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Old 02-17-2019, 06:19 PM   #31
rynyoung
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Originally Posted by coastrider View Post
Excellent explanation, thank you. Glad to see there is someone else out there that understands basic physics. Once again thank you for the time you put into your explanation.
Thank You.....learning myself so writing down thoughts along the way helps that process.
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Old 02-17-2019, 07:42 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by swampboogiedoug View Post
rynyoung Everything said about porting goes for cams as well. There are differences between what you need from blower to turbo, contact Jones. With the additional lift & porting, mathematically you should be looking at a 25-30 % hp gain at the same boost, being conservative. This would put you over 200 at the rear wheel. I would not drop that low on the compression, you need it with a small motor to get moving initially. Look up conversations with Ken Dutwieller about cr's on his turbo motors. You will need a good plenum and tune. There are members here running methanol & larger turbos making in excess of 300 hp at the rear wheel. I believe water/meth injection would be an asset if injected precompressor for charge cooling, compressor sealing and detonation control. Simply haven't had time to work on that project.
Thank You for response. I’ve been a little skittish of the lower compression too – especially since most of my riding will be on highway (lower rpm range). I will look into that more if it’s not too late – will have to check with builder. Have been out of touch due to work load.

While motor apart, contemplating mods where I can get biggest bank for buck in terms of HP / $ Invested. Got significant ROI from adding boost / supercharger. Interested in mod options where I can get similar ROI measured at seat of pants.

So in a nutshell, your saying that my cylinder pressure prior to start of compression stroke is < plenum pressure? I’m implicitly assuming they are pretty close.

I may have 13psi measured in the intake runners (which may be < plenum psi due to intake restrictions), but restrictions beyond that point (valve train) result in < 13psi inside the cylinder at time piston is @ BDC (max cyl vol)?

So by eliminating inefficiencies in the heads I can raise the cylinder pressure closer to pressure in the plenum?

Or are you saying the issue is also caused by stock cam timing / duration – intake valves closing too soon or exhaust not being completely/efficiently evacuated from cylinder prior to intake stroke? If my budget allowed for only one mod, should I do a cam or porting in your opinion?

Do you by chance have before / after dyno numbers on your motor where only change was heads (or know where someone else has posted their before/after numbers? I'm not racing and have to pay retail for everything so squeezing out another 5-10 HP for an additional $3-5K doesn't meet my ROI hurdle since won't make difference in winning / losing a races as I'm riding down the highway, but 20-30% gain (40-60hp) might squeeze out enough additional terror/adrenaline to justify it if I could find some way to "prove it out to myself".

I’m “convinced” on the water methanol (WM) side of things for sure. Not just for performance gains, but in terms of protecting my investment on the engine itself by keeping temperatures down and preventing detonation under high load – reasons I am having to rebuild engine now (see Pics). Seems would get these benefits whether injected before or after compressor but I saw a system design I found interesting where guy was injecting his car pre-compressor as you mentioned.

He was using compressor pressure to pressurize the WM tank. (seems like could use some sort of multiplier system similar to vacuum pwr brakes) This pressurized the tank pushing water to an injector spraying into the compressor fan. More pressure = more flow. Eliminated need for a water pump making system simpler – less parts to fail. Fan also atomizes the water. Also eliminated the on/off single flow rate problem with water pump setup; allowing flow rate to vary depending on needs of engine (perhaps more of an advantage with the supercharger setup since there is a constant liner relationship between rpm’s and boost pressure. Downside is spraying water into a fan spinning xxx,000 rpm’s. Do you not see that as a problem for the compressor fan?

If you ever get around to putting together a system I would be interested. I don’t have the knowledge necessary to do it myself and don’t have any shops in my area that I can rely on for that type of outside the box stuff.
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Old 02-17-2019, 08:16 PM   #33
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Originally Posted by swampboogiedoug View Post
rynyoung...... I would not drop that low on the compression, you need it with a small motor to get moving initially. Look up conversations with Ken Dutwieller about cr's on his turbo motors.
Is this the conversation you are talking about:

Quote:
Originally Posted by swampboogiedoug View Post
I can see the difference on cam timing. How about compression & head gaskets to lower it?
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Originally Posted by CamKing View Post
It depends on what you're planning on doing.
Lower compression with higher boost will make more top-end power until you can't get a big enough turbo.

