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Old 08-10-2019, 12:14 AM   #1
freudie1
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Clutch Install Dilemma

Ok,

So I have Carsten's (Holy Moto) billet clutch basket and billet lifter plate.

I also have the Barnett carbon fiber clutch kit (9 frictions/8 steels) and springs (black in appearance).

Situation/Issue:

I believe I have everything friction/steel wise installed correctly (followed the diagram and have the two "special" frictions on the clutch pressure plate side (with a steel in between of course, and the third "special" friction on the hub side (yes I have the spring seat and the damper spring facing upwards with the third special friction fitting around the damper spring, then the one larger steel).

I also have the steels all in the correct orientation (i.e. flat side up...).

THE ISSUE:

So I think I'm "In like Flynn". Not so. The issue is when I finished reassembly the clutch lever won't move at all.

The clutch pack does NOT move in and out of the basket. It's stuck.

So......

After disassembling the pack and trying countless times (see pictures as you will see I even have the knockoff clutch alignment tool) I can't get the friction tabs to get slightly misaligned while torquing the 4 lifter plate bolts.

Facts:

I have been tightening the 4 lifter plate bolts in a criss cross/slow as she goes fashion.

It ALWAYS seems to go a bit out of alignment (the tabs) when I get to the torque wrench (using the 9.7 nm rating in the book) and then is stuck in the basket (unless I unbolt the lifter plate a bit). It looks like to me the lifter plate collar is hitting the hub and then when I torque to stock values the plates shift due to the meeting of the two worlds.....

Thoughts:

Is it possible with the combination of Carsten's billet lifter plate (the collar if you will seems to be a tad longer than the stock unit) AND the Barnett slipper clutch kit (the springs are quite a bit taller than the oem) that the lifter plate bolts should be torqued LESS than the stock 9.7 nm/86 in-lbs value??

I read in another thread on this forum (Tie One On??) mentioning Barnett told him "5-6 nm" with their kit.

Is this true? That would make sense to me, but I'm not willing to slap it together without some input regarding the lower torque value.

Other thought: I can't recall if the OEM lifter plate "collar" touches the hub when torqued down. Seems to me it did NOT as that would prohibit spring movement. As you can see in my pictures when I use the oem torque values the collar DOES touch the hub.

A virtual beer (or free product that I produce, your choice...) IF you can help me solve this . Well maybe a massive discount...I'm annoyed that I blew an afternoon on a freaking clutch so the advice will go a long way with me
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Last edited by freudie1; 08-10-2019 at 12:14 AM. Reason: Format
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Old 08-11-2019, 12:01 AM   #2
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Can someone confirm if the OEM lifter plate "collar" DOES or DOES NOT touch the hub when torqued down in a stock setup?

I took pics during disassembly but not good enough as I can't tell (or remember) from the pics if there is a slight gap. I would think there IS a gap as how else would the springs move the pack in and out???
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:08 PM   #3
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So a pre-holiday miracle happened. I was emptying the shop trash can and found the OEM lifter plate at the bottom.....

So I removed the Carsten/Holy Moto billet lifter plate and installed the OEM lifter plate.

Amazingly the plate torqued down to 9.7 nm (oem/book value) resulted in........plate alignment still and NO issue slide in and out of the basket.

Fact #1: The OEM lifter plate DOES (repeat DOES) have a small gap between the "throat" and the hub face. I was able to put a decent sized small screw driver head in the gap for reference in the picture. This makes sense as there MUST be some movement between the hub and the pressure plate as the lifter is forced away from the hub.

POSSIBLE FACT #2: It looks based on my results and pictures (see picture with level showing drastic "throat" height differences that the Holy Moto lifter plate was not cut short enough resulting in the contact issues against the hub face and the resultant plate misalignment.

Anyone agree/have some comments? Am I the only one to try and install the lifter plate from Holy Moto? If it's simply a case of sloppy machine work (sorry, but if it's too long that's the nicest thing I can say) then I will have my machinist cut the throat down a bit to match OEM length.
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Old 08-11-2019, 03:48 PM   #4
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[QUOTE=freudie1;4745905]So a pre-holiday miracle happened. I was emptying the shop trash can and found the OEM lifter plate at the bottom.....

So I removed the Carsten/Holy Moto billet lifter plate and installed the OEM lifter plate.

