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Old 06-12-2019, 12:56 PM   #1
Dawgun
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Another idle and stall bike!

First off, this is my first post and I have to say how awed I am by all of the knowledge and helpfulness on this forum. I'm hoping I can get my VROD purring too.

Quick intro: Riding bikes for 11 years. Just picked up a lightly used 2005 VRSCB and am not afraid to work on it. I don't have a ton of experience but have worked on my cars and bikes in the past with good results.

My issue:
When I start the bike cold: it idles normally for about 30 seconds
After that: the idle starts dropping and jumping. It gets to the point where the needle drops to 900 and jumps to 1600 and keeps bouncing like that until the bike eventually stalls. It won't stall if I hold some throttle on it.
The bike also stalls while in motion if I keep the clutch held in and don't give it any throttle. If I try to drive at rpms under 2000, the bike lurches. Some sputtering on deceleration (stock pipes). Good power when accelerating.

Here's a video of the tach with bike in neutral (you have to replace the [dot]s with dots):
www[dot]dropbox[dot]com/s/2zlynx3uffxp203/IMG_5907.MOV?dl=0

What I've tried so far:
Checked error codes: none
Checked battery: 12.51 volts with ignition off.
Checked battery grounding strap (only one strap on this model, right?): firmly attached.
Inspected IAC port: audible click when kill switch turned to RUN; pintle peeks out and goes back in when kill switch turned to OFF.
Sprayed penetrant/lube into IAC port and cycled the IAC. No improvement.
Tightened throttle body clamps: no improvement
Found a tear in rear breather hose, crazy glued it closed: no improvement -- and ordered a new hose just in case it has more tears I can't see.

What are my next steps?

I really love the bike when it's moving; but I live in a city and spend a lot of time at low speeds and want to love it all the time, ya' know?

Sam
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2005 VRSCB stock pipes
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Old 06-14-2019, 11:05 AM   #2
rbabos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dawgun View Post
First off, this is my first post and I have to say how awed I am by all of the knowledge and helpfulness on this forum. I'm hoping I can get my VROD purring too.

Quick intro: Riding bikes for 11 years. Just picked up a lightly used 2005 VRSCB and am not afraid to work on it. I don't have a ton of experience but have worked on my cars and bikes in the past with good results.

My issue:
When I start the bike cold: it idles normally for about 30 seconds
After that: the idle starts dropping and jumping. It gets to the point where the needle drops to 900 and jumps to 1600 and keeps bouncing like that until the bike eventually stalls. It won't stall if I hold some throttle on it.
The bike also stalls while in motion if I keep the clutch held in and don't give it any throttle. If I try to drive at rpms under 2000, the bike lurches. Some sputtering on deceleration (stock pipes). Good power when accelerating.

Here's a video of the tach with bike in neutral (you have to replace the [dot]s with dots):
www[dot]dropbox[dot]com/s/2zlynx3uffxp203/IMG_5907.MOV?dl=0

What I've tried so far:
Checked error codes: none
Checked battery: 12.51 volts with ignition off.
Checked battery grounding strap (only one strap on this model, right?): firmly attached.
Inspected IAC port: audible click when kill switch turned to RUN; pintle peeks out and goes back in when kill switch turned to OFF.
Sprayed penetrant/lube into IAC port and cycled the IAC. No improvement.
Tightened throttle body clamps: no improvement
Found a tear in rear breather hose, crazy glued it closed: no improvement -- and ordered a new hose just in case it has more tears I can't see.

What are my next steps?

I really love the bike when it's moving; but I live in a city and spend a lot of time at low speeds and want to love it all the time, ya' know?

Sam
Running ok and idle for 30 seconds , it's on the warmup table and mixture is richer. Keep this trait in mind for diagnosing further. After that the mixture leans back to normal. Sounds like something is causing it to lean too much after the warmup table and cause the idle hunting you have and this will transfer into the lower rpms you mentioned also. Even hot, the key off and key on restart, there is a warmup enrichment. Does it idle ok when hot for about 10-20 seconds then misbehave again? Could be intake leak below the throttle bodies or a poor injector. Hard to pinpoint without some form of collected data. Data logging can pinpoint it real fast. Check for any air leaks that might allow air in beyond what the IAC or throttle bodies will add and try some injector cleaner first. This hunting is almost always afr related in some form. There will be no connection to the breather hoses for this problem.
Ron
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Old 06-14-2019, 01:40 PM   #3
darendt
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Been chasing this for awhile now. Changed plugs, IAC motor, checked throttle position sensor voltage, stretched boot springs, checked all gaskets and injection orings, checked fuel pump for leaks. Have energy Coils on the way.

It did seam to work when I would clear adaptive settings before starting but that no longer works either every time. I loaded stock tune back and it still does it. Mine doesn't stall at all except after first 10-20 seconds after starting. Irritating.
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Old 06-15-2019, 07:55 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darendt View Post
Been chasing this for awhile now. Changed plugs, IAC motor, checked throttle position sensor voltage, stretched boot springs, checked all gaskets and injection orings, checked fuel pump for leaks. Have energy Coils on the way.

