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Please help me identify this part

4K views 46 replies 10 participants last post by  coastrider 
#1 ·
This part was on my magnetic oil plug when I changed the oil in my 2003 VROD. I think it might have broken off the transmission. Does anyone recognize it? I need to find the part number. It has a "6" or "9" stamped on the end.
 

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#2 ·
Debris large enough to have part numbers ?!!

First guess secondary cam chain tensioner shim. Second guess cam bucket shim, but two of those side by side are needed to be the same diameter as a penny. I don't see anything in the gearbox that looks like that but other guys here on the site may know more than me - looks like the wear around the outside indicates a spring or the end of a shaft that is hollow rubbing it, hence my first choice. Funny thing is guys joke about finding debris large enough to have part numbers on it on their magnetic plugs, but you actually did ! :notworth: Not funny thing is it got beat up getting to the magnetic plug so wonder what if anything else got bent, damaged, etc. Any other metal on the magnetic plug ? :blahblah: :D
 
#3 ·
First guess secondary cam chain tensioner shim. Second guess cam bucket shim, but two of those side by side are needed to be the same diameter as a penny. I don't see anything in the gearbox that looks like that but other guys here on the site may know more than me - looks like the wear around the outside indicates a spring or the end of a shaft that is hollow rubbing it, hence my first choice. Funny thing is guys joke about finding debris large enough to have part numbers on it on their magnetic plugs, but you actually did ! :notworth: Not funny thing is it got beat up getting to the magnetic plug so wonder what if anything else got bent, damaged, etc. Any other metal on the magnetic plug ? :blahblah: :D
There wasn't anything else on the magnetic plug but this. The Harley parts counter looked at their box of shims to see if it matched any and it did not. Thanks for you input.
 
#4 ·
Probably of no help, but I have seen this part in a pic before, either on this site or one of the Facebook groups. Came out on the drain plug the same. Exactly the same with a number stamped. Is definitely not a valve shim because they are much harder material than that appears to be and they are not stamped.
 
#6 ·
F.Y.I. the secondary tensioner shim P/N is 40095-01K and I know RustyG among many others here on the site has experience with setting that secondary cam chains tension with the tool P/N HD-45334 and adding shims to get rid of the start-up rattle. What doesn't make sense is how someone could drop that shim inside the engine as its on the outside cap end of the tensioner, so it may be something else ? Someone here will know. If you still have the oil filter I would open it up ( a sharp chisel around the base will do it if you don't have a cutter, and wear thick gloves ) and inspect for any small non metallic debris like aluminum. Hopefully you lucked out. Recheck at next oil change, shorter interval though. :blahblah: :D
 
#13 ·
Finally, the missing 6th Gear !

Man, that's a small 6th gear, with no teeth ! Probably explains why when I shift into it there ain't no 6th gear there and I 'm just stuck with 5th, same RRM. :) So I don't see any shims like that in the oil pump and like Ron says the secondary cam chain shim is not numbered, just machine marks, which makes sense since you add the SAME shim once or twice to adjust it. Cam bucket tappet shims are numbered, but like 2.60 (M.M.) not 6 or 9 plus they are 1/2 the size of a penny. To the great and all knowing OZ of all V Rods out there - we await your infinite wisdom ! Pick up the white courtesy phone please ! Call Scott Fitzgerald, Fitzgerald Motorsports Greenville OH or Ray Vreeland, Vreeland H-D Bloomsburg PA or maybe Stever975 the moderator here can chime in with knowledge - Hey it's a Monday give it a few days - other guys know but they are out riding since it's not snowing. :blahblah: :D
 
#15 ·
Secondary tensioner shims

Here is a couple of secondary cam tensioner shims. No numbers on them.
 

