact cause of rod bearing failure, since nobody views the gauge full time. There is little doubt the debri from the output trans bearing was the start of the failure . Pump and relief valve both see unfiltered oil so it all likely started there for the rod bearing failure. Still sucks. I can't imagine not using an oil pressure gauge and relying on that stupid idiot light that if it comes on above idle as in 4k, it's way too late to save the bearings at that point. Since you posted the first time, now look for any signs of above normal psi, indicating a problem in the relief valve of the pump and what could have caused it.
Ron
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