Higher compression with less boost will make more low-end power andwill have less turbo lag.
Several years ago I ran across a thread here on (I think) 1130cc.com with extensive discussions where a builder / engineer / racing team talked about their results with different compression pistons in the V Rod revolution engine. It had a ton of information where people were discussing the original expectations and how/why they did not pan out as expected - specifically relating to this engine design. I know they were saying the lower compression results were not as expected (disappointing) but I can't remember how low they went and exactly what they were trying achieve or why they were disappointing.

Frustrating because I remember it exists somewhere but I can't find it now that I need it.
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Old 02-18-2019, 05:41 PM   #34
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Bigfoot & Aliens

Follow up to last post with........

Based on information I have gleaned from various sources, and how I use my bike, I think the best option would be to keep compression close to stock (not higher, but maybe a little lower) and add a water methanol (WM) setup to it.

This would retain higher stock torque at lower rpm AND provide cooling / detonation prevention when the bike it under load. Set it up to inject water ONLY under high load. So the bike would retain its' OEM power profile under low load / cruising conditions but unchain the Monster within when throttle is cracked open.

Problem there is, don't have the knowledge / experience needed to R&D a properly functioning kit myself and haven't found anybody who makes / sells one turnkey setup for the V-Rod. I hear about people who are using them third hand here and there but don't know how to go about getting in touch with one of those people who is willing/able to help out with mine - which would include getting the bike tuned with it (one more layer of complexity).

Finding a V Rod WM setup feels sort of like trying to find proof Bigfoot or Aliens...... Lots of reports from people who have seen or claim to have been abducted by them, but nobody can tell where to go so I can see them for myself.
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Old 03-01-2019, 09:04 AM   #35
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Making a few calls today. I'll see if I can get a certain someone to chime in on the forum.

I do have to say, the reason we do NOT see alot of these innovators on this forum is due to the hostility and doubt expressed all too often.

The person I want to chime in here has been questioned repeatedly despite proving himself for years.

This should be interesting hopefully.

As for my pictures/specs....coming hopefully this spring. I have 3 massive projects I am working on that should blow a few minds. I'm hoping it's appreciated as I've literally lost weeks of sleep due my schedule the last few months (I enjoy it though, just saying the work load is insane).

