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Old 09-09-2019, 11:58 AM   #16
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Old 09-09-2019, 12:07 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freudie1 View Post
I vote oil pump issues or torque setting issue with caps.

Who built this?

What are the other power adder modifications?
No mods other than stage one and caps did not come loose, if thats what u were thinking.
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Old 09-09-2019, 05:29 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by knight rod rob View Post
No mods other than stage one and caps did not come loose, if thats what u were thinking.
Rob: I know you do shit right but any chance there was some residual grits left in the engine. Often rod bearings or mains for that matter can spin if grit gets between the bearing and crank. This can move babbit into high spots between the scratches and increase friction. Rod heats up and crush is lost allowing it to rotate with the extra friction. Once they piggy back it's game over even though oil pressure will show near normal at first. Detonation can cause it also as it pounds through the oil film, again increasing friction on the bearing crank contact point. Based on the scoring of the cams, it has me leading toward some form of contamination in the oil that went through. Regardless of what it was it was bad luck for sure. Did the previous replaced rod bearings have much scoring in them?
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Old 09-09-2019, 06:39 PM   #19
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When you put it back together last time was there a chance the rod bearings got mixed up and the wrong color (size) bearings went in? To loose wouldn’t be as bad as to tight.


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Old 09-09-2019, 09:44 PM   #20
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Well I hate to admit it. I did not check the rod bearings the last time. My EXCUSE is since the mains were in pretty good shape some signs of scorring.The rods would be fine. I hate admitting that. Like I said I had put them in about 2yrs ago. I got them in right and the color also. Even though I did not actually measure the bearings. I am very familiar with this kind of rod where it looks like they broke the caps and put them back together. I still think something may have lodged in crank oil journals.Or even worse to many revs. Yes I did mention that debris was the culprit from the last failure. Well I have a crank and rods comming from ebay. Guess I wil order one camshaft and some other small shi* from the stealer ship. Whats the best way to get that rotor off the crank somebody?
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Old 09-10-2019, 07:42 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by knight rod rob View Post
Well I hate to admit it. I did not check the rod bearings the last time. My EXCUSE is since the mains were in pretty good shape some signs of scorring.The rods would be fine. I hate admitting that. Like I said I had put them in about 2yrs ago. I got them in right and the color also. Even though I did not actually measure the bearings. I am very familiar with this kind of rod where it looks like they broke the caps and put them back together. I still think something may have lodged in crank oil journals.Or even worse to many revs. Yes I did mention that debris was the culprit from the last failure. Well I have a crank and rods comming from ebay. Guess I wil order one camshaft and some other small shi* from the stealer ship. Whats the best way to get that rotor off the crank somebody?
Wonder if it all started when the pumps relief valve stuck before you swapped the pump out. This would place the filter into bypass for longer periods then normal, possibly allowing trapped particles to enter the galleys.This bypass can also open at high rpms if the filter is got some miles on it and media somewhat restricted. Scoring and debri could have been responsible for jamming the relief valve in the pump too. All things being right, the rpms shouldn't have hurt it. Glad you are finding replacement parts. While the whole episode has made you puke by now and you may know this stuff, I thought I'd post it for general info for the rest. By the way, Vreeland has special coated bearings for the v rod. Article covers these coatings as well.
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...spun-bearings/
Ron
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Old 09-11-2019, 02:38 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rbabos View Post
Wonder if it all started when the pumps relief valve stuck before you swapped the pump out. This would place the filter into bypass for longer periods then normal, possibly allowing trapped particles to enter the galleys.This bypass can also open at high rpms if the filter is got some miles on it and media somewhat restricted. Scoring and debri could have been responsible for jamming the relief valve in the pump too. All things being right, the rpms shouldn't have hurt it. Glad you are finding replacement parts. While the whole episode has made you puke by now and you may know this stuff, I thought I'd post it for general info for the rest. By the way, Vreeland has special coated bearings for the v rod. Article covers these coatings as well.
https://www.enginebuildermag.com/201...spun-bearings/
Ron
Thanks Ron Good read
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Old 09-11-2019, 08:36 PM   #23
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All I can say is do it the hard way first - check everything especially if metal particles have been known to be released from a transmission output bearing or whatever failed prior. Disassemble , inspect and clean, flush EVERYTHING - There are NO shortcuts to success with engine building, unfortunately. Any remaining failure metal - anywhere - will lead to another failure, its just a matter of time. That sucks Rob, recheck your trans bearing also see if any damage with a 10X Magnifying glass on the roller balls again like we discussed prior - I finally got a good one from H-D - Best of Luck - Hang in There !
