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Oil and your Wet-Clutch - How and Why?

68K views 64 replies 40 participants last post by  That Guy 
#1 ·
Here is a great write up from Amsoil (maybe even sticky worthy) that describes the operation of your clutch along with the roll the the engine oil has. It does an excellent job of describing why I have always recommended a good motorcycle oil with a JASO MA2 rating over an automotive oil without the frictional rating.

Sure, some people will be able to state they have had no problems with auto oil but that is not always the case. This is especially important in application that seem to be prone to slippage like our beloved V-Rod's.

http://www.modernoils.com/media/pdf_files/TSB_wetclutch_operation.pdf

Ken
 
#3 ·
slipping clut

Help dude. I have an 03 v-rod that ran perfect until i used mobile 1 vtwin for motorcycles. Immediately the clutch slipped horribly. I flushed it out and went to screaming eagle. It slowed the slip, but when i get on it to change lanes and accelerate the rpms walk away, i lose power, and slow way down. It feels likje a slipping clutch.
I upgraded to a Barnett V-rod model clutch and thought that would fix it. The clutch does the exact same thing and the hotter it gets outside the worse it slips. I replaced the clutch--what the hell else could it be. I have taken it to three different harley shops and they say its fine because it works good until the bike warms up. I am way frustrated...what the hell else could it be? Its getting ridiculous and dangerous and no one has an answer. Help!!!
 
#4 ·
Help dude. I have an 03 v-rod that ran perfect until i used mobile 1 vtwin for motorcycles. Immediately the clutch slipped horribly. I flushed it out and went to screaming eagle. It slowed the slip, but when i get on it to change lanes and accelerate the rpms walk away, i lose power, and slow way down. It feels likje a slipping clutch.
I upgraded to a Barnett V-rod model clutch and thought that would fix it. The clutch does the exact same thing and the hotter it gets outside the worse it slips. I replaced the clutch--what the hell else could it be. I have taken it to three different harley shops and they say its fine because it works good until the bike warms up. I am way frustrated...what the hell else could it be? Its getting ridiculous and dangerous and no one has an answer. Help!!!

It sounds like you may have air in your clutch line or bad fluid. I would bet that your clutch fluid is very dark in color greenish most likely. I would suggest your flush with fresh DOT5 fluid and see if that helps.
 
#7 ·
Brentsimnitt,

I'm not saying anything is impossible, but it seems unlikely to me that an engine oil designed for motorcycles would cause clutch slippage. Oil manufacturers know that most motorcycles use wet clutches, so the friction modifiers that go into automotive oils don't go into motorcycle oil. But bear in mind, I don't work for an oil company, and I don't know everything about all the motorcycle oils out there - or even very much, for that matter. Then again, it's possible you grabbed a motor oil, albeit for V-Twins, but still intended for dry clutches. If you really think it was the oil that produced your clutch slippage, I'm afraid I've got some bad news, because though I'm not sure what you mean when you said you flushed the oil, but unless you tear your engine all the way down and clean everything, oil is going to remain in your engine, period. However, I'm not sure how much of the friction modifiers it would take to affect a wet clutch.

You said you got a new clutch, and the problem persisted? Was this before or after you changed your oil? If it was before, it's possible that the problem was indeed the oil, and the friction material on the drive plates of the clutch absorbed the modified oil. It would really behoove you to find out as much as possible about the oil you were using when you first noticed the problem.

All I have at home is my '09 manual, and all it sites in troubleshooting for a slipping clutch is insufficient clutch spring tension and worn friction discs. Did you install the new clutch yourself? Did you have to put it together? If so, is it possible you built or installed it incorrectly?
 
#8 ·
Silly question but using the *friction zone at low speeds on this bike will it burn up the clutch (a HD dealer) told me not too ride the clutch no matter what> that makes no sense because if you dont ride your clutch and drag your brake you have no low speed control...

thanks
 
#9 ·
Silly question but using the *friction zone at low speeds on this bike will it burn up the clutch (a HD dealer) told me not too ride the clutch no matter what> that makes no sense because if you dont ride your clutch and drag your brake you have no low speed control...

thanks
Say what?
 