Amazingly the plate torqued down to 9.7 nm (oem/book value) resulted in........plate alignment still and NO issue slide in and out of the basket.

Fact #1: The OEM lifter plate DOES (repeat DOES) have a small gap between the "throat" and the hub face. I was able to put a decent sized small screw driver head in the gap for reference in the picture. This makes sense as there MUST be some movement between the hub and the pressure plate as the lifter is forced away from the hub.

POSSIBLE FACT #2: It looks based on my results and pictures (see picture with level showing drastic "throat" height differences that the Holy Moto lifter plate was not cut short enough resulting in the contact issues against the hub face and the resultant plate misalignment.

Anyone agree/have some comments? Am I the only one to try and install the lifter plate from Holy Moto? If it's simply a case of sloppy machine work (sorry, but if it's too long that's the nicest thing I can say) then I will have my machinist cut the throat down a bit to match OEM length.[/QUOTE

My take on this is that I think what is sold by barnetts is a 9 disk pack while the lifter plate is sized for a stock clutch pack of only 8 disks.
In running thru all these same issues I put the stock lifter plate with only 4 holes into the 9 disk pack installed into the holy moto clutch basket and it looked to have much more room in depth. Seeing that my stock lifter plate was a 4 bolter I could not test it further.
I still have the HM basket and lifter plate for sale if anyone would like one. They are of superior quality and well worth the money.
I suggest not to use the 9 disk pack with it though.
Now I did load my stock clutch packet into the HM basket and trie to torq it and couldnt so not sure why.
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Old 08-11-2019, 04:20 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tie_One_On View Post
My take on this is that I think what is sold by barnetts is a 9 disk pack while the lifter plate is sized for a stock clutch pack of only 8 disks.
In running thru all these same issues I put the stock lifter plate with only 4 holes into the 9 disk pack installed into the holy moto clutch basket and it looked to have much more room in depth. Seeing that my stock lifter plate was a 4 bolter I could not test it further.
I still have the HM basket and lifter plate for sale if anyone would like one. They are of superior quality and well worth the money.
I suggest not to use the 9 disk pack with it though.
Now I did load my stock clutch packet into the HM basket and trie to torq it and couldnt so not sure why.
Not sure where you are getting your quantities from in regards to frictions and steels. I had 9 frictions and 8 steels in my OEM/never been touched clutch pack. This is a slipper clutch from a 2009 Muscle.

The Barnett kit I have (part # 303-30-20040) has the EXACT same # of steels and frictions. In fact, I believe there is no such thing as an "extra plate" kit for the slipper clutches (there was indeed for the non-slipper older clutch packs).

Almost positive the collar wasn't cut short enough on the billet lifter plate. You can see a machine mark right about where the oem collar/throat ends on the billet version. The ONLY install I have seen of this is Jan-Dirk's, however I noticed his is the older 5 bolt/non slipper style. It also looks like a shorter throat than the 4 bolter I have.

Has ANYONE that bought the 4 bolt version of the Holy Moto billet lifter plate installed it yet?
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Old 08-11-2019, 07:34 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freudie1 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tie_One_On View Post
My take on this is that I think what is sold by barnetts is a 9 disk pack while the lifter plate is sized for a stock clutch pack of only 8 disks.
In running thru all these same issues I put the stock lifter plate with only 4 holes into the 9 disk pack installed into the holy moto clutch basket and it looked to have much more room in depth. Seeing that my stock lifter plate was a 4 bolter I could not test it further.
I still have the HM basket and lifter plate for sale if anyone would like one. They are of superior quality and well worth the money.
I suggest not to use the 9 disk pack with it though.
Now I did load my stock clutch packet into the HM basket and trie to torq it and couldnt so not sure why.
Not sure where you are getting your quantities from in regards to frictions and steels. I had 9 frictions and 8 steels in my OEM/never been touched clutch pack. This is a slipper clutch from a 2009 Muscle.

The Barnett kit I have (part # 303-30-20040) has the EXACT same # of steels and frictions. In fact, I believe there is no such thing as an "extra plate" kit for the slipper clutches (there was indeed for the non-slipper older clutch packs).

Almost positive the collar wasn't cut short enough on the billet lifter plate. You can see a machine mark right about where the oem collar/throat ends on the billet version. The ONLY install I have seen of this is Jan-Dirk's, however I noticed his is the older 5 bolt/non slipper style. It also looks like a shorter throat than the 4 bolter I have.