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Old 09-12-2019, 09:31 AM   #24
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I might add, use a good engine pre lube. SM calls for oil but that's a ca ca method of doing things. One of the best I've used is this. Simply amazing in friction reduction. There are others as well but try to zero in in products that cover flat tappet camshafts. More zinc is your friend on a new engine start up.
https://www.mercruiserparts.com/801779-cam-lube
Ron
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Old 09-12-2019, 11:35 AM   #25
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Ron yes high Zinc flat tappet oil or I use Motul 3000 20/50 Mineral break -in oil since we have to watch super friction reducers due to possible clutch friction reduction/slipping Also I would think prior to starting a freshly assembled engine fill every thing with oil - cam cavities, oil cooler and with the spark plugs out turn the engine over with the starter to get as much oil to the pump, oil passages, filter, cooler etc. as possible. They make pre-oilers for car engines that may also work to pressure oil thru the system from the (remove the oil filter ) pressure output pipe on the filter adapter then re-install the filter half full of oil - and start asap. Watch oil level so you don't overfill the sump.
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Old 09-12-2019, 01:25 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by streetrodracer View Post
Ron yes high Zinc flat tappet oil or I use Motul 3000 20/50 Mineral break -in oil since we have to watch super friction reducers due to possible clutch friction reduction/slipping Also I would think prior to starting a freshly assembled engine fill every thing with oil - cam cavities, oil cooler and with the spark plugs out turn the engine over with the starter to get as much oil to the pump, oil passages, filter, cooler etc. as possible. They make pre-oilers for car engines that may also work to pressure oil thru the system from the (remove the oil filter ) pressure output pipe on the filter adapter then re-install the filter half full of oil - and start asap. Watch oil level so you don't overfill the sump.
Pre oiling is a good idea for first start.I actually built a pre oiler for my aircraft engine out of a small fire extinguisher bottle. I used it each first start of the day. The engine oil pressure would charge it to system pressure and a ball valve was turned off. A gauge was mounted on the bottle . On the next start, the ball valve opened and you could see the oil psi move and hold briefly in the dash as it charged the system. Once started it again would recharge and ball valve was turned off. Today, would incorporate an electric solenoid to do the task of a manual ball valve. My aircraft was hand start and had no electrics.
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Old 09-12-2019, 02:40 PM   #27
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Yes I am familiar with preasurizing the engine before start up. If u have the means to do this at home. I will just get everything lubed up real good. But I am aways from all that. Still waiting on crank so I can make sure to get the right bearings. Its due here on the 17th. Once I get the rest of parts on order. Then I will begin to pressure wash and blow air through the whole assy. I will build engine first. Then work on trans bearings. So far the tab is $400. Not bad if u triple that from Harley. Thats the rods,crank, head gaskets, which I mistakenly ordered 4, shi*. The heads are not gonna happen. 800 plus each from Harley, they are resuable. This is not aircraft or some customers engine I am working. So I will just have to make informed decisions on what will run and what wont. If I could afford all the things I want that would be different. I been in this long enough to make a go of it. Botton line is the ****i* trans bearing failed in the first place. And I maintain this thing. Its like a marriage, u just keep plugging away.
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Old 09-12-2019, 04:52 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by knight rod rob View Post
Yes I am familiar with preasurizing the engine before start up. If u have the means to do this at home. I will just get everything lubed up real good. But I am aways from all that. Still waiting on crank so I can make sure to get the right bearings. Its due here on the 17th. Once I get the rest of parts on order. Then I will begin to pressure wash and blow air through the whole assy. I will build engine first. Then work on trans bearings. So far the tab is $400. Not bad if u triple that from Harley. Thats the rods,crank, head gaskets, which I mistakenly ordered 4, shi*. The heads are not gonna happen. 800 plus each from Harley, they are resuable. This is not aircraft or some customers engine I am working. So I will just have to make informed decisions on what will run and what wont. If I could afford all the things I want that would be different. I been in this long enough to make a go of it. Botton line is the ****i* trans bearing failed in the first place. And I maintain this thing. Its like a marriage, u just keep plugging away.