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#16 ·
Hey RustyG whats the diameter of that shim ? It looks close to what he's got there but yours is machined and sharp edged, looks hardened. His looks softer, rounded edges, like something off a cheap tool. Who Knows ? I would inspect the old filter, if good fly it and watch it - recheck the filter in a hundred miles or so. That's what I like about the K&P Engineering filter - got a possible issue ? Pull the filter, pop it apart, inspect for debris, check its rare earth magnet, clean & re-install. Easy Breasy - no chisel with gloves, big mess or high $ filter cutter or trip for a new disposable filter required. I'm gonna check those dimple magnets SwampBoogieDoug - :blahblah: :D
 
#23 ·
Can't help with the dimensions of that shim. I was at a H-D dealer and had them pull one from parts and I photographed it. Wasn't as large as what was presented in post #1. It was smooth on both sides and did not have any writing on either side.
 
#18 ·
Elgavilan thanks now we are getting somewhere ! By blow out are you saying there is oil pressure behind this plug ? Why the circular wear evidence on it - think it was spinning in place and whatever holds it in like a circlip or swaged over the edge of it metal fell out or wore out ? It does look like it has cam chain marks ( side by side ) on it, but maybe something else made those marks - you think it could fall into the cam chain if it blew out ? Thx.
 
#25 ·
Yes, oil pressure pushes them out, they are just a press fit in the tensioner. When they come out they may have contact with the chain and other moving parts on their way to the sump. If you do a search on this site for "cam chain tensioner" there are quite a few threads that come up, some with pics of the plug.

Mike
 
#19 ·
Thanks to everyone who commented. Unfortunately, I no longer have the oil filter to dissect.

If you were me, what course of action would you take at this point?
1. Keep riding it and hope all hell doesn't break loose in the transmission.
2. Park it and make it a project bike, slowing tearing into the tranny/engine to investigate.
3. ???????
 
#22 ·
The plug in question is in the area of the red circle. Stock, these are a press in plugs but I have no picture of them. This case the guy must have blown one out and converted it to a threaded pipe plug. I might add, if you have an oil pressure gauge, it would show a drop from normal if this plug blows out.
Ron
 

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#26 ·
Revo weak spot ?!

Wow that's a crappy design Elgavilan - one of the few in the Revo engine. Glad I know it now so I'll tap and plug it on my new engine. Looking at my 1250 cases on the stand in the garage there are three ways something like that plug could get out of that sidecase area, one below & behind the tensioner, one higher into the gearbox area and one lower fwd. to the fwd. rod/crankshaft area. I doubt it made it to the higher or fwd. gearbox or crank passage because if that plug went into the gears or crank jeremy would know as it it would probably be locked up or missing a gear shift. Most likely it bounced around the chain and sprockets, fell down and out the larger aft passage to the oil sump. All this begs the question - how much engine oil pressure/flow and cam chain tension control is lost with the plug popped out ? For how many miles ? I guess Jeremy could do a very detailed inspection of chains, sprockets looking for bent links, kinks etc. ( with a small mirror & bright flashlight in a dark garage you could even inspect the crank and gearbox ) fix any problems, fit the tensioner with a threaded plug, run the engine for 100 miles or so, inspect the oil filter for debris and if none ride it and watch it. I wouldn't pull it all apart unless damage warrants it. What you guys think ? :blahblah: :D
 
#27 ·
Wow that's a crappy design Elgavilan - one of the few in the Revo engine. Glad I know it now so I'll tap and plug it on my new engine. Looking at my 1250 cases on the stand in the garage there are three ways something like that plug could get out of that sidecase area, one below & behind the tensioner, one higher into the gearbox area and one lower fwd. to the fwd. rod/crankshaft area. I doubt it made it to the higher or fwd. gearbox or crank passage because if that plug went into the gears or crank jeremy would know as it it would probably be locked up or missing a gear shift. Most likely it bounced around the chain and sprockets, fell down and out the larger aft passage to the oil sump. All this begs the question - how much engine oil pressure/flow and cam chain tension control is lost with the plug popped out ? For how many miles ? I guess Jeremy could do a very detailed inspection of chains, sprockets looking for bent links, kinks etc. ( with a small mirror & bright flashlight in a dark garage you could even inspect the crank and gearbox ) fix any problems, fit the tensioner with a threaded plug, run the engine for 100 miles or so, inspect the oil filter for debris and if none ride it and watch it. I wouldn't pull it all apart unless damage warrants it. What you guys think ? :blahblah: :D
I doubt very many of these plugs have popped out out of the thousands upon thousands built and the design in pretty much an industry standard method for port blocking after the machining process. The stupid TwinCams have ball bearings pressed into the cam plate to block the ports. So have you confirmend it's actually one of those plugs? I see no reason for it to have a #6 on it for a simple plug.
Ron
 
