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Old 01-21-2012, 08:51 AM   #1
Karzza
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1487cc Turbo 2nd Edition

I decided to open a new topic to entertainment you with my 2nd edition engine build and
raise some useful discussion up about a Revolution pushed to it's limit in street use.
My target is 250rwhp@7500rpm 185 ft-lbs@5000rpm, but especially I'm trying to improve reliability, which has been the problem. I'm fustrated to open the engine every 3000km.

So, here we go....

CP Pistons are the old ones, driven 6000km. There are couple of scratches in a skirt because of flying bearing pieces in the engine. They are measured and polished to prevent carbon building to the top. Compression ratio is a mandatory in my case.

Has somebody seen somewhere forged pistons for 4.25" (12:1, 1/4" stroker offset pin)?

New piston rings and at this time end plays are adjusted smaller than previously.

1st 0.60mm
2nd 0.70mm
oil ring 0.35mm

Old K1 rods, new bolts. There are marks of flattened and spread pin bushings under pressure. Pin clearances are still okay, but too narrow or soft pin bushings will be a problem in the future. Better pushing material will be needed some day.





Wiseco cylinder liners are used ones. They are measured and re-honed to RA12 recarding CP's instruction for Ductile moly rings.






Falicon 3/8" stroker full circle crank. As I know there are two types of Falicon full circle ctranks in the market.
The other one is with an open rod pin and an other one with blugged rod pin, like mine. How are oil drillings when the rod pin is nod blugged. Does somebody know what is a backround for changes?
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300rwhp, E85 fuel
Falicon +3/8" full circle, K1, ceramic CP 4.25" pistons
Billet oil-pan, pinned cases and ceramic bearings, 12mm head and main studs
Jones cams, SuperAlloy valves, titan retainers, springs
Turbo Garret GT2560R, water cooled
16 Psi Forge waste gate and BOV, Valeo i-cooler
Black Ops 172lb/hr injectors, Wabro 255lph pump
Porsche tbo 5bar fuel regulator
Daytona VRFIgen3 ECM, KMS 3bar MAP.
11 plates carbon fibre lock-up, billet basket
Str cut 2nd,
K&M plenum and -brace
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:12 AM   #2
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good luck!
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:13 AM   #3
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What else are you changing to try and help with the longevity issues?
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Old 01-21-2012, 09:44 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calereeves View Post
What else are you changing to try and help with the longevity issues?
"Engine case walking" has been the biggest problem and some improvements have been made to stabilize the cases. It has been a very challenging machining action because of several reasons. We did the machining three times with my friends in a fine machining shop before we were satisfied.




I will return to to the point when the cases are finished.
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300rwhp, E85 fuel
Falicon +3/8" full circle, K1, ceramic CP 4.25" pistons
Billet oil-pan, pinned cases and ceramic bearings, 12mm head and main studs
Jones cams, SuperAlloy valves, titan retainers, springs
Turbo Garret GT2560R, water cooled
16 Psi Forge waste gate and BOV, Valeo i-cooler
Black Ops 172lb/hr injectors, Wabro 255lph pump
Porsche tbo 5bar fuel regulator
Daytona VRFIgen3 ECM, KMS 3bar MAP.
11 plates carbon fibre lock-up, billet basket
Str cut 2nd,
K&M plenum and -brace
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Old 01-21-2012, 11:26 AM   #5
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Old 01-21-2012, 12:59 PM   #6
Karzza
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There has been shy out-blow in head gaskets, when all has been pushed out.
Desided to install ARP 12mm head studs finally.
The Friends in the fine machining shop made a tool to drill and steer threads for the studs.