#12 ·
Well I came from street bikes and they have wet clutches and I assumed these did too, obviously they do. This guys giving me some false info a few times already so i thought id ask other riders cause i was using the friction zone anyway an dragging brake for slow speed stuff, and front brake at high speeds. Also you never know were the info is coming from unless you ride with em eh..... :chainsaw:
 
#16 ·
Confusion

I read the amsoil article and became confused. It states that there is a separate sump for the transmission and the clutch. The owners manual specifically states that the oil in the sump is used for the engine, transmission, primary, and clutch. What's the right answer? I probably wouldn't have said anything, but the article specifically stated v-rod.
 
#22 ·
I read the amsoil article and became confused. It states that there is a separate sump for the transmission and the clutch. The owners manual specifically states that the oil in the sump is used for the engine, transmission, primary, and clutch. What's the right answer? I probably wouldn't have said anything, but the article specifically stated v-rod.
Actually it states:

The first is where there is a separate fluid reservoir for the clutch
keeping it isolated from the engine and transmission. An example
of this configuration is the primary-drive chain case found on
recent models of Harley-Davidson motorcycles
(exceptions include
Sportsters and V-Rods)
.
 
#17 ·
I'm not starting a fight and I know there will be people to agrue this and it will never change my mind but all my bikes including my honda 929, 3 yfz 450's (2 o4 models and a newer 09), kids honda 90, honda pilot, and vrod with 10,008 miles today all have had only castrol GTX with absolutely no tranny or clutch issues in any of them.

I will also state that if I knew better I would just buy the stuff thats double the money but I cannot buy something like that when I have no reason. I'm sure there is valid points and I'm sure it does some good but I have no issues with wet clutches with this oil. Not trying to argue just adding to the topic my personal experiences over the last 15 years with GTX product.
 
#18 ·
Have a question. Are you using 20W-50 by chance? Also, I called up castrol and there is not a friction rating and they do not recommend it for motorcycles since it only has an automobile rating. Is there a reason your not using the motorcycle castrol, or do you just prefer GTX. I ask because I have a case of 20W-50 GTX that has been sitting on my shelf and I am contemplating using it on a 64 panhead instead of wasting money on the screamin eagle brand. HD will not endorse any other oil if you call them.
 
#20 ·
My thoughts were really, how advanced was the oil in 64. I just wanted to see if anyone else had done this before doing it myself. I plan on primary and engine sump for it. For my 08 VRSCDXA, I will stick with SE for now just because of how much oil I'm burning (if it becomes a warranty issue). I called HD and they said that a qt/1000 miles is in spec. I only have 5K on the bike right now, and it sucks to have to put a quart of oil in the saddlebags because I'm making a weekend trip.
 
#21 ·
Switch to Amsoil and run the :stac: out of the bike & I mean run it, WOT to red line through the gears and plenty of engine breaking for a couple of hundred mile and I guarantee your oil use will fade to zero. :deal:
 
#29 ·
I was going to post a question about what type of oil to use. Synthetic or regular. I had two dealerships tell me different. I noticed when I used synthetic I had issues with my clutch. (Especially when the bike got warmer) Once I went back to regular, I had no issues. So my question was going to be to see what other were using and if they had an a clutch issue using sythetic?
 
#32 ·
I think brentsimnitt needs to change and bleed his clutch actuating fluid.

O2man98, you have to admit that the Amsoil write-up you are so proud of does confuse the V-rod oil reservoir setup. The V has only one sump as you know; they are trying to say the engine oil is separate from the tranmission/clutch. Not true. Don't get me wrong, I use your Amsoil and am very high on it, but the article has this issue confused. Otherwise, the article is excellent. Thanks much.
 
#33 ·
I think brentsimnitt needs to change and bleed his clutch actuating fluid. ...
If the slip is related to the hydraulic fluid, bleeding won’t help. Air in the system will cause the opposite problem. The hydraulic pressure will be reduced when the clutch lever is squeezed and the clutch won’t release making it hard to shift.

A slipping clutch means the plates are contaminated (bad oil), the plates are worn, there’s too much fluid in the reservoir, and/or the compensating port is plugged.

Bad oil and worn plates are sometimes the problem but it's more likely to be excess fluid or a blocked port preventing the slave cylinder from moving back when the lever is released causing the clutch to slip.
 
