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Old 01-18-2010, 04:33 PM   #1
Dr Dave
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Exclamation Help! Cam Timing is Off!

I don't know how I did it, but my cam timing is off. I just did a valve lash adjustment and everything was going perfectly until I checked the cam timing. I don't even know why I checked it because I am truly confident that I did everything exactly by the book. I never rotated the engine with either tensioner out.

It isn't even like only one cam is off, both cams are off (retarded) in the rear cylinder.

Anyone who has done this check, please verify my findings. These following two pics were taken with the Crankshaft Alignment Pin (size P drill) in place.

Front Cylinder Timing Marks:


Rear Cylinder Timing Marks:



As you can see in the lower picture, the rear cylinder cams both need to rotate CCW for the marks to align. How did this happen? Is there any way that there is so much slack in the cam chain that it skipped a tooth with the tensioner removed?
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:00 PM   #2
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Here was my cam timing, before I started the 2007/2008 BB rehab project, you may want to check the tripple sprocket to base line where that is too:
http://www.1130cc.com/gallery/files/...6_original.jpg

Front Sprocket timing:
http://www.1130cc.com/gallery/files/...t_original.jpg

Rear Sprocket timing:
http://www.1130cc.com/gallery/files/...r_original.jpg
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:05 PM   #3
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Did you need to pull the rear cams to change shims??

It's tricky pulling & returning the cams & keeping the orientation correct.

I think the only way this could have happened is that the engine was rolled backward at the crank or while in gear by the rear wheel.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:34 PM   #4
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Have you rolled the engine any? You may need to keep rolling it to get all the dots and links to line up. It's something like 60 turns. It can be deceptive.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:34 PM   #5
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Thanks Taxman

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxmanHog View Post
Did you need to pull the rear cams to change shims??
Yes, I lifted the cams. One at at time, one tappet removed at at time. The chain remained in contact with the cam sprocket at all times- each time that I moved a cam. The magic marker alignment marks that I put on each cam sprocket and the adjacent chain were still aligned when I replaced the cams and tightened the bearing caps. It either slipped on the drive sprocket or was installed like this from the factory (I didn't verify cam timing before the lash adjustment).

Quote:
Originally Posted by TaxmanHog View Post
I think the only way this could have happened is that the engine was rolled backward at the crank or while in gear by the rear wheel.
The rear wheel was chocked up on blocks and the belt loosened before I could even get the cam covers off of the engine. The bike was in neutral.

I just removed the bearing caps from the rear intake cam and slipped the chain one tooth on both rear cams. After replacing the caps and tensioner, all cams lined up correctly. I rotated the engine twice and pinned it and everything now looks good. I'm going to assume that the chain somehow slipped a tooth on the drive gear while I was moving one of the cams earlier.

Certainly the factory could not have put it together this way. That's silly. A 15 degree valve timing error on one cylinder (360/24) wouldn't fly. Would it? I will probably be able to tell if there is a difference in power when I get it all back together. Maybe this thing's faster than I knew?


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Old 01-18-2010, 05:37 PM   #6
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Its for sure off. Don't feel bad, its easy to do. The important thing is you caught it.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:40 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Will View Post
Have you rolled the engine any? You may need to keep rolling it to get all the dots and links to line up. It's something like 60 turns. It can be deceptive.
I know what you're saying, but the book says that the links don't need to be lined up like the picture. Here's a quote from the manual; "Note: Even though the timing is correct, the copper links may not appear in the positions illustrated. The copper links are used only in the installation of cam chains."

God forbid if I had to get the links lined up too. I would probably miss that particular rotation and have to do it all over again (can't roll clockwise).

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Old 01-18-2010, 05:48 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Dave View Post

I know what you're saying, but the book says that the links don't need to be lined up like the picture. Here's a quote from the manual; "Note: Even though the timing is correct, the copper links may not appear in the positions illustrated. The copper links are used only in the installation of cam chains."

God forbid if I had to get the links lined up too. I would probably miss that particular rotation and have to do it all over again (can't roll clockwise).

Correct, what Will refers to is the copper links, they lose orientation after the first spin after initial engine build, and it's something like 60 crank turns (or so) before they are in.

What we want to focus on are the timing marks on the sprockets forward exhaust has a -., forward intake -.., rear intake -... and rear exhaust -...., and all these are horizontally on the same plane.
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:57 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Dave View Post
It either slipped on the drive sprocket or ......
I think this is the root cause, while you were juggling the cams the chain could have gotten off the triple sprocket..
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Old 01-18-2010, 05:58 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Dave View Post

I know what you're saying, but the book says that the links don't need to be lined up like the picture. Here's a quote from the manual; "Note: Even though the timing is correct, the copper links may not appear in the positions illustrated. The copper links are used only in the installation of cam chains."

God forbid if I had to get the links lined up too. I would probably miss that particular rotation and have to do it all over again (can't roll clockwise).

Ok... not trying to add to the confusion, just a problem I've had myself and have seen others have as well.

Like Dale said, this is easy to have happen and it's a good thing you caught it!
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Old 01-21-2010, 08:48 PM   #11
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It might of slipped when you released the tensioner. If the cam is loaded it will tend to jump the chain when the tension is released. You might want to see if someone has a home made tensioner tool to use so you can spin it backwards and forwards without it jumping time. I can send you mine if needed.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:08 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Will View Post
Have you rolled the engine any? You may need to keep rolling it to get all the dots and links to line up. It's something like 60 turns. It can be deceptive.
BAD IDEA! you could bend a valve if the chain jumped to far.
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Old 01-21-2010, 11:19 PM   #13
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Wink

this happened to me too. no big deal to put it back.
Max once said: it is best to pull the side cover and tyerap the chain to the triple sprocket. as you lift the cams to get to the shims, the chain goes way slack, and drops off the triple sprocket, so when you put the cam back it is off time. you need to pull the cover, pin the crank, align the triple sprocket dots and all the cam dots. watch out you don't bind a valve and bend it when you turn the crank shaft.
then afterwords check the triple sprocket and loctite the bolt.
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Old 01-22-2010, 05:44 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MY_VRSCDX View Post
BAD IDEA! you could bend a valve if the chain jumped to far.
Thanks for the tip
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