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1487cc Turbo 2nd Edition

154K views 701 replies 77 participants last post by  coastrider 
#1 ·
I decided to open a new topic to entertainment you with my 2nd edition engine build and
raise some useful discussion up about a Revolution pushed to it's limit in street use.
My target is 250rwhp@7500rpm 185 ft-lbs@5000rpm, but especially I'm trying to improve reliability, which has been the problem. I'm fustrated to open the engine every 3000km.

So, here we go....

CP Pistons are the old ones, driven 6000km. There are couple of scratches in a skirt because of flying bearing pieces in the engine. They are measured and polished to prevent carbon building to the top. Compression ratio is a mandatory in my case.

Has somebody seen somewhere forged pistons for 4.25" (12:1, 1/4" stroker offset pin)?

New piston rings and at this time end plays are adjusted smaller than previously.

1st 0.60mm
2nd 0.70mm
oil ring 0.35mm

Old K1 rods, new bolts. There are marks of flattened and spread pin bushings under pressure. Pin clearances are still okay, but too narrow or soft pin bushings will be a problem in the future. Better pushing material will be needed some day.





Wiseco cylinder liners are used ones. They are measured and re-honed to RA12 recarding CP's instruction for Ductile moly rings.






Falicon 3/8" stroker full circle crank. As I know there are two types of Falicon full circle ctranks in the market.
The other one is with an open rod pin and an other one with blugged rod pin, like mine. How are oil drillings when the rod pin is nod blugged. Does somebody know what is a backround for changes?
 
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#4 ·
"Engine case walking" has been the biggest problem and some improvements have been made to stabilize the cases. It has been a very challenging machining action because of several reasons. We did the machining three times with my friends in a fine machining shop before we were satisfied.




I will return to to the point when the cases are finished.
 
#6 ·
There has been shy out-blow in head gaskets, when all has been pushed out.
Desided to install ARP 12mm head studs finally.
The Friends in the fine machining shop made a tool to drill and steer threads for the studs.

 
#7 ·
Karzza What are you torquing the heads down to ? R&B Cycles here did the heads for the Indian line before they went out of business. He said they used a film ( called Fuji Film but not photographic kind) that showed where the clamping stress was at different torque amounts. To thier surprise, most even torque was at something like 28 ft/ pounds, but the nuts would work loose from the studs. The higher the installed torque, the greater the distortion, which transferred into the heads & barrels. They finally settled on about 36 ft pounds, which was where the nuts stayed in place. We had that conversation because I was running an Aerocharger on a Buell at the time. They said to increase the head thru bolt torque to something like 48 ft/ lbs in an effort to keep the heads clamped at boost (8 lbs). I had o-ringed heads with copper gaskets. I ended up ripping the stud out of the cases...tried Timeserts with same results. Red also started running a couple ft/pounds less on his nitro motors after that too, if I remember correctly.
 
#19 ·
#12 ·
The latest Ring Cap inctruction from CP Pistons


Stock 1130cc ring gaps:
1st 0.35....0.55mm, replace 0.70mm
2nd 0.40....0.60mm, replace 0.75mm
 
#9 ·
.023 -.024 end gap on the top ring on a turbo motor seems a little tight to me... i would want less on a normally asperated motor but i would be afraid of the butting the ends on a turbo motor... we ran that much ring end gap on a small 930cc 4 cyl kawasaki motor.. we burned up more than a couple pistons trying to run less... never had any trouble with the larger gap..the static leak test was a little higher than a normally aspirated motor of that size but when running the ring seal was excellent without a blowby problem, and never burned another piston when we went to the bigger gap.. very interesting project keep us informed on the progress..
 
#11 ·
we run polydyn coatings on our pistons, the thermal barrier on the tops don`t seem to let carbon build up..the dryfilm coating on the skirts keep the skirts from showing excess wear...i know that those coatings do work ... if you go up to polydyn they have pallets of nextel cup pistons waiting to be coated ...i have a friend that has been setting records with big chevy motors at boneville since the 60`s and he has used those coatings for many years on a lot of motors... they allow a motor to live when an uncoated piston would have failed...
 
#15 ·
I will change a final drive to improve reliability and decrease rpms.
The belt drive is 30/72=2.40 and
a chain drive will be 21/48=2.29
At the same time top/ quartermile final speed will increase 231 km/h -> 24X km/h.

EK Chain is 26mm wide, lets see what kind of problems will appear. Regarding my calculations, there should be 1mm between a 240 tire and the chain.

 
#16 ·
Awesome, where'd you get the bits for the chain drive conversion? 1mm sounds awful tight to me, but thats with zero chain-drive experience, so no real basis. How much distance will there be from the tangent point on the sprocket to the area closest to the tire? Seems like when you switch between drive and coast and the slack and tension in the chain trade sides 1mm would be eaten up pretty quickly on the slack side...
 