#34 ·
If there is air in the clutch system, as the fluid get hotter (which he is complaining about) the air in the system will expand and cause the actuator to apply pressure on the clutch. Just like if you have air in the brake lines the brake will begin to drag and eventually lock up from the expansion of the air in the line.
 
#36 ·
sorry i have to agree with steve975.. i have seen several v-rods with the fluid aired up and the only real problem is you can`t release the clutch fully and that causes the clutch to drag... as long as the bleed back hole in the master cyl is clear the hose to the slave cyl can`t build up pressure..
 
#37 · (Edited)
In my experience, a building pedal, or in this case, clutch, where the toe-play or free play diminishes with application, either the compensator port in the master cylinder is obstructed or the pedal / lever clearance is incorrect and not allowing full piston return. Another possibility that I have encountered is slight swelling of the primary cup. When this swelling occurs, it is possible for an otherwise normal appearing cup to block the port. I have overcome this by back-filling the system, thereby applying pressure to 'apply' the cup thereby pushing it past the compensator port. This technique works well and if successful, doesn't negatively affect the hydraulic system's operation. Check with the service manual for the correct lever to piston clearances and be sure not to reduce the clearances below those tolerances.
Another possibility that I have run into is where the piston doesn't retract fully at all! I have found, especially with DOT 5, that there can be a build-up of gummy to hard crud which prevents the piston from traveling the entire length of the bore (conflict). It is possible that the original assembly lube, (silicone paste or jelly), may not wash away as one would normally find in a more traditional brake/hydraulic system using DOT 3 or 4, leaving that assembly lube to collect, harden and then jam up the works. Careful disassembly and inspection of the master will allow you to clean and correct these issues.
And remember that moisture finds its lowest point in hydraulic systems. After looking at your master, look closely at your slave or actuator. Be sure you have clearance and be very sure that it doesn't bind! It should retract with little resistance (watch out for fluid spillage from master when doing this test - see service manual)
The fact that you had the problem with 2 oils, 2 clutches all of which were different than the former, tells me you have been looking in the wrong lunch-box. Good luck
 
#40 ·
Here's another long shot. If you fill the master cyl. completely to the top, the oil has nowhere to go when it expands. Quite likely the clutch will begin to disenagage when the oil becomes hot. I have seen it happen on brake systems. It is not like a car which usually has a diaphragm with an air space above it in the lid.
I don't know about yours, but my bike has rubber bellows cover gaskets which act exactly the same as any hydraulic reservoir cover designed to exclude air/moisture, yet allow for volumetric changes. And no.. air cannot apply clutches, but lbrown points to exactly what to I referred to back in September '10 - that the compensator port sometimes gets blocked (either with 'scum' or the primary boot) which prevents complete pressure release after clutch activation.
 
#41 ·
Does the clutch lever get harder to press as the engine warms up? Does it disengage the clutch sooner? How far does the clutch lever need to be squeezed before it disengages?

I wonder if your hydraulic line is collapsed internally preventing the pressure from fully releasing.
 
#42 ·
Are you asking a general question or responding to a previous post? If responding to a previous post, which one?

The last poster with a problem was post #3 from "brentsimnitt" back in February, 2009. All the other posts after this one (other than yours and this one) was either a discussion of the proper engine oil for a wet clutch or in response to brentsimnitt's problem.
 
#45 ·
I've just discovered why my clutch goes soft and needs an occasional re-bleed!~
I found the actuator piston seal seeping fluid into the engine/clutch cavity! The boot was keeping the fluid mostly inside until the pressure swelled the boot enough to push it over the actuator nub, thereby making the clutch feel 'rubbery' and lower to the point that it wouldn't release. I drained the escaped fluid from the cavity within the boot and piston, turned the actuator (this is with it in your hands, but still connected) up and gently sqeezed the piston down, back into the body. Abundant air bubbles came out and continued to until all the air escaped past the defective piston seal. Now I realize that even though I am running the best oil, it is now contaminated with a bit of DOT-5 brake fluid. Uh ohh:hitfan:
 
#49 ·
What he was referring the clutch riding is fine in first gear. Not that you would but you can't ride the clutch in any other gear. It creates a horrible sound and wears on the plates. Again I don't know why you would ride with the clutch in any gear but first but it'll tear some stuff up. But if you couldn't ride clutch in first people would be burning tires left and right.
 
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