#29 ·
I checked the holes in the baffle plate/gasket for the oil pan there are 5 fwd and 5 aft drain back holes @ .875 diameter. That penny is .750 and the plug in question is smaller than that so it would eventually get to the sump and magnetic plug from the sidecase. Jeremy your photo and the dimple look similar to the plug you found, so if your plug is there could it be that the tensioner was replaced before and they did not fetch the plug out of the engine ? What year and how many miles on this bike ? Have you checked with H-D they keep pretty good maintenance records by VIN# I believe. If you turn over the engine to inspect the cam chains and gears etc. be sure to turn it in the correct direction ONLY, don't turn it backwards - if you miss something just go another turn. Get a small adjustable mirror on a stick at an auto parts store, and a small diameter mag light type flashlight. Searching " cam chain tensioner " here is great idea. Maybe the number indicates a particular plug size for the press fit ? Or an unrelated part off a tool ? Dimple does look the same. :blahblah: :D
 
#35 ·
Vin

I checked the holes in the baffle plate/gasket for the oil pan there are 5 fwd and 5 aft drain back holes @ .875 diameter. That penny is .750 and the plug in question is smaller than that so it would eventually get to the sump and magnetic plug from the sidecase. Jeremy your photo and the dimple look similar to the plug you found, so if your plug is there could it be that the tensioner was replaced before and they did not fetch the plug out of the engine ? What year and how many miles on this bike ? Have you checked with H-D they keep pretty good maintenance records by VIN# I believe. If you turn over the engine to inspect the cam chains and gears etc. be sure to turn it in the correct direction ONLY, don't turn it backwards - if you miss something just go another turn. Get a small adjustable mirror on a stick at an auto parts store, and a small diameter mag light type flashlight. Searching " cam chain tensioner " here is great idea. Maybe the number indicates a particular plug size
for the press fit ? Or an unrelated part off a tool ? Dimple does look the same. :blahblah: :D
I'll take my VIN by the local Harley tomorrow and see if they can pull up service records. Good idea.
 
#31 ·
Searching " cam chain tensioner " here really informs ! There is discussion there about the plug from a needle bearing but it's the counter balancer bearing and it was said to be too large. I just checked my new in the sealed bag c/b bearings and the installed bearings in my 1250 cases and there are no plugs. The needle bearings on the gearbox shafts are open ended also. Stever 975 that photo looks just like it, with the #'s missing or worn off. If they source that plug from a needle bearing it may be delivered with no #'s as they I.D. the bearing it was removed from. The stamped # 6 or 9 is on the backside, maybe another way of rudimentary I.D. ? Ron I'm sure you've seen all the ball bearings blocking ports in the Revo - I was looking at those with a little concern now, thanks. :banghead: :blahblah: :D
 
#32 ·
...
...Stever 975 that photo looks just like it, with the #'s missing or worn off. If they source that plug from a needle bearing it may be delivered with no #'s as they I.D. the bearing it was removed from. The stamped # 6 or 9 is on the backside, maybe another way of rudimentary I.D. ?...
...
The pictures shown are tensioner plugs with needle bearing part numbers. Here's another picture from Karzza showing a tensioner with the plug peened in place:

The item shown in Post #1 is too thin to be a needle bearing case.
 
#33 ·
Yes Stever975 that's a good peening fix from Karzza for one that's not too loose. If it's been spinning around and really loose in the bore I think it would be best to pull it, 1/8 pipe thread tap it and install a plug with locktite like others here did. Upon examination with a magnifying glass Jeremys photos plug (installed on the tensioner) does look like it has #'s like Karzza's, and yes the #1 post photo does look too thin - maybe the better needle bearing case is more of a cup than possibly an early model flat plug ? My only other observation is #1 post plug photo looks like it was spinning in a bore and wore the face shiny - wherever it was installed, maybe there were some #'s there before ?
 