Software or wrench....software or wrench.....typical day/night lately.
Think I know the guy. Anyway, I've asked his competition a question regarding methods of tuning for boost, keeping the Delphi. On that note, from what I know, Delphi handles to 100kpa no problem and a second 2-3 bar controller is used for the boosted areas with possibly a third injector. Still no reply from the expert but it's done every day, retaining the speed density and ion sensing.
Ron
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Old 03-08-2019, 05:12 PM   #36
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Texted James Ramsey this afternoon. He uses the Thundermax for boosted Vrods. I asked him about features of the Tmax. His reply " With the tunes I create the fuel and timing is offset relative to pressure. The maps are also offset relative to the ambient conditions. Different applications require different offsets. The manual ( Tmax) doesn't cover any of the forced induction information adequately. It really doesn't cover much on the advanced tuning. With a properly built map, the closed loop portion does a good job of maintaining the fuel curve." I asked him about contact info & possible dyno maps to share; "people who use dyno charts to reference quality of tune don't know what they're talking about. Anyone can tune a bike at wide open, with no load and not factoring in aerodynamic drag. Shop line is (602) 617-7776 [email protected]"
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Old 03-09-2019, 03:39 PM   #37
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Originally Posted by swampboogiedoug View Post
Texted James Ramsey this afternoon. He uses the Thundermax for boosted Vrods. I asked him about features of the Tmax. His reply " With the tunes I create the fuel and timing is offset relative to pressure. The maps are also offset relative to the ambient conditions. Different applications require different offsets. The manual ( Tmax) doesn't cover any of the forced induction information adequately. It really doesn't cover much on the advanced tuning. With a properly built map, the closed loop portion does a good job of maintaining the fuel curve." I asked him about contact info & possible dyno maps to share; "people who use dyno charts to reference quality of tune don't know what they're talking about. Anyone can tune a bike at wide open, with no load and not factoring in aerodynamic drag. Shop line is (602) 617-7776 [email protected]"
Tmax support is likely the worst there is and in his case everything costs extra in the support department. Done the Tmax thing once and it was ok but once was enough. Same old cookie cutter explanations if there's problem or all you hear is crickets. If I was to go AlphaN again, most likely it would be DTT,(sorry John) mostly because I like the rest of their products. In the end, nothing can compare to the Delphi for reliability, so a second controller for boost is still the best solution to me. The amount of DTT or Tmax Ecu failures for the cost of the damn things doesn't sit well with me.
Ron
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Old 03-11-2019, 01:09 PM   #38
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Ron, Thanks for your opinion. How about if you give us a step by step on the install & tuning of the piggy back controller of your choice so we can all see that option ?
BTW James Ramsey is an independent tuning provider specializing in race / boosted applications for Harleys
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Old 03-11-2019, 02:25 PM   #39
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Dont poke him. He's liable to make you look silly. And Ron, you know my feelings on DTT. While I assume a good tuner, it IS NOT the right one for every Vrod in every level of performance. Like everything, there is a time and a place for them.
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Old 03-11-2019, 06:35 PM   #40
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Good luck Doug. Great to see you around.
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Old 03-12-2019, 10:48 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by swampboogiedoug View Post
Ron, Thanks for your opinion. How about if you give us a step by step on the install & tuning of the piggy back controller of your choice so we can all see that option ?
BTW James Ramsey is an independent tuning provider specializing in race / boosted applications for Harleys
One option is this. Power Commander V - PTi to handle beyond 100kpa and keep the Delphi.
http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...mmander_v.aspx
Problem is , by the time you go through all the bs and costs, might as well go AlphaN and be done with it. Be it Tmax or DTT. The path of least resistance when it comes to calibrations, at the cost of losing knock detection of course.
Ron
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Old 03-13-2019, 12:42 PM   #42
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Looked at the DynoJet stuff link you posted. My plan would be to take the bike to someone like Steve Morris in Michigan & have him do a tune on his eddy current dyno using my Tmax ECU. I'd get two maps, one all out race fuel & the other a street tune. Would it have anti knock - No, but would it be close enough for my purposes with either map & still be a reasonably safe tune ? IMO- yes
Can anyone walk us thru a tune with the Powercommander ?
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Old 03-13-2019, 02:51 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by swampboogiedoug View Post
Looked at the DynoJet stuff link you posted. My plan would be to take the bike to someone like Steve Morris in Michigan & have him do a tune on his eddy current dyno using my Tmax ECU. I'd get two maps, one all out race fuel & the other a street tune. Would it have anti knock - No, but would it be close enough for my purposes with either map & still be a reasonably safe tune ? IMO- yes
Can anyone walk us thru a tune with the Powercommander ?
Basically you set the voltage and pressure tables that are in play for the 3 bar sensor. Think of it as a switching table. There are calibration edits in the software for this. From there it's auto tune to the new requirements.
Here's a shitty annoying vid but it give the basic idea. Easy, not really as is with any new software the first time as are the end results, with any of them. I've not personally used it but it is interesting.
Ron
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Old 03-13-2019, 08:50 PM   #44
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One option is this. Power Commander V - PTi to handle beyond 100kpa and keep the Delphi.
http://www.powercommander.com/powerc...mmander_v.aspx
Problem is , by the time you go through all the bs and costs, might as well go AlphaN and be done with it. Be it Tmax or DTT. The path of least resistance when it comes to calibrations, at the cost of losing knock detection of course.
Ron
Warning: The Power Commander is a piggy back device (aka signal modifier). You will always be fighting the Delphi ECU in this scenario. Can it work? Sure. Is it reliable or predictable, not so much. I have dealt with piggyback devices on countless vehicle platforms over the years. I always end up depositing them into the recycle bin when a client brings one over.

What are they good for? When you are dealing with an OEM ECU that has not been "cracked" yet. That's about it....last resort.
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Old 03-14-2019, 07:30 AM   #45
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I think its GREAT to see this discussion. Alot of experience here. Most all making good points, from personal experience. Priceless!!!!! Thank you all
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