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Old 01-06-2013, 01:48 PM   #1
flybigjet
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A little help on my modest performance increase plan?

Gents--

Here's my finalized plan for some modest performance upgrades to my F (just the stuff affecting the powerplant—suspension and other goodies is an entirely different list ). Could I ask you guys to take a look and chime in if there are any pitfalls or errors that you can think of that I missed or need to consider? The goal is to improve the fun factor of the bike for the street and the twisties (no track or drag strip) without getting stupid and breaking the bank— basically, I’m looking to make the bike more fun to ride without worrying about absolute power numbers at the very end of the power band. I also have a few lingering questions that I’d really appreciate an answer to if you have the knowledge. I’m pretty much sold on this configuration (i.e. I don’t want to change to a 2:1, do a big bore, etc.) but would like the warm fuzzy of knowing that the parts will play nice together before I melt my Amex card this week.

- Amsoil Ea high-flow air filter (I like this filter better than the SE or K&N since you it doesn’t have to be oiled and the graph numbers show that airflow is pretty much identical for all three.)

- Topless airbox mod using SE Stage II template cutouts. Also, plastic blocker panels removed from mesh side plates for increased airflow and aluminized heat reflective material installed on bottom of airbox to reflect engine heat.

- Ceramic/Jet Hot coated exhaust headers and pipes. This is mostly to cut down the heat on my legs when stopped on the bike but I like the idea better than wrapping the pipes. Question: Is there a benefit to coat the interior of the pipes as well as the exterior? Question: Any recommendations on the best place to have this done?

- TAB Performance slip-on exhaust w/ 1.75” baffles. Question: Are these the best baffles for overall performance? From what I’ve read guys with the larger 2” or 2.5” baffles have lost tq down low due to the loss of back pressure in the exhaust. Also, the 1.75’s are almost 20 db quieter than the other ones—I’m deaf enough as it is (sigh).

- TTS MasterTune w/ dyno tune & map (tuned for street riding, not max power on the dyno). Question: Will this work well with the Stage II cams and oem narrowband O2 sensors? I found a shop in Denver that manufactures custom cams and they’re very familiar with this software and have their own dyno so I feel fairly confident that they can tune the bike properly.

- SE Stage II cams w/ stock velocity stacks. Question: are these the best stacks to use for streetability/everyday riding? I’ve read a few threads where the short stacks worked better for max upper end/racing but weren’t so great on the lower end/riding around town. It seemed from the posts I read that for street riding, the combination of cams and stock stacks worked well. Question: Are there any cons to installing these cams? Other than an increased fuel bill? Question: What average MPG can I expect with the 1250 motor?

Many, many thanks. I appreciate it.

R.
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Old 01-07-2013, 07:55 AM   #2
VrodPete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
- TTS MasterTune w/ dyno tune & map (tuned for street riding, not max power on the dyno). Question: Will this work well with the Stage II cams and oem narrowband O2 sensors? I found a shop in Denver that manufactures custom cams and they’re very familiar with this software and have their own dyno so I feel fairly confident that they can tune the bike properly.

Yes it will work just fine. That is what I did prior to going BB, and I was very happy with the result. The TTS MT is a GREAT tuner and is designed to work with the narrow band (stock) sensors.

- SE Stage II cams w/ stock velocity stacks. Question: are these the best stacks to use for streetability/everyday riding? I’ve read a few threads where the short stacks worked better for max upper end/racing but weren’t so great on the lower end/riding around town. It seemed from the posts I read that for street riding, the combination of cams and stock stacks worked well.

I tested and dynoed both and was (I believe) the first to post that the short stacks are definately top end power stacks, while the stock stacks with the cams make it much more driveable and fun. I might be the one quoted as saying to throw the short stacks in the trash, and I stand by that. My results were lower TQ and HP below about 4500 - that all went away with the stock units. The only difference is that I was running a 58 TB, and that will cause the low end to lose a few lb of TQ as well. I am certain that you will see gains with the stock TB.

Question: Are there any cons to installing these cams? Other than an increased fuel bill?

NOPE. Just go love them. Your fuel bill will increase, and I would highly recommend you not "cheat" your fuel with mid grade, if you have ever done that in the past. Your motor will want the octane.

Question: What average MPG can I expect with the 1250 motor?

I see high 30's with a little romping, mid-30s with a lot. I think I lost a couple of MPG more when I went BB

Many, many thanks. I appreciate it.