#36 ·
We found out what it is!!!!!!!

The good men at the local Harley parts counter figured out what the mysterious piece with a 6 on it is. Now what to do about it.

It came off the clutch shell. It looks to be from one of the three bolts that hold the ring gear onto the clutch. I'm attaching a screen grab from the parts computer.

The bolt it shaft/bolt it came off of is not sold by HD individually just as part of the clutch ($489). Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might make the repair without replacing the entire clutch?

Also, do you feel it may have passed through and damaged anything on the way to the sump/oil pan?

Thank you to everyone who is helping work on this.
 

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#37 ·
The good men at the local Harley parts counter figured out what the mysterious piece with a 6 on it is. Now what to do about it.

It came off the clutch shell. It looks to be from one of the three bolts that hold the ring gear onto the clutch. I'm attaching a screen grab from the parts computer.

The bolt it shaft/bolt it came off of is not sold by HD individually just as part of the clutch ($489). Does anyone have any suggestions on how I might make the repair without replacing the entire clutch?

Also, do you feel it may have passed through and damaged anything on the way to the sump/oil pan?

Thank you to everyone who is helping work on this.
If you can get the whole bolt out, as a reference a machine shop can duplicate it. Stop into a couple of small custom Ma and Pa outfits for the best deal and a gumpy old bastard with a lifetime of experience. A place like I use to work. Even stamp in the #6 if you want. LOL
Let the person know the application and they can grab bar off the shelf and go to town with it.
As for any other damage, I doubt there will be much to be worried about especially if there's noting obvious. Might have just nicked the edge of the crank and clutch sprockets or the balancer on the way by on it's travel to the sump ,where it just basically moves around effecting nothing. If it got right in the middle of the gears, serious carnage would have happened.
Ron
 
#39 ·
Success !! We knew it was close.

Allright ! Excellent Jeremy ! Give that parts guy the Highly Esteemed and sought after " Top Friend of the V Rodders Award " !! I was hoping maybe the bike records would dredge something up but hey that's amazing a H-D dealer and a parts guy actually figured it out ! ( Usually when they see us V Rodders pull up they all run and hide - they don't know nothing, don't want to know nothing about the bike or that damn Porschie / German Engine thingy with no pushrods.) :banghead: Anyway, looks like it was loose for some time evidenced in the shiny circle around the "dimple". If I were you, I would buy another clutch hub, hopefully off some bike with unabused parts - or new - because the other two remaining bolts/rivets/fasteners on yours may be the next to fail. E Bay can be your friend, if you are careful. Guys here may have a stock clutch hub to sell post it on Classified wanted. Also I would do the flashlight and mirror inspection of all affected equipment on the clutch side ( and since it's off the cam chain side too ). Get a maintenance and parts manual, you will be smarter than most - you can get the hub off with an impact but JIMS tools has a hub holding tool to re-torque it, or two 1/2 inch ratchets or the dealer. Good time to install a slipper clutch pack ( $ 250 ) if it's an older bike it will make it shift a lot better. Good Luck, let us know ! :blahblah: :D
 
#40 ·
Now that we know where it came from, one of us that's had or has the clutch out ( my slipper clutch is on the workbench but the basket is in the engine ) should know if that's a bolt or a rivet. I'm thinking it's a steel rivet as there is no room for a nut on the other end of it inside the basket ? If so they possibly could all be replaced with new but maybe difficult to find and would require a big press to set the rivet. I've got aircraft rivet guns but even a 3x would not buck a 1/4 inch or so steel rivet without work hardening it. Buy another basket probably best. I'll be checking my clutch rivets for sure now, Thanks JL !
 
#41 ·
Rivet for sure. Common practice on bike clutches with cush hubs and automotive clutch plates with cush hubs. If it was going to be bolted it would be the other way around with the bolt going into the steel gear, not the thin aluminium basket. Also a little difficult to tighten a bolt with a round head unless it is a shear bolt like a steering lock has, which they clearly aren't.
 
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