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300rwhp, E85 fuel
Falicon +3/8" full circle, K1, ceramic CP 4.25" pistons
Billet oil-pan, pinned cases and ceramic bearings, 12mm head and main studs
Jones cams, SuperAlloy valves, titan retainers, springs
Turbo Garret GT2560R, water cooled
16 Psi Forge waste gate and BOV, Valeo i-cooler
Black Ops 172lb/hr injectors, Wabro 255lph pump
Porsche tbo 5bar fuel regulator
Daytona VRFIgen3 ECM, KMS 3bar MAP.
11 plates carbon fibre lock-up, billet basket
Str cut 2nd,
K&M plenum and -brace
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Old 01-21-2012, 03:09 PM   #7
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Karzza What are you torquing the heads down to ? R&B Cycles here did the heads for the Indian line before they went out of business. He said they used a film ( called Fuji Film but not photographic kind) that showed where the clamping stress was at different torque amounts. To thier surprise, most even torque was at something like 28 ft/ pounds, but the nuts would work loose from the studs. The higher the installed torque, the greater the distortion, which transferred into the heads & barrels. They finally settled on about 36 ft pounds, which was where the nuts stayed in place. We had that conversation because I was running an Aerocharger on a Buell at the time. They said to increase the head thru bolt torque to something like 48 ft/ lbs in an effort to keep the heads clamped at boost (8 lbs). I had o-ringed heads with copper gaskets. I ended up ripping the stud out of the cases...tried Timeserts with same results. Red also started running a couple ft/pounds less on his nitro motors after that too, if I remember correctly.
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Old 01-22-2012, 05:26 PM   #8
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that's a lot of ringgap
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Old 01-22-2012, 07:53 PM   #9
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.023 -.024 end gap on the top ring on a turbo motor seems a little tight to me... i would want less on a normally asperated motor but i would be afraid of the butting the ends on a turbo motor... we ran that much ring end gap on a small 930cc 4 cyl kawasaki motor.. we burned up more than a couple pistons trying to run less... never had any trouble with the larger gap..the static leak test was a little higher than a normally aspirated motor of that size but when running the ring seal was excellent without a blowby problem, and never burned another piston when we went to the bigger gap.. very interesting project keep us informed on the progress..
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:01 PM   #10
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i know that before he passed tim doherty was working on billet clutch and stator covers that would help keep the cases from flexing..
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Old 01-22-2012, 08:12 PM   #11
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we run polydyn coatings on our pistons, the thermal barrier on the tops don`t seem to let carbon build up..the dryfilm coating on the skirts keep the skirts from showing excess wear...i know that those coatings do work ... if you go up to polydyn they have pallets of nextel cup pistons waiting to be coated ...i have a friend that has been setting records with big chevy motors at boneville since the 60`s and he has used those coatings for many years on a lot of motors... they allow a motor to live when an uncoated piston would have failed...
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Old 01-23-2012, 05:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jan-Dirk View Post
that's a lot of ringgap
The latest Ring Cap inctruction from CP Pistons


Stock 1130cc ring gaps:
1st 0.35....0.55mm, replace 0.70mm
2nd 0.40....0.60mm, replace 0.75mm
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300rwhp, E85 fuel
Falicon +3/8" full circle, K1, ceramic CP 4.25" pistons
Billet oil-pan, pinned cases and ceramic bearings, 12mm head and main studs
Jones cams, SuperAlloy valves, titan retainers, springs
Turbo Garret GT2560R, water cooled
16 Psi Forge waste gate and BOV, Valeo i-cooler
Black Ops 172lb/hr injectors, Wabro 255lph pump
Porsche tbo 5bar fuel regulator
Daytona VRFIgen3 ECM, KMS 3bar MAP.
11 plates carbon fibre lock-up, billet basket
Str cut 2nd,
K&M plenum and -brace
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Old 01-23-2012, 06:42 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Karzza View Post
The latest Ring Cap inctruction from CP Pistons


Stock 1130cc ring gaps:
1st 0.35....0.55mm, replace 0.70mm
2nd 0.40....0.60mm, replace 0.75mm
as i posted earlier we ran .022 on a 930cc kz motor that is .0087 gap per inch... it needed that much ring gap to run up to 30lbs boost.. any less and it would burn up pistons.. we had been setting the gaps to .016 to the piston mfg recomendation... after burning several piston we tried another brand (je) and talked to one of their tech guys... he said .016 was fine if we didn`t minding burning up pistons.. he then recomended for his pistons .022 to .023 and we never had another burned piston..that was around 1982...
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Old 01-24-2012, 06:53 AM   #14
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Old 01-27-2012, 10:52 AM   #15
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I will change a final drive to improve reliability and decrease rpms.
The belt drive is 30/72=2.40 and
a chain drive will be 21/48=2.29
At the same time top/ quartermile final speed will increase 231 km/h -> 24X km/h.

EK Chain is 26mm wide, lets see what kind of problems will appear. Regarding my calculations, there should be 1mm between a 240 tire and the chain.

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300rwhp, E85 fuel
Falicon +3/8" full circle, K1, ceramic CP 4.25" pistons
Billet oil-pan, pinned cases and ceramic bearings, 12mm head and main studs
Jones cams, SuperAlloy valves, titan retainers, springs
Turbo Garret GT2560R, water cooled
16 Psi Forge waste gate and BOV, Valeo i-cooler
Black Ops 172lb/hr injectors, Wabro 255lph pump
Porsche tbo 5bar fuel regulator
Daytona VRFIgen3 ECM, KMS 3bar MAP.
11 plates carbon fibre lock-up, billet basket
Str cut 2nd,
K&M plenum and -brace
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