R.
My answers are in-line. Your mileage may vary.
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'08 VRSCAW
1402 Oilman Elephant Motor - Fitzgerald Motorsports Style
(Fourteen-Oh-Twous Copicaticus)


HD SE II Cams, 3/8" Falicon Crank, Carillo Rods, CP Pistons, DA Fitz Engine Brace, Destroyer Injectors, Doherty oil pan, DA Fitz Head Port/Polish/+1mm Valves+springs, DA Fitz 58mm TBs, ARP studs, V&H 2nd Gear+Shift Shaft, Motohouligan Airbox, Wegner 2->1 Exhaust with Supertrapp V5

152.77 HP, 101.06 TQ

Other Toys: '01 BMW K1200LT, '76 Honda CB550F, '81 Mooney M20J

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Old 01-07-2013, 11:23 AM   #3
flybigjet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VrodPete View Post
My answers are in-line. Your mileage may vary.
THANKS. Last question. Springs and retainers, or not required if no other work than listed above? No bb, turbo or sc in my future, and I'm happy with stock everything other than the cams.

R.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:30 AM   #4
Demthios
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Only thing I would suggest to do as well is to get the screws on the throttle bodies tacked down. Some people think that the SEII cams causes some reverb into the throttle bodes the cause them to break, hasn't exactly be proven yet but would be well worth to have a safety net just in case.
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Old 01-07-2013, 11:43 AM   #5
VrodPete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flybigjet View Post
THANKS. Last question. Springs and retainers, or not required if no other work than listed above? No bb, turbo or sc in my future, and I'm happy with stock everything other than the cams.

R.
If it were me I'd do the springs/retainers as well. It's a pretty high lift cam and strengthening that area will give you some protection against float. It's a little more work, but certainly not a show stopper for cost or time.
__________________
'08 VRSCAW
1402 Oilman Elephant Motor - Fitzgerald Motorsports Style
(Fourteen-Oh-Twous Copicaticus)


HD SE II Cams, 3/8" Falicon Crank, Carillo Rods, CP Pistons, DA Fitz Engine Brace, Destroyer Injectors, Doherty oil pan, DA Fitz Head Port/Polish/+1mm Valves+springs, DA Fitz 58mm TBs, ARP studs, V&H 2nd Gear+Shift Shaft, Motohouligan Airbox, Wegner 2->1 Exhaust with Supertrapp V5

152.77 HP, 101.06 TQ

Other Toys: '01 BMW K1200LT, '76 Honda CB550F, '81 Mooney M20J

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Old 01-07-2013, 11:44 AM   #6
VrodPete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demthios View Post
Only thing I would suggest to do as well is to get the screws on the throttle bodies tacked down. Some people think that the SEII cams causes some reverb into the throttle bodes the cause them to break, hasn't exactly be proven yet but would be well worth to have a safety net just in case.
Yes! This is a definite - Fitzgerald does this as a matter of course with TBs. I have had 3 shafts break before he worked out his new tool steel shafts - haven't had a problem since.
__________________
'08 VRSCAW
1402 Oilman Elephant Motor - Fitzgerald Motorsports Style
(Fourteen-Oh-Twous Copicaticus)


HD SE II Cams, 3/8" Falicon Crank, Carillo Rods, CP Pistons, DA Fitz Engine Brace, Destroyer Injectors, Doherty oil pan, DA Fitz Head Port/Polish/+1mm Valves+springs, DA Fitz 58mm TBs, ARP studs, V&H 2nd Gear+Shift Shaft, Motohouligan Airbox, Wegner 2->1 Exhaust with Supertrapp V5

152.77 HP, 101.06 TQ

Other Toys: '01 BMW K1200LT, '76 Honda CB550F, '81 Mooney M20J

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Old 01-07-2013, 11:48 AM   #7
Demthios
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So not to highjack the thread of anything but Pete, the steel shaft's are those the whole shaft that runs under the blades or is it just the top part? I just recently broke a set and was wondering if there was a way if I could tell.
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Old 01-07-2013, 12:53 PM   #8
VrodPete
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Demthios View Post
So not to highjack the thread of anything but Pete, the steel shaft's are those the whole shaft that runs under the blades or is it just the top part? I just recently broke a set and was wondering if there was a way if I could tell.
The shaft is actually split and the blade sits between the two halves of the shaft. When they break it's typically been both shaft halves for me, but that doesn't mean it would be that way for all of the failures. I could see it splitting only on one side of the shaft, and that may be the way they all fail at first. I'm just happy my motor did not ingest any pieces!
__________________
'08 VRSCAW
1402 Oilman Elephant Motor - Fitzgerald Motorsports Style
(Fourteen-Oh-Twous Copicaticus)