#18 ·
Awesome, where'd you get the bits for the chain drive conversion? 1mm sounds awful tight to me, but thats with zero chain-drive experience, so no real basis. How much distance will there be from the tangent point on the sprocket to the area closest to the tire?
I bought the chain and front sprocket from member VR28 and the rear sprocket from Renegade.

1mm is based to estimates, I hope it will be rather 3mm than -1mm. Th bike is in hundreds of pieces, can't see real matching.
 
#17 ·
There is also some progress in engine cases.

14 pcs dowels, 12mm main studs and 12mm head studs are now fitted.
The next step will be to finish crank and thrust bearings' housings (a tool in the picture), check all the clearences and clean the cases.

I will leave an engine brace (girdle) out. I think it is causing more unstability than support.

10mm ARP main stud as a reference in the picture

 
#22 ·
There is also some progress in engine cases.

14 pcs dowels, 12mm main studs and 12mm head studs are now fitted.
The next step will be to finish crank and thrust bearings' housings (a tool in the picture), check all the clearences and clean the cases.

I will leave an engine brace (girdle) out. I think it is causing more unstability than support.

Why do you think the brace is causing unstability?
 
#26 ·
As with most followers of this amazing thread have been wondering, reliability. I can only imagine the deflection going on in the transmission and final drive components. Luckily the inherent nature of the turbo motor only subjects the parts to brief periods of the elevated stress. But I am curious about how much the forces imparting in the power transmission are deflecting the cases leading to the distortion you are seeing. Triple the torque application must be twisting the cases, let alone the transmission shafts and bearing mounts. Outstanding development work your doing there and Thanks to you and members like ibrown, we can observe and read in awe of your accomplishments.
 
#28 ·
I had a (pirate?) GM 3bar MAP-sensor in a "20cm remoted" stock location. Tought, when a timing of MAP-sampling is relevant, better to fit the sensor as near of a port than possible.

A modified KMS 3bar MAP in stock location.

http://kms.vankronenburg.nl/products_sensors.html

 
#29 ·
Would somebody measure exact lenght of head bolt drilling in a stock 1130 cylinder head for me? (about 80mm)
 
#34 ·
just a small update.

Pinned Crank bearings are in.

Running clearances:
vertical 0.04mm and 0.05mm
horisontal 0.07mm
endplay 0.04mm (made 0.03mm more space for trust bearings)

Tested the crank line with a tool when main studs are torqued to 50Nm, 60Nm and 70Nm. A Conclusion, the line is not complety stabil. Did a little fine tuning with borium carbide at 70Nm to get sliding fit for the 60.99mm tool.

Waiting for cylinder heads from a machining shop...


 
#36 ·
ARP 12mm studs had a strange collar in a bottom end. I machined the collar away and extended thread by 5mm. Now the studs can be fitted very deep into the engine case.

I heard from V&H they are going to change a design of 12mm studs as well.

Cometic's 0.060" gaskets are modified to accept the thicker head studs.

If someone has a wrecked Revolution engine case, pls sent me a PM.
I would like to practise "something" with it.

 
#37 ·
Progressed with heads.
New valve guides are in, clearances are intake 0.03mm and exhaust 0.05mm.
Valve seats are re-machined, exhaust for Ferrea F1942, 34.0mm Super Alloy for Turbo Applications. It this the first "nail head" Revolution:)

The exhaust valves need to be shortened by 28.6mm and triple grooves have to be machined.
Then the heads will be ready for assembly.

Have also got some new cam safts...

 
#38 ·
beautiful work on the cyl heads...not to jinx you but i was told by a tech at ferrea that their triple groove valves had been know to break in motors run past 9000rpm for extended periods... we pulled the triple groove valves out of our motor on their advise and installed their single groove valves
 
#39 ·
...thanks lbrown.

This post is very :eek:fftopic: , sorry. The bike project will stay three weeks as it is now.

As a last job I changed Saddle man's cover to a colorful soft leather. I didn't like the original black plastic cover.

 
#40 ·
i enjoy your posts about your bike, beautiful workmanship , we were ordering new valve springs for our bike and the tech at ferrea asked me what valves i was running .. i replied i was running ferrea triple groove valves.. he then asked me what kind of rpm we run the bike.. when i told him that the shift point was 9250 with the rev limiter set at 10250 he told me to replace those valves with the single groove valves as there had been some failures at high rpm`s with the triple groove valves breaking right below the keepers... my boss said get the valves, even though we hadn`t had a problem,, a dropped valve isn`t something i would want to happen...
 
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