Has ANYONE that bought the 4 bolt version of the Holy Moto billet lifter plate installed it yet?
My bike is an 06 and if I remember correctly in 08 they HD put slippers in everything. before 08 was no slippers so missing 1 plate.
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Old 08-12-2019, 07:20 PM   #7
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CONFIRMED: It's the billet lifter plate collar not being cut short enough during machining.

For confirmation I just reassembled the clutch pack (with the Barnett's clutch/spring kit) using the OEM lifter plate, torqued to 9.7 nm (OEM torque spec) on all 4 bolts.

Clutch lever pulls in nice and smooth/easy.

Bike rolls forward with zero issue with clutch lever pulled in as expected.

Hoping someone else can confirm this as I'm about to have the collar machined to OEM height. I expect 100% success, but would love some confirmation before I modify an unobtanium part!
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Old 08-14-2019, 05:24 AM   #8
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I concede with you, "there MUST be some movement between the hub and the pressure plate as the lifter is forced away from the hub"
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:21 AM   #9
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First, I have not myself done this. Just applying my machinist mind, and years of playing with all things mechanical:
There MUST be movement for the clutch to release. In my experience 1 to 1.5mm will due. If the top bottoms on the basket, there is no way physically possible to release the clutch pack. So either the HM unit would have a counter bore in back, to allow it to go further onto the shaft, thus allowing release (which I highly doubt there is room back there for that) OR he just plain effed up. That I suspect is the case. The cost to ship to Germany, take what looks like 3mm off, and return to you is not worth your time, or aggravation. Personally, I dont see the need for a "billet" clutch basket. Unless made from a more exotic material that will take more torsion, I dont see the point. Now on the friction disk material, and POSSIBLY the steels, I see a need for. I'm certain HD didnt use the best available. Just a couple thoughts.
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Old 08-16-2019, 09:23 AM   #10
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On another note, I vaguely recall seeing something about this in one of my many fb groups. It's been awhile, but I think the end result was the guy put the stock basket back in. It's been awhile ago though.........
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Old 08-16-2019, 11:23 AM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnr204 View Post
On another note, I vaguely recall seeing something about this in one of my many fb groups. It's been awhile, but I think the end result was the guy put the stock basket back in. It's been awhile ago though.........
The basket is fine, it's the lifter plate that is machined wrong (collar is too long/high). We are sticking it in the mill this weekend to correct.

As for the billet basket, there are numerous pictures/cases of high horsepower V-rod's breaking the cast OEM basket (some subtle, some very drastic).
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Old 08-21-2019, 01:04 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freudie1 View Post
The basket is fine, it's the lifter plate that is machined wrong (collar is too long/high). We are sticking it in the mill this weekend to correct.

As for the billet basket, there are numerous pictures/cases of high horsepower V-rod's breaking the cast OEM basket (some subtle, some very drastic).
Please state what the height is cut down to.
I will need this done to mine so I can try to install it again.
Important to have it since I am running a supercharger on my bike
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Old 09-06-2019, 11:16 PM   #13
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So the dark deed is done. 5 mm if I recall had to be cut (late night so might be off a tad). What is "funny" is it was essentially right at the tooling mark that lined up with the height of the OEM piece.........*face palm*.

None the less, action shot and finished result shot attached. Maybe I can ride the bike again before snow.....(as you can tell I am less than impressed that this part was sold in this condition let alone the lack of ANY response to confirm the "oops", such is life glad I didn't purchase more from said out of business shop).
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Old 09-07-2019, 11:38 AM   #14
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what is the advantage in the Billet lifter plate?? does the stock one fail? also do you think an OEM duplicate from billet alum would be just as good as the HM one? i'm thinking about getting some things 3D scanned and drawings made so i can have a machinist make them..
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Old 09-07-2019, 12:11 PM   #15
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what is the advantage in the Billet lifter plate?? does the stock one fail? also do you think an OEM duplicate from billet alum would be just as good as the HM one? i'm thinking about getting some things 3D scanned and drawings made so i can have a machinist make them..
The oem lifter plate ears will crack with higher pressure springs and hard launches over time. It should help with clutch wear due to less flex and even application (theory though). Honestly I had that exact same comment in the shop (just copy the oem design in billet). The piece I have is just that..a piece. I just wanted to solve the puzzle...but your plan is the smarter path.
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