It did seam to work when I would clear adaptive settings before starting but that no longer works either every time. I loaded stock tune back and it still does it. Mine doesn't stall at all except after first 10-20 seconds after starting. Irritating.
Since you have TT, you can log the cold start. Notice, it will stall when the 02 sensors come on line. Note the AFR at that point. It will most likely be crazy rich. Choose a leaner AFR then what the TT cal is for idle and autotune the idle ve's for the leaner AFR and the problem should go away. 14.3-14.5 is what I'd try. Note the log and see what kpa areas it idles at for the change.
Ron
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Old 06-15-2019, 11:05 AM   #5
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And there are 3 Ground straps on a VRSC, not just one. One on each cylinder head and one on the rear of engine from the frame to oil pan.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:09 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rbabos View Post
Since you have TT, you can log the cold start. Notice, it will stall when the 02 sensors come on line. Note the AFR at that point. It will most likely be crazy rich. Choose a leaner AFR then what the TT cal is for idle and autotune the idle ve's for the leaner AFR and the problem should go away. 14.3-14.5 is what I'd try. Note the log and see what kpa areas it idles at for the change.
Ron
I will give that a try. Thank you.
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Akrapovic 2-1
Amsoil Air/Oil filter
Topless/Bottomless
Power Vision with Target Tune
Ceramic wheel bearings
Poly Cush Drive
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:07 PM   #7
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I will give that a try. Thank you.
Cover both the 1200-1500 areas, not just the 1200
Ron
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Old 06-15-2019, 04:09 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by darendt View Post
I will give that a try. Thank you.
Cover both the 1200-1500 areas, not just the 1200. Make sure the kpa area has the same afr 5 above and 5 below of nominal idle kpa.
Ron
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:21 PM   #9
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Originally Posted by JJrod View Post
And there are 3 Ground straps on a VRSC, not just one. One on each cylinder head and one on the rear of engine from the frane to oil pan.
Oh, I totally misunderstood what they are. I was looking at the negative battery cable.

Can you share photos or point me to pages of the service manual?

I can't find them!
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2005 VRSCB stock pipes
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:31 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by rbabos View Post
Check for any air leaks that might allow air in beyond what the IAC or throttle bodies will add and try some injector cleaner first. This hunting is almost always afr related in some form. There will be no connection to the breather hoses for this problem.
Ron
You're right about the breather hose. I just swapped in a new one and no improvement. (tip: pliers are the only easy way to pinch that hose collar!)

The easiest next step for me is injector cleaning. From a FB thread, Larry Abe recommended Techron injector cleaner, Sea Foam, and Marvel Mystery Oil. I picked up all three.

Since my tank is full, I'm running the Sea Foam first. When I'm almost empty, I'll add the injector cleaner for two half-tanks of gas, and then try the Mystery Oil after that.

Where else should I look for vacuum leaks besides the throttle body boots?

I'll report back with the results.
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2005 VRSCB stock pipes
Cobra PowrPro Black Tuner
2-up seat
Harley Day Bag
Woohoo it's fun!
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Old 06-17-2019, 01:43 PM   #11
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Energy coils will be here today, Gonna see what those do then play with fuel in areas suggested.

On a side note, I found a very dirty fuel filter that resides after the pump in the tank. I had HD order it for 40 bucks. Will also see if that has anything to do with it.
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Akrapovic 2-1
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Topless/Bottomless
Power Vision with Target Tune
Ceramic wheel bearings
Poly Cush Drive
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Old 06-18-2019, 09:26 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by darendt View Post
Energy coils will be here today, Gonna see what those do then play with fuel in areas suggested.

On a side note, I found a very dirty fuel filter that resides after the pump in the tank. I had HD order it for 40 bucks. Will also see if that has anything to do with it.
The website mentions you have to tune out the knock sensing when using those coils, is that required?
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:00 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by JJrod View Post
And there are 3 Ground straps on a VRSC, not just one. One on each cylinder head and one on the rear of engine from the frane to oil pan.
Okay, I found the ground straps - aaand... they all look ok.

I'm thinking of plunking the cash down for a tuner module. If there's any chance that the exhaust was tapered with, the tuner should correct the issue. Also, so many owners like their bikes more with the tuner, it can't hurt, right?

After reading a hundred or so posts, it looks to me like the Cobra PowrPro Black will do the trick.

If it doesn't fix the problem, then I'll start getting fancier with my troubleshooting.
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2005 VRSCB stock pipes
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Harley Day Bag
Woohoo it's fun!
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Old 06-23-2019, 08:08 PM   #14
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I have been following your post and I had a gut feel the ECM may be the problem. If so the tuner won't help.
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Old 06-24-2019, 12:35 PM   #15
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I have been following your post and I had a gut feel the ECM may be the problem. If so the tuner won't help.
Tuner is on it's way. If it doesn't help, I'll be asking about the steps in troubleshooting the ECM?
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