Rob: Those cam bores in the head can be reconditioned by a good engine building machine shop , back to new specs. That and replacement stock cams, which several here have gone SE2 or Jones might have a set. Then head area area back to new again, at least in the bearing areas. Just throwing the option out there for heads. For ref only, here's one company that does this but many more exist. Explanation on how it's done is at the bottom of page, if any one cares. 50 years from now, we will all be doing this to save the heads. LOL.
https://www.hthoward.co.uk/engine-ma...cylinder-head/
Ron
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Old 09-15-2019, 12:26 AM   #29
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Some more pics of this engine. Someone mentioned a possible detonation issue, so do the heads show this? They look good to me.I can't see what could have went wrong. Hard to believe that debris got past the main caps and messed up the rods. Especially since the oil is fed from both sides of the crank. The rod bearings are getting oil from both ends. Flushed engine, oil cooler and all other parts. Oil passages are clear and no other bearing surfaces are even scratched. And there are a lot of needle bearings in this thing. I did not see any scratches in old crank, only where bearing had stuck to crank. If u look at the flow diagram the mains get oil first, then rods. I am starting to think maybe it just failed. I mean both bearings failing from what looks like lack of oil. But since rod bearings are two yrs old. Just raises more questions. I am gonna look into different rod bearings also. (Verrlands) Yeah the shoes for the crank chain is also bad. The cam chain shoes are good. I starting to think rpms. Because I would get it up pretty high and let that clutch out at times. I also went to 30 tooth pulley. Just sayin. Could this cause a lugging condition. Could the stage one for the 28tooth be different for the 30. Because I know the bike sounds different. A huskier sound if you will and a bit quiter. Seems like it lurches harder. Because the front end would pull up pretty easy it seems. Whatever. On trans bearings they appear to be splash fed by oil. The oil galley goes through the shaft and feeds the needle bearings on the shaft and the other oil ports in case spray the gears. The trans bearings that are covered on the end where the oil galleys are make sure the oil goes thru the shaft and not the bearing. Thats what I am seeing.
And whats up with the gump around water pump cavity?
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Old 09-15-2019, 09:12 AM   #30
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Some more pics of this engine. Someone mentioned a possible detonation issue, so do the heads show this? They look good to me.I can't see what could have went wrong. Hard to believe that debris got past the main caps and messed up the rods. Especially since the oil is fed from both sides of the crank. The rod bearings are getting oil from both ends. Flushed engine, oil cooler and all other parts. Oil passages are clear and no other bearing surfaces are even scratched. And there are a lot of needle bearings in this thing. I did not see any scratches in old crank, only where bearing had stuck to crank. If u look at the flow diagram the mains get oil first, then rods. I am starting to think maybe it just failed. I mean both bearings failing from what looks like lack of oil. But since rod bearings are two yrs old. Just raises more questions. I am gonna look into different rod bearings also. (Verrlands) Yeah the shoes for the crank chain is also bad. The cam chain shoes are good. I starting to think rpms. Because I would get it up pretty high and let that clutch out at times. I also went to 30 tooth pulley. Just sayin. Could this cause a lugging condition. Could the stage one for the 28tooth be different for the 30. Because I know the bike sounds different. A huskier sound if you will and a bit quiter. Seems like it lurches harder. Because the front end would pull up pretty easy it seems. Whatever. On trans bearings they appear to be splash fed by oil. The oil galley goes through the shaft and feeds the needle bearings on the shaft and the other oil ports in case spray the gears. The trans bearings that are covered on the end where the oil galleys are make sure the oil goes thru the shaft and not the bearing. Thats what I am seeing.
And whats up with the gump around water pump cavity?
Rob: What condition is the bushing for the pump shaft in the case like? Looks like debri came from that area, which is pressure fed and ended up in the space between the case and pump drive. These particles likely ran out with the oil in there on pump removal. Not sure what that circular mark is all about in the bore of the case where the pump seal would sit.
Ron
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