HD SE II Cams, 3/8" Falicon Crank, Carillo Rods, CP Pistons, DA Fitz Engine Brace, Destroyer Injectors, Doherty oil pan, DA Fitz Head Port/Polish/+1mm Valves+springs, DA Fitz 58mm TBs, ARP studs, V&H 2nd Gear+Shift Shaft, Motohouligan Airbox, Wegner 2->1 Exhaust with Supertrapp V5

152.77 HP, 101.06 TQ

Other Toys: '01 BMW K1200LT, '76 Honda CB550F, '81 Mooney M20J

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Old 01-07-2013, 01:06 PM   #9
flybigjet
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VrodPete View Post
The shaft is actually split and the blade sits between the two halves of the shaft. When they break it's typically been both shaft halves for me, but that doesn't mean it would be that way for all of the failures. I could see it splitting only on one side of the shaft, and that may be the way they all fail at first. I'm just happy my motor did not ingest any pieces!
Soooo...... replace the shaft with an improved one?

Damn bike is a greenback magnet!

More stuff to add to the list, I suppose.

R.
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Old 01-07-2013, 04:53 PM   #10
pwrman
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Don't know if you like the look or not but the super trapps sound pretty good with out being loud and are tunable with the discs.
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Old 01-09-2013, 10:02 PM   #11
flybigjet
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Well, *here's* a crash and burn.

After reading hours of posts on the SE Stage II cams, I finally had some time to talk to the owners of two local speed shops in Denver yesterday. (Forshadowing hint: Denver is at 5400' plus elevation.)

Shop #1 wanted to take the SE Stage II cams, weld and grind them, slot the sprockets, index the cams and change the springs and retainers after pulling the motor out of the frame to do the job, finally dyno tuning with the MasterTune. Huminah-wha? Price was pushing $3000 which was way out of budget unless I wanted to sleep on the couch for the next few years.

Ooookay-- we're getting into big bore territory..... for cams.

Shop #2 argued pretty hard *against* installing the cams. Why? Because I'm at 5600' as a minimum. The way it was explained to me was that with the longer duration SE cam, the cylinder pressure would drop at altitude and you'd actually make *less* power than with the stock cams. His solution was Topless, new pipes and then dyno tune with the MasterTune for best power with the stock cams.

So, in the midst of preparing for seppuku today, I did some research (harder than you think) on the effect of long duration cams vs. altitude. Here's a quote from Donny Petersen's book, "Donny's Unauthorized Technical Guide to Harley Davidson 1936 to Present":

"The three main factors determining cylinder pressure are the compression ratio modified by camshaft duration and altitude. Higher altitudes lower atmospheric pressure because there is not as much air. Therefore, less air results in less compression. As a generalization, the higher the altitude the less camshaft duration is necessary. This does not apply to visiting higher altitudes as cam duration reduction is not possible without replacing the camshaft. Less duration is necessary when living and riding at higher altitudes most of the time. Increasing cylinder pressure results from more compression and less cam duration. Conversely, a decreased cylinder pressure is the result of less compression and more cam duration."

So. What does this mean in english? If you live at high elevation, the SE Stage II cams will most likely NOT be your friend. You can make it work if you degree the cams for altitude, but you'd better have some pretty serious amounts of disposable income laying around if you want to go that route. For a V-Rod in Denver, a turbo is probably your best bang for the buck.

Sigh. At least I didn't order the cams before I talked to these guys.

R.
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Old 01-10-2013, 06:56 AM   #12
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i have an 07 DX with a 1130 and stage II cams, kn air filter, bub 7 2 n 1 and tuned with a sepst. i love the way she runs now.(except the fuel consumption) if i were to do it again with a muscle i would go stage I with vance and hines slip ons( i think those pipes on a muscle sound grrrreat) an air filter sepst tuned and a 26 tooth front pulley. utilize the power that you have first before you go with a stage II setup. you don't have to use the air box template that they provide in the kit just go topless. just my opinion but it is your money do what you want.
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